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Free Will does not Exist

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posted on Sep, 14 2006 @ 09:46 PM
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If you believe free will exists, you are questioning the Omniscience of the Infinitely Great and Supreme God, where a great act might not be rewarded or a sinful act punished. More importantly, you think that God part of the time does not care about his creation or even abandons his creation. God is connected throughout the Universe beyong the greatest human imagination. In my mind, free will opposes all spiritual laws. When evil occurs, God is teaching you wisdom where you will live to learn in accordance with God's Love and Rule through the Eternal Time-frame of life.

The three steps to enlightenment: 1) Love God!!!, 2) Love all!!!, and 3) Hate evil!!!




posted on Sep, 14 2006 @ 10:12 PM
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Even if God exists, I still believe in free will. Is it not the basis for religion? If God doesn't allow us the freewill to choose what we will, what is the point? I feel that we do have free will, even if God already knows what we are about to decide.



posted on Sep, 14 2006 @ 10:32 PM
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Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
Even if God exists, I still believe in free will. Is it not the basis for religion?

Love and worship of God is the basis for religion. Love is the Guide of the Universe, even if we do not immediately see it. We do will see it in the Eternal Time-frame of Life.


Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
If God doesn't allow us the freewill to choose what we will, what is the point?


God has the Greatest Life in the Universe. We were specially chosen to be created and our duty is to worship the Infintely Great Creator.


Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
I feel that we do have free will, even if God already knows what we are about to decide.


If God already knows what we are about to decide, He has created and set our Life in motion according to HIS WILL, not ours. Nothing to worry about as God is our Guide and is LOVE!!!



posted on Sep, 14 2006 @ 10:41 PM
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So everything that happens is God's Will?



posted on Sep, 14 2006 @ 10:45 PM
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What is the point, then? Why bother? If God has predetermined it all, then why do it at all? It sounds kind of pointless.
I am with you on the not worrying point, I'm not worried. I don't believe that we do not create our own path by making our own choices, though. I feel that there may well be a limit to our options, but I feel that we do have some options. God may know the outcome of all of them, and even which one we will choose, yet I still see it being possible that we make the choice. If I was to play a round of golf with Tiger Woods, he'd win. I know that, even though I didn't plan to lose, or force him to win. Just because I can't see whats ahead in my life doesn't mean that it cannot be seen, especially by God.



posted on Sep, 14 2006 @ 10:50 PM
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Originally posted by Tamahu
So everything that happens is God's Will?




I'm not saying that that is what you(GreatTech) are saying; but if it is, then consider this:





Study: 4,392 Priests Accused of Sex Abuse



First of all, it is worth noting that the Kabbalistic analysis of the number of priests (4392) is 18: "Twilight," related to Black Magic and secret enemies. VERY interesting.




1. The Creator who created all things created homosexuality.




This is in conflict with the teachings of Gnosis. Creation occurs as a ray that descends from the Absolute. That Ray unfolds according to the Law of the Octave, i.e. in seven steps. The further away from the root, the Absolute (1 law), the more complicated things become. (This is well explained on the gnostickabbalah.com site). Creation occurs all along that octave, in accordance with the laws: there is creation in the world of 1 law, in the world of 3 laws, in the world of 6 laws, etc. However, the further away from the root, the more complicated the resulting creation and likewise the further away from the Will of the Father.

For example, in the world of 24 laws (Hod) the Angels are in charge and act in accordance with Divine Will, but as modified by the world of 24 laws: therefore there is mechanicity to a certain degree and room for error. This is how even the gods make mistakes: they act as best they can, but not all of their actions correspond with the Perfection above. Therefore, they accrue a special kind of karma called Katancia.

We in the physical world are under the rule of 48 laws, or even more depending upon our psyche. Humanity, being filled with ego, is controlled by the laws that rule over the ego. Therefore a very degenerated ego, belonging to a very low level of the Abyss, will be very complicated and very dense and ruled by many laws. THAT SAME EGO CREATES: but it creates pain, suffering, degeneration, confusion, ignorance, etc.

Therefore, we must understand that GOD has not created pornography, or abortion, or rape, or homosexuality: MAN HAS CREATED THESE THINGS because mankind is ruled by the ego: desire, lust, pride, etc.
Creation occurs according to the Ray of Creation and the Laws of each Cosmos.

God the Creator does not create directly in the physical world: Laws are established and those laws unfold into more laws, etc. In each level are those intelligences responsible for managing creation. But in the physical world, mankind has failed to establish itself as Malachim: Kings and Queens of Nature, ruling over creation in this level. Instead, we are ruled by DESIRE, and through DESIRE we create SUFFERING.

Homosexuality is the result of excessive desire for sensation built over many lifetimes. This is why all the ancient religions forbade it. Only the degenerated "religions" practiced homosexuality, and they are the ones who are punished by the Law through many types of suffering.

Obviously, the abuse of children by priests is a terrible crime, and it is clear that such behaviors are due to deep psychological darkness. It would be marvelous if those priests could be introduced to the teachings of Gnosis, but it is not likely, as the modern church is completely opposed to it, believing mistakenly that they already have the complete teaching.

Some of the members of the Roman Catholic church may know of ways to awaken without the Arcanum A.Z.F. (White Tantra) but this form of awakening is 100% BLACK. It is very clear in the teachings of Samael Aun Weor that:

1. to awaken positively one MUST work with a spouse of the opposite sex.
2. to awaken positively requires the retention of the sexual energy.



best regards.



posted on Sep, 14 2006 @ 11:14 PM
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Originally posted by Tamahu
So everything that happens is God's Will?


Everything is God's Will. Once we adopt the Eternal Time-frame of Life thinking, we can see the stunning beauty that exists throughout Creation. Those who believe in free will frequently believe that life may not be eternal, is at least partly evil, and that there may be no way out. Those who believe in the Eternal Greatness of God, and God's Will find joy that there is an Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, and Omniloving Being that heals wounds, transforms lives, and creates beings for a special reason: to LOVE HIM. Once we truly Love God, all sins and evil falls from our lives. Any evil that befalls our lives helps create wisdom in our Souls, and this wisdom creates greater communion with the Perfect Creator, God. Everything happens for the greater great!!!



posted on Sep, 14 2006 @ 11:20 PM
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Originally posted by Tamahu

Originally posted by Tamahu
So everything that happens is God's Will?




I'm not saying that that is what you(GreatTech) are saying; but if it is, then consider this:





Study: 4,392 Priests Accused of Sex Abuse



First of all, it is worth noting that the Kabbalistic analysis of the number of priests (4392) is 18: "Twilight," related to Black Magic and secret enemies. VERY interesting.




1. The Creator who created all things created homosexuality.




This is in conflict with the teachings of Gnosis. Creation occurs as a ray that descends from the Absolute. That Ray unfolds according to the Law of the Octave, i.e. in seven steps. The further away from the root, the Absolute (1 law), the more complicated things become. (This is well explained on the gnostickabbalah.com site). Creation occurs all along that octave, in accordance with the laws: there is creation in the world of 1 law, in the world of 3 laws, in the world of 6 laws, etc. However, the further away from the root, the more complicated the resulting creation and likewise the further away from the Will of the Father.

For example, in the world of 24 laws (Hod) the Angels are in charge and act in accordance with Divine Will, but as modified by the world of 24 laws: therefore there is mechanicity to a certain degree and room for error. This is how even the gods make mistakes: they act as best they can, but not all of their actions correspond with the Perfection above. Therefore, they accrue a special kind of karma called Katancia.

We in the physical world are under the rule of 48 laws, or even more depending upon our psyche. Humanity, being filled with ego, is controlled by the laws that rule over the ego. Therefore a very degenerated ego, belonging to a very low level of the Abyss, will be very complicated and very dense and ruled by many laws. THAT SAME EGO CREATES: but it creates pain, suffering, degeneration, confusion, ignorance, etc.

Therefore, we must understand that GOD has not created pornography, or abortion, or rape, or homosexuality: MAN HAS CREATED THESE THINGS because mankind is ruled by the ego: desire, lust, pride, etc.
Creation occurs according to the Ray of Creation and the Laws of each Cosmos.

God the Creator does not create directly in the physical world: Laws are established and those laws unfold into more laws, etc. In each level are those intelligences responsible for managing creation. But in the physical world, mankind has failed to establish itself as Malachim: Kings and Queens of Nature, ruling over creation in this level. Instead, we are ruled by DESIRE, and through DESIRE we create SUFFERING.

Homosexuality is the result of excessive desire for sensation built over many lifetimes. This is why all the ancient religions forbade it. Only the degenerated "religions" practiced homosexuality, and they are the ones who are punished by the Law through many types of suffering.

Obviously, the abuse of children by priests is a terrible crime, and it is clear that such behaviors are due to deep psychological darkness. It would be marvelous if those priests could be introduced to the teachings of Gnosis, but it is not likely, as the modern church is completely opposed to it, believing mistakenly that they already have the complete teaching.

Some of the members of the Roman Catholic church may know of ways to awaken without the Arcanum A.Z.F. (White Tantra) but this form of awakening is 100% BLACK. It is very clear in the teachings of Samael Aun Weor that:

1. to awaken positively one MUST work with a spouse of the opposite sex.
2. to awaken positively requires the retention of the sexual energy.



best regards.



Sex abuse is not tolerated by God and never will be. Laws were made to punish criminals and frequently were justly made into laws. But remember that even the worst criminals in the world need hope, support, and prayers. Never permanently condemn another person as you might be permanently condemning yourself as you are one of God's creation. Every person can be transformed in the Eternal Time-frame of thinking.



posted on Sep, 15 2006 @ 12:21 AM
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Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII

Even if God exists, I still believe in free will.




You were predestined to think that way.


For Christians who believe in free will, run a word search on "elect" in the King James or Revised Standard Versions.

"Elect" is from Greek "eklectays" and it means 'previously chosen.'

More modern versions have watered this word down, sometimes choosing "fore-ordained" or "chosen from the beginning."

A few interesting phrases even show up in the NIV:




Matthew 24:24
For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.

Matthew 24:31
And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

I Timothy 5:21
I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, . . .

Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God's elect and the knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness—

1 Peter 1:1
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia . . .

2 Peter 1:10
Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall . . . .

and others . . .



elect angels?

And interesting study, that.

all the best.
.



posted on Sep, 15 2006 @ 01:58 AM
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dr_strangecraft, do you believe in free will? I do not. God is Infinitely and Carefully cultivating, modifying, and transforming our Soul for Heaven.

Do you believe in double predestination? I believe in triple predestination, where, the third state, only one stage of life, is through God's Will for us to choose being saved versus cursed. Only by reaching this stage, which we all will, can we be cognizant and aware of God's Infinite Greatness.

Everybody is destined for the Infinitely Great Heaven in the Eternal Time-frame. To think differently, is to disbelieve that GOD IS LOVE. And this thinking would be in an undeveloped state.

For all believers and nonbelievers, GOD IS LOVE!!!



posted on Sep, 15 2006 @ 02:18 AM
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Originally posted by GreatTech
Sex abuse is not tolerated by God and never will be. Laws were made to punish criminals and frequently were justly made into laws. But remember that even the worst criminals in the world need hope, support, and prayers. Never permanently condemn another person as you might be permanently condemning yourself as you are one of God's creation. Every person can be transformed in the Eternal Time-frame of thinking.


GT, I love your posts, because you say a lot without saying very much - sometimes less is more. But I detect a contradiction here in what you are saying, and maybe you would like to clarify it. You state that:

-There is no free-will, but destiny.
-Sex abuse is not tolerated by God and never will be.

Now, I understand the destiny argument, for I believe in it and accept the purpose for all things that occur for a common purpose. The problem I have with the above quoted post is that you say something bad is not tolerated by God, when in fact by my understanding and what you also say; everything is predestined.

If a guy goes out and rapes a young girl, society calls it abuse, but by the law of destiny it was meant to happen by the fact that God designed it to happen in the day, time, and manner which it did. So with this, how can you say that God doesn't tolerate sexual abuse when in fact you proclaim he also orchestrated it to happen?



posted on Sep, 15 2006 @ 10:14 AM
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Originally posted by GreatTech
dr_strangecraft, do you believe in free will? I do not. God is Infinitely and Carefully cultivating, modifying, and transforming our Soul for Heaven.



I change my mind occasionally, (I was "fore-ordained" to do so. . . . hee heee). I've been in a predestinish mood for about 3 years now.

That said, I think people tend to be more sensitive to "fate" as they age. It may be the process of watching people around you die, or people make choices where they seem almost impelled to do so, as if by an outside force.

I'll tell you what I do believe:

I believe infinity only exists in God. It is an idea, but science cannot point to any actual (rather than theorized) instance of infinity in nature. Other than in the essence of God, the only other place where eternity "exists" is within the human mind:



Ecclesiastes 3:11

11 He hath made everything beautiful in its time: also he hath set eternity in their heart, yet so that man cannot find out the work that God hath done from the beginning even to the end.



I strongly suspect that God is beyond time. Those of us that will eventually transcend time will see for ourselves that questions like predestiny vs. free will are ultimately semantics caused by our own limited frame of reference: our ignorance of the future, and our forgetfulness of the past.


****

Sometimes I wonder whether humans gain freewill once they have seriously pondered surrender to God:




Luke 4:18b
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed . . .

John 8:31-32; 34-36
To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." . . . . Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

The whole conversation between Pontius Pilatus and Jesus in John 18 turns on freedom and truth, but is too lengthy to quote here; it's worth a look, as well

Galatians 5:13
You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature ; rather, serve one another in love.


.


[edit for quotes and boldface]

[edit on 15-9-2006 by dr_strangecraft]



posted on Sep, 15 2006 @ 10:06 PM
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Originally posted by ben91069
GT, I love your posts, because you say a lot without saying very much - sometimes less is more.


ben91069, thank you for the compliment. Since conception, I tend to be short on words, but long in numbers.

By the way, you are very sharp.

We live in 2 states: exalted, which is love; and contemplative, which is meditating and acting on our wisdom, knowledge, and information on what is right or wrong. God is the Infinite and Eternal Teacher through the Eternal Time-frame of Life and we will always learn from what is Divine, Holy, and Sublime. Given the Eternal Time-frame of Life, even the worst murderer in history will eventually find a spot in Heaven. To think otherwise, would place doubt on the Infinite Greatness of God.

Pray for criminals and those who have had difficulty adapting to Life on earth.

God is Love!!!



posted on Sep, 16 2006 @ 02:48 AM
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it doesnt exist?

but wha bout when i do wha'vah i wnat?


like totally just doing whateavah i wants?


you know doing whatevah i want.

i might decide to do something then be like nah

i changed my mind


so you telling me everything is predestined fate?


no chaos exists?


why doesnt "god" save everyone from the suffering, all the starving children, the people dying from aids?

help those who are afflicted with unholy pain?


stop wars?


stop serial killers?

does "god" wish they kill people? what about that candain guy?

he didnt have the free will to go and shoot someine?

instead god was loike yo


i think this foool should shoot an innocent woman and wound others?


rly.



posted on Sep, 16 2006 @ 02:55 AM
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I believe Free Will does exist.

We all hold a certain amount of responsibility to the decisions we make. If one of us are at fault, it is our mistake not the predetermined outcome of a higher behing.

If I were to enter a store and start blazing, that would be my decision. Just as it is not to enter that store.



posted on Sep, 16 2006 @ 03:09 AM
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Originally posted by ben91069
Now, I understand the destiny argument, for I believe in it and accept the purpose for all things that occur for a common purpose. The problem I have with the above quoted post is that you say something bad is not tolerated by God, when in fact by my understanding and what you also say; everything is predestined.

If a guy goes out and rapes a young girl, society calls it abuse, but by the law of destiny it was meant to happen by the fact that God designed it to happen in the day, time, and manner which it did. So with this, how can you say that God doesn't tolerate sexual abuse when in fact you proclaim he also orchestrated it to happen?

I would bet that the answer is that we do have the responsibility and ability to make choices, and therefore we have freewill. If we didn't, how could you honestly say you chose to follow God? If you have no choice, then how can you be saved? I think that serial killers, serial rapists, child abusers, and habitual violent criminals cannot avoid taking responsibility for their crimes. They can claim, it was Gods will, or the devil made me do it, but I don't buy it.
I don't know if there is a God, but am open to the possibility of it. But my views on what God may be like are far different than what I see churches describing. In this material world, people can harm others, help others, or whatever. But, whatever they choose to do, I believe that they chose it, and that if there is a God, that God would make freewill a necessity, because without it then this whole thing is just one big meaningless rehearsal where all the actors lines are written for them, and you already know the ending, so whats the point?



posted on Sep, 16 2006 @ 05:24 AM
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Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
I would bet that the answer is that we do have the responsibility and ability to make choices, and therefore we have freewill. If we didn't, how could you honestly say you chose to follow God?


A very valid point BG13. I believe in destiny. It is my personal conclusion, because I dealt with everything you have said in your post and it lead me to this belief. Hopefully you deal with me for a moment as I try to counter your thoughts on my viewpoint of destiny vs. freewill. I have found that in light of the grand scheme, neither one is condemning in the end, but are notable signatures of the individuals final purpose, which I will not get into here. When it comes to responsibility, it goes hand in hand with free will. If we claim responsibility, then we also accept that we had a hand in doing something pro or con to make an event happen. This is fairly straightforward don't you think? Free will automatically makes us responsible for any and all actions.

The second point is that I used to be in a church a loooooong time ago and heard the message of choosing God. I no longer think that. I do not believe that we choose God, but rather he chooses us. It is much like Jesus and his disciples. People did not flock to him when he decided to start preaching his message, but rather he went out and chose his disciples. The same is with God. My belief is that we are chosen and not the other way around. This is the only way I can reconcile anyone being saved.



If you have no choice, then how can you be saved?


The problem with this statement, is that it is tainted with religious doctrine of the saved go to heaven and the rest burn in hell. This is true, but is a figurative language describing those who become like God and those who remain dwelling on earth forever. If you understood this, you wouldn't scorn the idea that God chooses us as much. Many people use this argument that if God chooses us for damnation or bliss as being unfair, because they fall back on the doctrine that the bad will burn like a marshmellow on a stick in the hands of a child at their first campfire. This is not true, but a religious doctrine based on taking the bible literally. The only way one can be saved is by God. To define salvation, you must first define what exactly the Kingdom of Heaven is and what it is not. I will give you a hint; all are saved.



I think that serial killers, serial rapists, child abusers, and habitual violent criminals cannot avoid taking responsibility for their crimes. They can claim, it was Gods will, or the devil made me do it, but I don't buy it.


Whether they claim responsibility or not, everyone can and does use the same arguments for any little thing they do. It makes no difference whether you do a big crime or a little one in God's eyes if you are judging good and bad. We are not called to judge good and bad, however. If you have read the account of Adam and Eve, this is the one forbidden fruit that we are not supposed to eat of - the tree of knowledge of good and bad, for it produces death in everyone. The fruit of this tree produces judgment and we can claim the devil(serpent) made me do it but God told the first man and woman and their offspring (us), that we are forbidden to eat of it. With this in mind, when we judge even serial killers, serial rapists, child abusers, and habitual violent criminals we too take a bite of the tree of good and bad and it produces judgement, death, and hatred.




I don't know if there is a God, but am open to the possibility of it. But my views on what God may be like are far different than what I see churches describing. In this material world, people can harm others, help others, or whatever. But, whatever they choose to do, I believe that they chose it, and that if there is a God, that God would make freewill a necessity, because without it then this whole thing is just one big meaningless rehearsal where all the actors lines are written for them, and you already know the ending, so whats the point?


Well, I commend you on having the possibility of God in your heart, for it shows that my concept of destiny is working to the point that God is slowly calling you. It works both ways. You feel you are swaying toward the side truth by your own beliefs, when in fact it is God who is turning the tables for you and eventually everyone. Expect a lot more of this for you and countless others, for it will get worse in the world before it gets better. My opinionated advice is to stay away from church doctrines and the teachings of man made churches. I am not saying to consider church goers filth, but just to use your own mind allow God to provide you your information and guidance. Weigh the words of churches in a fine balance and measure every gram to see if it is pure or just plain BS.

The latter point is that it is very much like a play, movie, script. We are all hired cast members. Don't be bitter about your part, for some are walk-ins, some cameos, some are supporting roles, and some are leads. The daily screenings of the production are not in any way as great as the finished opening night. The story has been written and the editors hands are close to finishing the master to be copied and distributed for the opening night.



posted on Sep, 16 2006 @ 05:42 AM
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Originally posted by ben91069
Whether they claim responsibility or not, everyone can and does use the same arguments for any little thing they do. It makes no difference whether you do a big crime or a little one in God's eyes if you are judging good and bad. We are not called to judge good and bad, however. With this in mind, when we judge even serial killers, serial rapists, child abusers, and habitual violent criminals we too take a bite of the tree of good and bad and it produces judgement, death, and hatred.
Weigh the words of churches in a fine balance and measure every gram to see if it is pure or just plain BS.
Don't be bitter about your part, for some are walk-ins, some cameos, some are supporting roles, and some are leads.

I agree about the point that we are not to judge, and I do try, but I still do judge, and have yet to meet anyone who is not at least a little judgemental. I particularly have difficulty when it comes to the very worst types of repeat offenders such as serial killers. To be honest, I want them dead, and though I know I shouldn't think that way, I have yet to learn how to change my mind on that one. I agree on weighing words too. Buddha made a number of comments on that one, telling listeners not to believe him unless they felt it was true for them.
I just want you to know I am not bitter about my role, whatever it is.
And about destiny, I can say that I believe that there is a reason for everything, and that we all have a purpose. I don't know the reason or purpose but feel quite strongly that there is one.
As for God, I am not worried about whether I ever believe in God. Like you said, we are all saved. I like that.
Blessings.



posted on Sep, 18 2006 @ 11:30 PM
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To accept free will, is to deny God's Omniscience. Do you think that God would allow an evil force to be developed to threaten His own survival? Notice that I used the word "allowed" as God created it to happen as he creates all things to happen. The only impossibilities of the Universe are that God cannot be subjugated to a higher power and that God is not Omniscient. The only use of the word impossibility is denying God's Omniscience and Omnipotence. He knows the words you will say 17 days from now. God is Life. He touches each of our senses, hearts, souls, minds, and strengths constantly. We are all on a ride through destiny.

When we accept free will, we are on a Satanic ride through destiny where we think we created part of the Universe. Only God created the Universe!!!



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 12:17 AM
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How do you know this?

I mean has God got a Blog somewhere where he is revealing all this tidbits?



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