A must read for all Americans.

www.wired.com...


Seems like your just about to become a victim to the biggest most far reaching surveillance system on the earth folks.

They have it going through the system, and once this is law, you will have no privacy in any communications you make, or inside your home if you even raise half a blip on their 'suspects' radar.

unlimited internal surveillance, unlimited wire taps, constant monitoring of all internet and phones...

Oh how it must feel to be sat in the middle of the biggest emerging police state on the face of the planet.
We in the UK shouldn't feel so smug, as if its going down in the USA, you can sure bet a pound to a penny its going to happen here.

This stuff has got to stop! What will happen is it will be signed into law and then the majority of amercans will be informed of exactly what it is all about. In other words, "oh, by the way." I am seriously getting sick and tired of the worn out "terrorism" b.s. This is the kind of terrorism that the majority of people should be concerned about.

From Source

Any government surveillance that captures, analyzes and stores patterns of communications such as phone records, or e-mail and website addresses, is no longer considered surveillance.

Repeals the provision of federal law that puts a time limit on the government's wartime powers to conduct warrantless wiretapping and physical searches against Americans.

Allows the attorney general, or anyone he or she designates, to authorize widespread domestic spying, such as monitoring all instant-messaging systems in the country, so long as the government promises to delete anything not terrorism-related.

Hopefully they will be checking to make sure no governmental fingers are crossed

Moves all court challenges to the NSA surveillance program to a secretive court in Washington, D.C., ...Only government lawyers would be allowed in the courtroom.

Allows the government to get warrants for surveillance programs as a whole, instead of having to describe to a judge the particular persons to be monitored and the methods to be used

Times like this I am glad I live North of the border. It is really begining to get riduculous.



[edit on 9/14/2006 by pstiffy]

I'm glad to see this topic being discussed. As an author who has written on this subject, I can think of no greater threat to our domestic security than this. When I first prognosticated on this trend in surveillance two yeas ago, I took a lot of flak for it. Every now and again, I still get some rather brutal hatemail on the subject.

We're not stupid. We know that a lot of this has to be done. What we don't like is the fact that our very own Federal government think it doesn't need oversight. Any State that wanted to do this thing would be swamped by Federal lawyers demanding that they have oversight.

The whole thing boils down to the question posed by George Orwell. Who watches the watchers? If the answer is "nobody," we are all in trouble. The long term threat doesn't come in the here and the now. The long term threat to us as citizens comes later on, when this crisis is behind us. Once that happens, Federal officials will be unwilling to give back the extraordinary powers they acquired. They'll tell us that they're keeping those authorities in place for the greater good.

It's hard to see ten years in to the future. Even so, many of us have tried. The implications of these proposed laws should give us a lot to think about. They might give us the tools we need to fight the current foe, but they can also rob us of our most treasured rights and privileges.

At a recent public event, I stayed after to talk with a small group of people who tried their best to convince me that the events I wrote about are just too "far out" to be plausible. Trouble is, here we are, looking at the article in this thread, and those dark predictions aren't so "far out" anymore.

If we're going to avoid becoming that which we fight, we must keep up this kind of dialogue. Even if we aren't influential now, it will still matter that we spoke. Some day, future generations will look back, and they'll be hoping to find some record of our dissent. Discuss, debate, publish. The future depends on it.

I bet they have time to vote on this bill, but well, we can forget about them doing anything of any value about immigration, they don't have the time....
warrentless home searches on a whim are against the constitution. and well, I know of someone who had their home searched once for drugs...they tore the place apart from top to bottom, still didn't find anything but left alot of damage....
the guy won a nice amount of money in the lawsuit he filed....
if they go into someone's house without a warrent and find nothing but damage even so much as a wrinkle on a paper, I hope they get the crap sued out of them!!!
over and over again, till they decide it isn't worth it!

hassle the crap out of the citizens, but let any tom, dick, or terryist just waltz into the country with no problems. these people are just insanely sickening!!!

This is nauseating. I actually wonder from time to time what, when they were just kids, Bush and Chaney and Gonzalez and the rest of the pack imagined themselves to be as adults. What happened in their young lives to make them despise America this much? When they played "Army," did they always want to be the Nazis?

This really only one way to combat this.

VOTE

Vote in your primary elections if you can, and be sure to vote in your general elections this November. Fire these bastards! Send them home on employed! And be sure to vote the good guys in.

Baack

[edit on 9/14/06 by Baack]

Voting is vital, but we can't un-do what has been happening with just one election cycle. It's take us a long time to reach this point, so it's only fair to say that it will take a long time to clean up the mess that has been made.

In many respoects, I don't actually think the people in power hate America. I think they have a different vision for our future than we do. Having studied the trend, I think the people at the top are so far out of touch with the common man that they no longer relate to us in a way that we recognize.

The worst part is, they no longer feel the ned to relate much of anything to the rest of us. There are days hwen I'm watching C-Span that I get the destinct impression that they don't see themselves as part of the problem. In many cases, they really do view themselves and their agendas that rhe solution.

In any society where the social and poliitcal elites lose touch with the people whom they regard as lesser than themselves, there is bound to be trouble. America is no excpetion. Beyond that, i will stand by what I said earlier. I know there are people out there who want to hear these things being discussed in rational fashion. If they didn't...I might not be here.

Secret Courts is the only real oversight they're offering? Wow.

Here's an even creepier quote from another creepy article in the news...

Source
The president's measure would go further than the Senate package in allowing classified evidence to be withheld from defendants in terror trials, using coerced testimony and protecting U.S. interrogators against prosecution for using methods that violate the Geneva Conventions.

Even Colin Powell is starting to raise concerns...

(from above article)
"The world is beginning to doubt the moral basis of our fight against terrorism," Powell, a retired general who is also a former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, wrote in a letter.

Powell said that Bush's bill, by redefining the kind of treatment the Geneva Conventions allow, "would add to those doubts. Furthermore, it would put our own troops at risk."

Some recent quotes...
"The president will not accept something that shuts the program down"
-Tony Snow
""I reminded them that the most important job of government is to protect the homeland,"
-George Bush
"The answer to terrorism is the universal application of global values."
-Tony Blair

Source
Prosecutors would be able to present evidence to the tribunal that would be kept secret from the defense and could use hearsay and coerced confessions against defendants.

What the hell is going on? This is right out of 1930's Germany folks. Makes you wonder who is really behind all this crap.

Originally posted by Baack
This really only one way to combat this.

VOTE

I'm afraid that voting is no longer a legitimate engine of change either. www.abovetopsecret.com...

Twitchy is quite right to point out that what we face today is like what went on in the 1930's.

Supporting ATS Thread

Those of you who had read George Orwell's "1984" will see a few more sharp and painful comparisons. That's why it's so important to use your voice...while you've still got it. Bear in mind that our leaders today are talking about this stuff like we are not even in the room.

If that's not worth the time it takes you to vote, I don't know what would be. If you don't vote, you'll be doing exactly what they want you to be doing. If we do nothin,g they can get away with everything. They serve us, or we serve them, and you already know which one of those two options they want.

Originally posted by Justin Oldham
If you don't vote, you'll be doing exactly what they want you to be doing.

Ah but see that's the beauty of electronic voting Justin, you don't actually vote anymore, a machine does it now and you don't legally own your vote, and thanks to Coporate Privacy Laws, you have no way of verifying that vote, you just have to take their word for it. The Help America Vote Act was a complete Farce, I have in effect championed this thread on electronic voting, it remains, IMO, one of the greatest threats to Democracy we face.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by twitchy

Originally posted by Baack
This really only one way to combat this.

VOTE

I'm afraid that voting is no longer a legitimate engine of change either. www.abovetopsecret.com...

What is so bad about the link you posted is that it is just a part of the problem. Not only are elections easily rigged, they are also pitting puppet against puppet. Democrat and Republican mean nothing in the american political system these days. Both sides and their members have become completely consumed by the greed of big business and special interest. The only special interest that should matter in this country is the will of the people, not the will of the deepest pockets.

I'm truly afraid now how can we stop this voting is not a viable opinion any more and who watching the watchers this is badddddddddd really bad.

[edit on 14-9-2006 by El Che]

Originally posted by El Che
I'm truly afraid now how can we stop this voting is not a viable opinion any more and who watching the watchers this is badddddddddd really bad.

I'd like to answer this one by telling you about what is happening in my own State. Several lawsuits have been initiated by local interest groups against the company that is responsible for all those electronic voting machines.

Secondly, that handful of local trouble-makers managed a petition drive that forced the State division of elections to give the voters choice. Paper ballots, orthe electronic voting machine. During our recent primaries, it turns out that less than one tenth of one percent of our voters used the Diebold machines.

Nation-wide, Diebold is up to its neck in lawsuits. Mine is not the only State to fight back against what is clearly a case of corruption. Many of our State Legislators have had their political hopes jammed up because they were asked about their support for the less-than-secure electronic system. Those who favored it have gone down in flames during our lst two election cycles.

DNC and RNC bosses have been to our State in an effort to twist arms on this subject, but they've had no takers. I've heard that atleast one local attorney is ready to file a class-action suit that will be timed to coincide with the November elections. I'm not saying that we will win this battle, but I wanted to show you that some of us are fighting back.

Local reporters who can get local candidates on tape saying yes or no to these machines will have some impact, to be sure. As a citizen, you can go to a political meet and greet and ask the same questions. Then, post the results of your encounter on the net. This is just one way in which you can use your voice, while you still have it.

Originally posted by Baack

VOTE

"The people who cast the votes do not decide an election, the people who count the votes do."

or

"Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything."

--usually attributed to Joseph Stalin

Originally posted by D4rk Kn1ght
www.wired.com...


Seems like your just about to become a victim to the biggest most far reaching surveillance system on the earth folks.

They have it going through the system, and once this is law, you will have no privacy in any communications you make, or inside your home if you even raise half a blip on their 'suspects' radar.

unlimited internal surveillance, unlimited wire taps, constant monitoring of all internet and phones...

Oh how it must feel to be sat in the middle of the biggest emerging police state on the face of the planet.
We in the UK shouldn't feel so smug, as if its going down in the USA, you can sure bet a pound to a penny its going to happen here.

It has already happened there! they have disarmed you so for the time being you pose no threat to them ....

Americans on the other hand are going to be in a pickle....they are pushing surveilance because if they attempted to directly disarm us....instant civil war.

I think the GOP needs to back the hell off...I think they will already suffer massive losses in the elections this year (hopefully).

We can at least deadlock congress and prevent bush from doing anything else. This would hopefully render him impotent.

OMG We are so in trouble now!!!!! I cannot believe this. This is so bad this should be BREAKING NEWS!!!! That more of our liberties just got toke away.... Anytime, they please they can physically search us and our homes. Listen, to us anytime they please and track us on computers. Whatever, noone cares anymore about what our government is doing to us.

SOMEONE IN THIS THREAD URGED US TO VOTE. WELL, I VOTED FOR GORE THE FIRST TIME, AND I VOTED FOR KERRY THE SECOND TIME. FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO VOTED FOR BUSH, YOU DESERVE WHATEVER HAPPENS TO YOU AND THIS COUNTRY. MY CONSCIENCE IS CLEAN.

kp

Justin, this same problem happened here in Ohio, only our Governor candidate for the Republican party has actually been investigated because he owned stock in diebold, then made it our official means of voting, when we found out he said he had no idea he had 10's of thousands of dollars in the company.

This law is the most out right blatant assault on the American people, dwarfing all of 9/11 in it's severity. Most look aside, most Americans are to damn dumb to even know what it means. VOTING does nothing, don't you realize Bush stole the election? I even voted for him, and admit he stole it. Democracy will ultimately fail based on the basic nature of humans, our war like political nature will never allow this system to stand. 200 years we had a good go, though that is very young on the world stage, our republic will ultimately become a dictatorship and there is no way around it based on this hypothesis: When a government convenes after another steps down (election changes office) the power gained by the last president will not subside and disappear but will be used by the current president to proceed in gaining just a little more rights. Eventually it will come to a point where to much power is consolidated into one mans or a group of men's hands and will have to fall into them completely, as to much of the political power is to concentrated to be challenged elsewhere.

This has happened with Bush, since the WWII era we have gone down this path, since Roosevelt disregarded the constitution and it's purpose, inflated the national government (which initially happened after the civil war) every president there after has had more power then the last.

The next president after Bush will be THEE most powerful man in the world, never before has a president been so powerful with so many personal rights and immunities. This administration, and the one after no matter republican or democrat will not be elected out of office, as Justin said, you cannot vote to undo the past. What has been done is done, we took it like fools blindfolded and walked to the edge of a cliff, we will accept our fate in two ways: Fight to the death, for honor and country, for the sake of our families so they do not live in tyranny. Or we accept it like we have been for decades, to allow a dictator to silently take the throne over an empire in disregard for the sovereign states that formed it, with open arms to be subject to it's rule.

I fear we will accept option number two, we will not fight, not enough of us anyways. There will be a resistance if it gets to that point, I know I will be there, will you? Will you accept a dictator to rule your life in every way, to watch you when ever it wants? Will you allow the beast to turn us into a militaristic society to rampage across the world for materialistic purposes? Will you accept defeat in everything our forefathers fought to protect? Will you allow your civil liberties to be raped in front of your eyes? Will you continue to deny that there is nothing wrong with the passage of bills such as this one?

Or will you fight it. Will you fight it with words? Will you fight it in the streets in marches, in the schools, in the courtrooms, in the elections, or heaven forbid it comes to it, will you fight it with all the strength you have in combat in defense of everything you once lived for?

It is time to stop questioning whether or not a problem is occurring, whether a storm is coming over the horizon, it is time to begin to imagine a world under a true tyrant, a world of no rights, and it is time to think to your self what you will do. Accept like a sheep, or fight like a man?

Originally posted by redfox2
SOMEONE IN THIS THREAD URGED US TO VOTE. WELL, I VOTED FOR GORE THE FIRST TIME, AND I VOTED FOR KERRY THE SECOND TIME. FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO VOTED FOR BUSH, YOU DESERVE WHATEVER HAPPENS TO YOU AND THIS COUNTRY. MY CONSCIENCE IS CLEAN.

kp

Keep in mind that whatever happens to those who voted for Bush will also happen to those who voted for Kerry. You're conscience may be clean, but you will be dealt the same fate as the "majority" who voted for Bush. I voted for Gore and Kerry too, I'm just saying...