Speech From Pope Outrages Muslim Leaders

You know, it's occurred to me that maybe, just maybe, both Christianity and Islam are two sides of the same coin, to use the term loosely. To illustrate, let me point out that both religions were started by pacifists preaching peace. Shortly thereafter, they began to get persecuted. Well, Christianity was persecuted from it's inception, until it got a foothold in the region.

Christianity was started by a pacifist, preaching the belief of common brotherhood and unity with God, and the understanding that God would see to the needs of those that followed him. The followers were persecuted by the Romans until Rome itself was taken over by Constantine, and Christianized. Once that happened, the Roman Empire fell, since the Christian tenets prevented the barbaric behaviour exhibited by the previous Roman State.

Islam was started by a pacifist also, and yet his followers took his words literally, and went out and FORCEFULLY coerced people into following him, which wasn't the way he wanted them to be brought to his teachings. Islam, in it's truest form, is just as peaceful as Christianity is however.

As has been stated before, you'll find certain "radical" Christians out knocking on doors, searching for anyone "that hasn't found God", or hasn't "let God into their lives". That being said, when someone makes the declarative statement that they no longer want bothered by them, then those people, representing that particular denomination, will leave and not return. They won't go post a picture of you're face on the local telephone pole, calling for your execution. Why? Because that's not how we Christians do things. We, at our core, want people to come to Christianity of their own volition, not by force. Otherwise, it's not genuine, and most importantly, they won't stay a Christian.

Since I don't know how someone is supposed to be converted to Islam, then I will let someone of better integrity on that matter explain that. I just wanted to point out the main differences between the two, and why one isn't any better than the other. Everyone has their faults, no matter what they believe. No one's perfect, but the least we can do is to try to strive for perfection. We wil never reach there, but it's that quest for understanding that brings us all together as one collective group, to try and figure out the best way to proceed.

What's my aim by making these statements? My aim is to unite everyone, regardless of religious beliefs, under one roof, to try to come to the same understanding; that we all are equals, regardless of who we believe in. We also have to all understand that just because someone doesn't follow the same God that we do, that that doesn't make them any better or worse than anyone else. It just makes them different, which was the way that God wanted it to be in the first place. Or at least that's what I think about it.

Thanks for listening,

TheBorg

Borg,
The are both monotheacial, and the age of the two is not all that far apart. I am no thelogien but as I understand it a big problem other religens have is the refrence to genology in the christian prayers. Frankly I think if the people who wrote it knew of the problems it has caused it would have never been written that way

Although some Muslim leaders have made positive statments to the Popes repeated apologies some are still sayings its not enough.

Cairo's al Azhar centre for Islamic learning, a leading authority for Sunni Muslims, and the Muslim Brotherhood, the Arab world's largest group of political Islamists, said Benedict's renewed appeals for dialogue were not enough. "None of what he has said amounts to the clear apology that al Azhar has asked for. It's just a way of avoiding the previous declarations in order to calm the anger," al Azhar spokesman Osama Hassan said .

This time the Pope met with diplomats from 22 primilary Muslem countries. Where many have accepted his apology some have still not. It would seem to me that those who want peace would have put this behind them by now.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
It is true. Try studying your history.

I'm part Russian, part Tribal American and not a Muslim. It's actually not my history, but I have studied it. If you speak of the incidents in Mecca, etc, I seriously doubt Christians would have stood by and been killed off. Muslims were attacked [Mohammed, et al] and they fought back. This is different to Muslims doing the attacking.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
I dont see Christians rioting. Protest and writing complaints is different from death threats and religous leaders tolerating and encouraging their flock to go around attacking or killing people.

There are Christians who encourage violence. The link I posted prior, speaks of a Militant Christian group that killed 70 people at a School mostly children. Also Christians get there way. Take the two recent instances: Islamic Cartoons, Pope Town [T.V. show]. Pope town got cancelled when primary complaints were heard, Islamic Cartoons got shown after the complaints about them were made.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
What do you mean nothing happens. Of course something happened. Muslims are throwing a massive tissy fit because someone was pointing out that Muslims in their history were just as violent and blood thirsty as Christians. perhaps a bit more.

They protested. That's nothing, the Pope barely has said anything about it either. Spin and more spin doesn't count. If hundreds of Muslims had been attacking the Vatican City, blowing themselves up in Italy, etc, then something would be happening.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
South Park is on TV here. It is ultra blasphemous towards Christianity. yet its being shown. Ive also seen people on TV mocking or attacking Christian beliefs.

I've seen them do it about Muslims? T.V. show "Best of the Worst" on Channel 4 did just this weekend.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
So far, none of them are in hiding or under police protection. The show did not get shown on BBC. So what? Christians protests reasonably without threating mass murder. So what? There are enough mocking shows to take its place. Look at Monty Python's Life of Brian. or some of the skits on Little Britain.

Nor are the vast majority of people who criticise Islam. I do not see Grand Sheikh Mohammed Sayed Tantawi of the Al-Azhar mosque of Cairo in hiding, when he called all suicide bombers the enemies of Islam. I do not see the editor of the Sun in hiding.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Your point is..................

Point is, when Christians complain shows are taken off of the air. When Muslims complain [even peacefully] nothing happens.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Probably because theres enough Muslim butchery of Christians and other infidels going on in Africa that its a bit hard to notice what a few Christians do. 40 people? A minor scuffle compared to the millions of "infidels" in Darfur getting the shaft from Muslims.

So that makes it alright? You live in a twisted world. Oh yeah, by the way the incident was actually started by Christians in Nigeria. The Muslims they had a problem with, lived several hundred miles away. But I am sure, it's all fine because those Muslim Children had it coming - right?

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Obviously if you read my post you wouldnt have made a silly comment like that. I stated as much that Christians have been pretty bad. Ive been on the recieving end of some Christian "love". So what? It doesnt means Muslims are any better, more justified, or even rational in their fits and tirades.

Then why the above statement:

A minor scuffle compared to the millions of "infidels"

You were trying to justify Christian extremism against Muslims.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
I can show you far many more instances of Muslim unprovoked brutality towards anyone not Muslim. Hell, I witnessed enough in a certain cesspool called Saudi Arabia.

How do you work out "more instances"? Deaths or events? I am sure, Muslims are still behind in the death stake by a long way. Take Iraq, after all Bush was told by God and he's a Christian. Those deaths fall on him.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Never said they werent. The topic here is Muslims throwing a fit about the Popes comments. especially when the Pope was right. islam was violent and confrontational from its birth. Christianity took about 400 years to get there.

Again not true. Show historical texts that display Islam as being violent, not written by Christians, etc. [The ones who had the most to gain by painting them as "evil". The ones who admit to trying to kill off Islam when it was created.]

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Now this is the funniest thing yet. Everytime I see the media, it always tries and portrays the Muslims as poor victims of intolerance. Instead of showing both sides. Including intolerance from the Muslims themselves.

Oh that's utter lies.

Fox News, CNN, The Sun, BBC World News, always show over and over images of Muslims being violent. Never once have I seen World News show interviews where the Grand Sheikhs have been calling for an end to the terrorism and so on and so fourth.

For those of you who are keeping up with this hear is the Popes forth apology.

The meeting, carried live in its entirety by al-Jazeera as well as by Vatican television, was the Pope's latest attempt to draw a line under the fierce controversy that has raged since he quoted a Byzantine emperor describing Islam as "evil and inhuman", and the Prophet Mohamed as favouring conversion by force.

One Vatican expert conceded that the "earthquake" caused by those slighting references had "undoubtedly done damage to the Pope's image and his credibility in some parts of the Muslim world," but said yesterday's speech "will repair the damage and begin healing the wounds".

It was the fourth occasion on which Pope Benedict has attempted to eat his words since the fateful address to professors and students of Regensburg University in Germany a fortnight ago. Those words have became so notorious that yesterday he did not even spell out why he and 40 Muslim delegates - the remainder representing Islamic organisations in Italy - were gathered together in the hall of the Swiss Guards at his summer palace in Castel Gandolfo, south of Rome.

and the link

As far as i'm concerned any type of fanaticism is dangerous, wether its religious of other. Also i dont believe that prying at a church or mosque is going to make me stand out from the millions of people that pray to their omnipotent being. Do i believe in god yes until proven wrong, am i a catholic yes, am i a church goer hells no.

And here I thought the Pope was perfect? How can God's vicar make a mistake? Man, my entire faith has been ruined! Ohh well, back to paganism!! LOL!

Let me ask a question. What doesn't outrage Muslims?
They seem to over react to just about everything.
I'm a 2nd generation American whose ancestry is 100% Italian. If I got ticked off every time I saw some sort of Italian parody, I'd be in a constant rage. This constant outrage thing is getting quite tired IMHO.

Originally posted by lombozo
I'm a 2nd generation American whose ancestry is 100% Italian. If I got ticked off every time I saw some sort of Italian parody, I'd be in a constant rage. This constant outrage thing is getting quite tired IMHO.

I know what you mean. But here is a question for you(and everyone?) what is the lesson "we" can learn from the seemingly childish antics of eastern Muslims?

*I agree that they seem to over react everytime something tangentally comes close to being moderatly offensive - but are "we" in the west under-reacting to what is going on? The rpesident takes rights, and nothing happens, Removes segments of the constitution and nothing happens, declares torture to be OK - and still nothing.... Maybe we can learn something from them?

Originally posted by Waiting2awake

Originally posted by lombozo
I'm a 2nd generation American whose ancestry is 100% Italian. If I got ticked off every time I saw some sort of Italian parody, I'd be in a constant rage. This constant outrage thing is getting quite tired IMHO.

I know what you mean. But here is a question for you(and everyone?) what is the lesson "we" can learn from the seemingly childish antics of eastern Muslims?

*I agree that they seem to over react everytime something tangentally comes close to being moderatly offensive - but are "we" in the west under-reacting to what is going on? The rpesident takes rights, and nothing happens, Removes segments of the constitution and nothing happens, declares torture to be OK - and still nothing.... Maybe we can learn something from them?

Hmmm, very interesting point. I understand what you're saying, and to a degree, albeit a very small degree, I do think that you may be right. I believe that Americans do tend to act like sheep for the most part, and a very small minority speak up against what's going on. In fact most of us here on ATS are the ones that speak up against it. That being said however, the Muslim community seems to go way overboard. The original topic of this thread was what the Pope said. Now as I recall, the Pope merely quoted an ancient text. They were not his own words.
Frankly when I hear that "you must convert to Islam, or be killed", what the Pope said rings true. "Islam is spread by the sword."
IMHO, if the muslim community does nothing about the atrocities that are committed, then they will be labeled as inhuman.
9/11 was done in the name of Islam.
The many many civilian beheadings, are done in the name of Islam, with the murderers who are too cowardly to even show their faces, scream Allah Akbar (God is Great) through their hoods as the innocent persons head is being sawed off.
Shall I go on?
If I am mistaken, please educate me, as I believe what I've said.
They can go and committ these atrocities, and they are indeed atrocities, and the Muslim community does nothing. But draw a simple cartoon, and all hell breaks loose in the Muslim community. Riots, beatings, killings, effigy burning, ....etc.
I think it's way, WAY over the top. Frankly, I think the Muslim community should clean up their own back yard. There is a reason why they are perceived the way they are. I am sure that the vast majority of Muslims are good people, so instead of "demanding apologies from the Pope, or Newspapers, or whomever else is the target of their ire that day, they should take care of the extremists who give their sacred religion a bad name.
Just my 2 cents.

I can not, nor would I try, to defend the actions of those that will fire bomb a church, or attck people. I can not condone violence. The idea of chanting "death to [insert name here]" I find at best silly, and worse, a threat. There is probably no disagreement between us on their actions.

My question(to myself really) was that why would the Pope say that? Surely he, or his handlers knew how it would be received - they chose to leave those quotes in there(Inidently I agree with the quotes, but that is another issue all together LOL) and they had to know what would happen. So why do it? Surely the point could have been made in endless ways that would not upset people already too excitable?

For my original point, I don't really mean for the West to start chanting death to whomever, or burning things in efegy, but rather to actually start to care about these issues. If the majority of people are OK with what is going on in America, then OK, the majority have spoken - but when the majority doesn't know about an issue, and doesn't care enough to learn about the issue, the politicians get to do whatever they want by proxy - which is what has been going on(IMO) for decades. This is no longer a nation for the people, and unless some people start to care about it, and be willing to do something(?) about it, then it is lost and the great paraphrased quote my grandfather taught me will have come true...

" Truely, our freedoms and liberty are not in any dager from an invading army marching over the hills. The true enemy of our freedoms is ourself's. We will give away one freedom at a time, one right at a time to those that promise to govern and protect us, and in the end it will be us, that voluntarily give away what so many died for us to have"

Originally posted by Waiting2awake

My question(to myself really) was that why would the Pope say that? Surely he, or his handlers knew how it would be received - they chose to leave those quotes in there(Inidently I agree with the quotes, but that is another issue all together LOL) and they had to know what would happen. So why do it? Surely the point could have been made in endless ways that would not upset people already too excitable?

Waiting,
From what I have gathered the speach made by the Pope was a quote from a leader from a long time ago and it was taken way out of proportion. You can decide for your self [url=http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2006/september/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20060912_university-regensburg_en.html]hear.[/url ]
I still dont think that speach is any reason for violence including killing the sixty fife year old nun that spent her adult life helping people in Afracia.

Grover,

I did read the english translation of the lecture, and I personally do not find any fault with the item. That stated though, even without being a historian or understanding all the idiosycracies(sp?) of the Muslim faith, I would know how such a statement would have been received. I mean it doesn't take much to know they will freak out right? And yet the Pope said it... Clearly it was a well thoughtout lecture, and clearly the Pope(and his advisors) is not an idiot. So, if I knew how they would react, I have to assume so did the Pope.

That to me is an interesting question. Did the Pope intentionally stir the pot? If so, why would he offer an appolgy later? I suppose the most logical answer is that the Pope didn't think they would react that way, but that seems to be naive to me...

lombozo have you ever wondered, it might be because of things such as this:

IMHO, if the muslim community does nothing about the atrocities that are committed, then they will be labeled as inhuman.

The Muslim Community does. In fact, I've posted three times what they've done as have many other members in this thread alone. The problem is, Western Media is slanted. If Muslims Riot and kill people, this is front page news. When Christians Riot [like they did this week] and kill Muslims, it's not on any British media station or newspaper.

Frankly, I think the Muslim community should clean up their own back yard. There is a reason why they are perceived the way they are.

Maybe the United State's should also do the same? When they invaded Iraq and didn't listen to the head of Sunni Islam, it really stopped being his problem. When he told the U.S. like many people did that if they invaded Iraq it would breed radical Islam to a new level, it stopped being his problem. They can only do so much and everytime they try the West is making it worse.

Leaders of the Cathloic church in Detroit have met with muslim leaders to try to smooth over feathers that were ruffled by the Popes speach in Germany.

sorce link

The leader of the Archdiocese of Detroit met Thursday with area Muslim leaders as part of an effort to strengthen Catholic-Islamic relations that were strained by Pope Benedict XVI's remarks linking Islam and violence.

Cardinal Adam Maida, leader of nearly 1.3 million Catholics in six counties surrounding Detroit, told reporters that the meeting should not be seen only as a reaction to the pope's remarks earlier this month that angered some in the Islamic world.

This time it is not the Pope trying to make things better, it is the leaders of the local church. Over all I think this is a good thing. Not for trying to smooth over ruffled feathers, but because the spiritual leaders of a community should work together to try to make things better in the community.

Hijacked plane in Turky may have been a message to the Pope regarding his visit to Turky.

"The hijackers wanted to send a message to Pope Benedict XVI and protest the pope's upcoming visit to Turkey," noted Muftuoglu.

Muftuoglu indicated that as soon as legal procedures are completed in Italy, the THY jet will fly to Istanbul, the largest city of Turkey.

sorce link

I exspect many people and most of all the Swiss Gaurd will be wondering how things will traspire during the Popes visit to Turky.

Originally posted by RedGolem
Hijacked plane in Turky may have been a message to the Pope regarding his visit to Turky.

No, it wasn't, it was a Turkish Christian who didn't want to serve in the military.

The Italian security official said the hijacker was seeking to have a message delivered to the pope, but said he did not know what it was.

Ekinci had converted to Christianity and was an army deserter and anti-militarist who fled to Albania in 2006, according to the private Dogan news agency and NTV television in Turkey.

Ekinci, 28, sent a letter to Benedict on Aug. 30, asking for help not to return to military service in Turkey, saying he was a Christian, Dogan reported.

abclocal.go.com...

Originally posted by Jamuhn


No, it wasn't, it was a Turkish Christian who didn't want to serve in the military.

Jamuhn,
thanks for the correction
However my origional concern does still stand. How will all this affect the Popes visit to Turkey? How he is seen as dealing with this little incident will have some play on the matter I do think.

There is a whole new twist to this story now. A Fatwa for the death of the Pope has now been issued.
thred

Acting on behalf of the International Islamic Front (IIF) for Jihad Against the Crusaders and the Jewish People, which is headed by Osama bin Laden, the Markaz-ud-Dawa (MUD) of Pakistan, which is the political wing of the Lashkar-e-Toiba (LET), is reported to have issued a Fatwa calling upon the Muslims to kill Pope Benedict XVI for a recent speech of his delivered on September 12,2006, which has been projected as anti-Islam by Al Qaeda and other jihadi terrorist organisations of the world.

saag

My opinion of this, in the most politicaly correct mannor that I can put it is, I think we are seeing the worst of people who have a little bit of infulance in a seculer groop.

The Pope is still going to turkey this week. As to be expected many are still angry with the Pope despite the multiple apologizes.

Thousands of demonstrators gathered in a square in Istanbul Sunday to protest Pope Benedict's visit to Turkey later this week. The protesters say the pope is not welcome, until he properly apologizes for comments made about Islam two months ago. Sabina Castelfranco reports for VOA from Istanbul.

It was the largest anti-pope demonstration so far in Turkey. Pope Benedict begins his four-day pilgrimage in Ankara on Tuesday. But many at Sunday's protest made clear that the pope is not welcome.

sorce