Originally posted by DJMessiah
Incorrect. People who make these statements don't look hard enough. Muslims all over the world denounce terrorism and violence, and yet the media will not focus on us. I don't consider extremists as "Muslim," due to the fact that they go against the teachings of the Quran (there is no compulsion in religion, give peace when it is asked, do not be the agressors, value all human life over killing, respect other faiths.) I do my part in educating the public, so don't think we Muslims do not preach peace.

This is something I can agree with.
It's even somewhat historically represented.

Muslims could marry Christians and Jews, at certain points in their history, without having to subvert their spouse, since they were sister religions. I remember having to read novels from the time Britain's ruling the middle east, especially in India, where yhis theme was over-played. You can't find most of those novels, as they are out of print.

Originally posted by Odium
jlc163, where to begin?

Let’s pick out this bit first:

(I.e. Spainards are better than others and only Spain shall prevail, and btw, Spain is ONLY catholic.)

Spain now is not only Catholic, you must know this. So I assume you must mean during the Spanish Inquisition. Granada ring a bell? Boabdil of Granada maybe? Islam was banished from Spain in 1492 but it still did exist there during the Inquisition, however the Inquisition itself only had power over baptized Christians.

Sorry, but Spain has never been a solidly Catholic Nation.

Reference: Hugh Kennedy, Muslim Spain and Portugal: A Political History of al-Andalus,

Over-exaduation, and was not meant to be seen as if I directly believed that. Should have put quotes, to read like this:
(I.e. "Spainards are better than others and only Spain shall prevail, and btw, Spain is ONLY catholic.")
There was an expulsion, wasn't worried about why, but you can't get rid of one faith altogehter no matter how hard you try.
It would be like me going on and on about being raised Catholic.
I wasn't directly raised Catholic, just raised around so many Catholics I could choke on them, quite literally.
My point was that much of the Spanish Inquisition was about keeping Spain in control, not just some in-church thing. (This is a bit easier to see by how they had their issues with England, during this time period, some of it was jsut political.) Making it lean more towards a Nationalist issue than most people, who want to force this into an ONLY religion issue, would like. The only point I was making.

I guess I'm going to have to find a wanking smiley to make it clear when I'm not so hard up on my point that I'm overstepping.

The ONLY reason it is failing is because it's crumbling into a Socialist state (socialsist, in basic terms=democracy+communism),

No it’s not. I suggest you read over some socialist books, Robert Owen is a good start.

Socialism and Communism, only has something to do with each other in the minds of Marxists. Communism existed hundreds of years before the word Socialism ever did. About 1780 [Robert Owne] to then 1516 [Thomas More]. Socialism never has been Democracy + Communism.

Your opinion. You act like I haven't read any of it. It's called an opinion.

Besides, it's like trying to lay all these out on a color spectrum, not that they are made from each other, but that they do share some similar triats, so it looks as if they were directly made from taking bits and pieces of each other. I am trying to limit how much I'm writing, here. Socialism, with respect to certain beliefs, traditionally falls between our governemnt and a Communist goverment's basic set up.

Hell, no 2 Communist Governments are going to be exactly the same, even 2 people can't agree on all the tennants of such governements.

I still beleive that your point of view on it is wrong, and blatantly so.

Which is why I stated, AT MOST he was a pagan with a soft spot for Wagner.

Nope.

Hitler believed in Positive Christianity.

Reference: Richard Steigmann-Gall, The Holy Reich, Cambridge University Press, 2003

Good, you follow him.
I pointed out, that though he outright dismissed 2 other records as being copies, he only cast enough doubt on 1, supposedly the closes to the source.
I didn't think he did a good enough job to fully dismiss it.

And you really haven't paid all that mcuh attention, have you, to my thoughts. There's a "christian" and then there's a chrisitian.

As he wasn't immersed, as an adult mind, for the remission of sins, confessing to seek only him, and continuing to seek diligently after him, after counting the cost, so he is no Christian by the Book that started this whole mess.
As I said, at the least, he is no christian. I don't really care who the hell accepted him.

I have an extremely limited definition as to what a Chrisitan is, as I alluded to in some of my Bush comments...and it's not just me. There are whole gropus that wouldn't accept his "acceptance in a church", not because of what he did to the Jews, but because of his way he was accepted into the faith. What he did to the Jews is a completely seperate issue. It's the same reason why they expect to see Jeffrey Dahmer and not Hitler.

Want me to reference it to mutliple people with degrees for you? I can. I can get them to directly talk to you via email, too.

Originally posted by tkmelb

Originally posted by bih
I dont know what to say but who would listen to a child molesting retarded pope anyway

[edit on 17-9-2006 by bih]

Well don't say anything as you have added nothing to this thread with your totally immature and offensive comments.


I await the day when every day catholics start burning effigies (sp?) of people that insult their religion, could start with the creators of South Park............ Oh wait a minute 21st Century Catholics arn't mental and don't have such thin skin, if they did then this world would be in kaos as a billion people protest every day over another attack on their religion.

Edit : typo



[edit on 17/9/06 by tkmelb]

and you are here what?? like I said how many alone in the USA have been charged with molesting little kids.at least you dont hear that from muslims

Originally posted by RedGolem
With every news relic he goes a little bit farther. Now one must wonder what the people want who are still complaining about the situation?

Well, now you're beginning to ask the questions that I've been asking since I first heard about this story. I never understood the big deal with it myself. If some people are going to get all flustered because they can't contain their own emotions over a simple opinion spoken by someone else, then I think they need to stop listening to anyone period. It'd prolly be the best thing for them.

To be fair though, there's a lot of Muslim clerics that like to criticize the West and other religions all of the time, yet we don't hear about Christians and Jews going and blowing themselves up to vent their anger at the situation. I think they just can't handle the criticism because they figure the Pope's right. Perhaps, they just wanted a reason to be able to justify attacking Christians. I certainly hope that's not the case, since that means that they've forgotten their own history.

Looks like I'll be praying for me some people tonight.

TheBorg

Originally posted by TheBorg

To be fair though, there's a lot of Muslim clerics that like to criticize the West and other religions all of the time, yet we don't hear about Christians and Jews going and blowing themselves up to vent their anger at the situation. I think they just can't handle the criticism because they figure the Pope's right. Perhaps, they just wanted a reason to be able to justify attacking Christians. I certainly hope that's not the case, since that means that they've forgotten their own history.

That is very well said Borg, thanks!
I also think that about all of us who are spiritual have been doing quite a bit of praying. Although be it in adation to that I think maby we should send an E-mail to the Pope to tell him what we think of this situation. Not being of that denomantion I dont know if it would be apropate for me though. Maby will half to ponder that a little bit more.

I'm still trying to figure out why the Pope even bothered to make a formal apology to the Muslim community for the statements that he quoted. Everyone has a right to an opinion, but they don't have a right to go off and kill someone over said differences in opinion.

TheBorg

Originally posted by TheBorg
I'm still trying to figure out why the Pope even bothered to make a formal apology to the Muslim community for the statements that he quoted. Everyone has a right to an opinion...

Im no fan of the pope, however I think his apology was a noble act and that he apologized because he wanted to stop the violent response to his previous remarks. Whether his remarks were accurate or not, imho he did what a man of God should do in this particular instance.

Originally posted by TheBorg
I'm still trying to figure out why the Pope even bothered to make a formal apology to the Muslim community for the statements that he quoted. Everyone has a right to an opinion, but they don't have a right to go off and kill someone over said differences in opinion.

TheBorg

Borg,
yes it is for that very reason that I was thinking those of use that have been reading this thred should send an e-mail to the Pope to say what we think about makeing all these apologies. I was thinking if every thing he said was accurarate then there should be nothing to apologies for.

[edit on 23-9-2006 by RedGolem]

Originally posted by df1
Im no fan of the pope, however I think his apology was a noble act and that he apologized because he wanted to stop the violent response to his previous remarks. Whether his remarks were accurate or not, imho he did what a man of God should do in this particular instance.

Df1,
That is very nicely put Df
Now if every one else in the public light or in a position of leadership in one way or another would simpley have the same thoughts on the subject or do the same thing this whole world might be a better place.

Well, now you're beginning to ask the questions that I've been asking since I first heard about this story. I never understood the big deal with it myself. If some people are going to get all flustered because they can't contain their own emotions over a simple opinion spoken by someone else, then I think they need to stop listening to anyone period. It'd prolly be the best thing for them.

I don’t think many Muslim’s themselves see it as a big deal. However, it is many little deals on and on. To use an analogy for it, it’s like being bitten by a rat. The bite will sting but it in itself won’t kill you, but one hundred bites from rats might or one-thousand probably will.

This is what is on-going with Muslim’s. It started roughly in the 1940’s when Israel was established as a state. This didn’t bring to boil the Islamic World as a whole, however most Arabic Islamic Nation’s, Syria, Egypt, etc, were angered by this. Resulting in them voting against U.N. resolution 181. However, it didn’t stop it. Then you have things such as Operation Kilshon - where Irgun invaded Arabic areas of Jerusalem as soon as the British forces left. Nothing was done by the International Community to protect the Muslims nor is anything done now and nor is it taught about. How many people know that Irgun invaded Upper Sheikh Jarrah? How many people know it was before the Arabs attacked? This event was on May the 14th, the First War with Israel began on May the 19th.

This has been the story for Muslims time and time again. The West has been teaching that they’re the attacked, they’re the evil group of people and time and time again remarks are made about them. At first it was only X percent, but with each and every remark X percent grows bigger and more angry.

It’s not one single event, it’s the culmination of over 50 years of events. It’s the support by the West towards Israel and oppressive Islamic Nations such as Saudi Arabia. It’s our funding of terrorist groups, it’s our funding of media to spread propaganda in the Middle East. It’s all the little things becoming one big thing.

One cant say anything bad about Islam without having the whole Muslim world condemning or threatening you.

Well, people seem to forget. The Muslims were the first ones to invade Christian lands and wage war in the name of their god. The Christians came a little later into the game. Remember, until the 4th century, Christians were a non violent underground cult hiding persecution in Rome and practicing non-violence, even willingly dying without resistance for their faith. Christianity spread in Europe mainly because of Roman influence and the Roman military, which became Christianized, putting to the sword sometimes the non converting heathens. but that came hundreds of years after the formation of Christianity and jesus' cricifixion.

In otherwords, for its first 400 years, Christianity was totally non-violent pacifist, peaceful. And persecuted, yet Christians did not raise up arms to fight their oppressors until the oppresors became Christians themselves.

Mohammed was no hwere near death when his band of converts were already waging war in overthrowing traditional city states in Arabia and converting by the sword.

Europe was still disorganized in the dark ages when Muslims attacked Christian Europe first and invaded. Spain, Portugal, and Sicily were invaded and occupied by the Muslim Moors for 700 years. They would have invaded further into Europe, yet Charles Martel stopped their expansion in Tours, France.

The first Christian Crusade did not occur till 1095, 300 years after the Muslims first attacked Christian Europe. So again, we see the Muslims as engaging in more warfare and agression against non-Islamic states earlier and for longer than the Christians.

Why am I defending the Christians? Its true that Christian extremists and fundementalists annoy the hell out of me, and I think they are the biggest threat to American stability and happieness. Christian extremists have personally harrassed me and my friends because Im Pagan. Im sick of Bible Thumpers trying to push their religon in secular life.

However, I see everyday people publically mocking Christianity. In movies, radio, ect. Do I see masses of Christians all over the world threating to kill people for mocking jesus? Do the creators of South Park have to go into hiding from Christian fundementalists because they portray Jesus in mockery? No...........

Hell, in criticisms of Christianity, Ive heard many Christians willing to accept the evils done in the name of jesus in the past and apologize for them. Ive heard less tolerant Christians simply denounce the "blasphemers" and pray that they go to hell. But thats it.

But I do not see masses of Christians violently demanding death or declaring prices on peoples heads for mocking jesus. A couple protests, yeah.

Salman Rushdie is still in hiding for fear for his life. Death sentances have been issued by Muslim governments for Danish cartoonists making criticisms in cartoons about Mohammed. Muslims marching around demanding killing people who mock islam.

And I am yet to hear any Muslim apologists. I have not heard Muslim clerics and leaders criticizing the evil of Islam in the past. Like slavery. Muslims were involved in African slave trading about 800 years before Christians did. In fact, islam condoned slavery. Muslims still practice slavery. Families in Africa are kidnapped and sold off to Rich Muslims in other countries. Muslims still commit genocide against blacks in Africa. In fact, Arab Muslims for quite some time considered blacks as animals and their women as pieces of meat to be used for any sexual pleasure not allowed with a proper Arab Muslim woman. Muslims heavily taxed non-Muslims in their lands, and denied them much power.

Yet many moderate Muslims not only do not condemn the slavery of the past, but even extol it as a virtue, that Muslim slaves were "treated well" and respected. Utter crap. Millions were mercilessly worked to death. Not to mention many European slaves kidnapped on raids and sold in bazaars in Iraq and Turkey.

So yeah. When I hear Muslim authorites start apologizing for their own sins and horrors and intolerance, and start cleaning out the evils in their own closets, then i shall take their complaints seriously.

Until then, its time the hammer falls on them. They are no better than medieval Christians. When they learn to tolerate and turn the other cheek too, then maybe there might be some proper dialogue.

Until then, their whining dims whatever tolerance I might have left.

The Pope is catholic, and he has a right to say what he believes. Sod the Muslims if they cant take criticism that they so readily dish out.

Hypocrites.

The Pope is in such a position that I think, he has much responsibility. When men in positions of such revereance make comments that offend other people's faith, naturally people will resent it. Particulally now, with much distress in the Middle East, the Pope should be much more careful next time, as making comments like these is certainly not acting in the best interest of either the church, or on befalf of anyone else.

Originally posted by Odium
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf, your post might hold some weight if what you said was true. However it’s not.

It is true. Try studying your history.

It’s all well and good, going on and on about how you never see Christian’s Riot but they get their way.

I dont see Christians rioting. Protest and writing complaints is different from death threats and religous leaders tolerating and encouraging their flock to go around attacking or killing people.

Let’s look at this event, Muslims first complain about what the Pope said. Nothing happens, it then takes weeks for something to happen.

What do you mean nothing happens. Of course something happened. Muslims are throwing a massive tissy fit because someone was pointing out that Muslims in their history were just as violent and blood thirsty as Christians. perhaps a bit more.

Then look in the United Kingdom. The television show called “Pope Town” was axed and not shown on television after Christian groups complained about it being blasphemes. Oddly it didn’t make the television.

South Park is on TV here. It is ultra blasphemous towards Christianity. yet its being shown. Ive also seen people on TV mocking or attacking Christian beliefs.

So far, none of them are in hiding or under police protection. The show did not get shown on BBC. So what? Christians protests reasonably without threating mass murder. So what? There are enough mocking shows to take its place. Look at Monty Python's Life of Brian. or some of the skits on Little Britain.

Then you have the show in the Netherlands called “God Does Not Exist”. There was mass outcry from Religious Groups there. Just like this, however that never made the television. Oddly.

Your point is..................

How about in February when Christian groups ruined the Mosque in Onitsha's? Clearly, in Nigeria the Christian groups have been attacking people. Resulting in the deaths of over 40 people with graffiti written on the Mosque’s such as “Mohammed doesn’t exist, Jesus is your saviour.” and so on and so fourth. Oddly it didn’t make it onto the T.V.

Probably because theres enough Muslim butchery of Christians and other infidels going on in Africa that its a bit hard to notice what a few Christians do. 40 people? A minor scuffle compared to the millions of "infidels" in Darfur getting the shaft from Muslims.

I can in fact, go on and on. Showing events where Christians have silenced freedom of speech. I can go on and on and show where Christians have killed people. I can show Christian extremists.

Obviously if you read my post you wouldnt have made a silly comment like that. I stated as much that Christians have been pretty bad. Ive been on the recieving end of some Christian "love". So what? It doesnt means Muslims are any better, more justified, or even rational in their fits and tirades.

I can show Christians attacking Muslims when unprovoked.

I can show you far many more instances of Muslim unprovoked brutality towards anyone not Muslim. Hell, I witnessed enough in a certain cesspool called Saudi Arabia.

I can show Christians to be just as bad as Muslims.

Never said they werent. The topic here is Muslims throwing a fit about the Popes comments. especially when the Pope was right. islam was violent and confrontational from its birth. Christianity took about 400 years to get there.

The fact is, the Media desires not to because it furthers their Apocalyptic Agenda.

Now this is the funniest thing yet. Everytime I see the media, it always tries and portrays the Muslims as poor victims of intolerance. Instead of showing both sides. Including intolerance from the Muslims themselves.

Guess it aint PC.

Skadi_the_Evil_El, do you think that the Prophet Mohammed, who stood opposed to the pagan influences and who's followers thrawted an attempt by the evil Jesu-ben (at Jundi Sabir) in the year 666 from resurrecting powerful black magicans which would have destroyed Christianity, are the same people we see rioting today? When Mohammed heeded the call of the Archangel Gabriel to stop the pagen influence of burying childern alive and other such crimes he was doing so for a reason that is not always visable on the surface without deeper investigation. The impulses that had entered into the Christian lands was coming from a time (before Christ came in flesh) and this influence attempted to subvert Christianty at a very early stage. Was Prophet Mohammed someone who should be held responsible for much of the Islamic perversion we see creeping in the world today?

The Pope must reason more clearly than simply launch into linear thinking of islam today = somthing Mohammed is to blame for etc. For had it not been for Islam, as ironic as this may seem since they fought against the Church, Christianity would have been destroyed before it could have rooted out the pagan influence of the Venetians and Persians. Islam serves another purpose today and as such it has been targetted by dark forces for a sinister purpose which I will not go into here. But they plan to destroy islam and make it disappear entirely - and they shall next target Christianity who by this time will stand weakened and all alone.

Please keep in mind that things are not necessarily this simple no matter what you think about islamic tolerance today, the Muslim people are needed to save more than just islam!