Is this the most corrupt U.S Government in History

Im Out of WATS votes for the month....so Valhall(I think I already gave you one for another thread ) I just have to give you ...


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Some of the factors, IMO, contributiing to our govt. being the most corrupt in history are:

1.)Corporate Personhood-- This wonderful little bit of legal fiction allow Corporations; both, big and small; to have the same Constitutional rights as individual people. This has allowed corruption on a massive scale to infiltrate our govt.(regardless of party).
Any given corporation can spend infinately more amounts of time, energy, recources "lobbying"(legal bribery) our political representatives. All types of "incentives" ranging from trips to post political career opportunities(which are much more lucrative than the political office themselves). Jack Abramoff is the tip of the lobbying corruption 'iceburg'. Serious, and I do mean complete overhaul, needs to be done with any and all laws regarding lobbying.
'Corporate Personhood' needs to be exterminated.

2.)Our govt. Hypocrisy
Our govt. says it is for freedom and truth and justice and virtue and etc. But if you take a look inside a great many of its practices; you will begin to see alot of contradictions.
Example: The War on Drugs.
The war on drugs was started on rascism, lies, political power moves. 70 years later we currently have 700,000 people in prison for possession of marijuana. Both GWB and Clinton, our last two presidents, have both admitted to smoking pot. So 700,000 people sit in a jail cell; and every 41 seconds someone in this country is arrested for pot; and Both Bush and Clinton sit/sat in the White house. Can we be any more hypocritical?
Indeed we say we are the land of the free yet we have the highest incarceration rate in the world. We have over 61% of our population involved in the criminal justice system. Either in jail or on probation or on parole.Can we be any more hypocritical?
We talk about supporting democracy, yet when the people of Palistine selected Hamas; we turned our back on the process. Can we be any more hypocritical?
We talk about saving freedom in the WOT.. yet our president has seen fit to challenge our Constitution over 150 times in over 750 Presidential Signing Statements. Can we be any more hypocritical?
We talk about freedom and justice for all... yet every single nationality has had to scrape, claw, protest, march, endure harsh govt. action, etc.. just to try to get its piece of the "American Dream". Examples: Native Americans;Asians;Blacks; Italians;Irish; Latinos; and now Middle Eastern'ers. Not a one had a fair shake when they first appeared as a part of our nation 'en mass'. Can we be any more hypocritical?
We wage a war to save Iraqis from tyranny and while Saddam is on trial for namely killing 158 people(of course, he did keep all the factions from outright killing each other ergo.. the current sectarian violence in Iraq); Sudan has reported possibly over 500,000 dead(nationalgeographic.com ) and we have done virtually nothing. Indeed, Can we be anymore hypocritical?

sorry to rant, but these are just some of the more basic reasons I feel our govt. is one of the most corrupt in history.

thank you for your time.

Originally posted by Peruvianmonk
Alot of us on this site think that this government in the U.S is pretty awful. Im English but alot of your governments policies and ideas have affected me and the people of our nation(London Bombings, wars in Iraq Afghanistan), as Blair seems to be hell bent on complete sub ordination to the U.S. My question is though is this the worst you have had. Johnson lied to get Ameirca embrioled in Vietnam, Granted you also had Nixon, watergate, and the delay of talks in Vietnam so he could get in to power on a supposed peace ticket. Reagan, who thought it was neccesary to up the anti in the cold war when the USSR was clearly on a path to reformation and even offered to get rid of all it's nuclear weapons. Now you have this administion who cheated and rigged ballots to get into power, who at the very least were criminally negligent in not stopping the 9-11 attacks, have curtailed your rights of freedom of speech as a result, have launched an invasion of Iraq which was based on a pack of mistruths and barely supported by the U.N. An administration which refuses to tackle climate change even when the perma frost in Siberia which has been frozen for 40,000 years is melting. I mean what does it take to demand some change in your country?? All your politicians are basically businessmen who are in it for the money and power, could it get any worse??

Wow... you're awesome. Like way awesome. No doubts, the American government has made many mistakes, but holding our breath is a waste, I think there are many more to come unless something is done. My opinion: Today's politician has lost the idea of the common man since money s needed for everything to get into office; and well that's the difference between the common man and the government/ high society. [Some of which I quote from a friend of mine]

Originally posted by Peruvianmonk
Alot of us on this site think that this government in the U.S is pretty awful... Now you have this administion who cheated and rigged ballots to get into power,

Lets start here. There is no evidence what so ever that the Bush administration did anything to sway the election. The SUPREME COURT, a completely seperate entity, voted to end the REcounting in Florida. The president had nothing to do with it, he wasn't even in office. And in his second election he blew Carey's doors.

Originally posted by Peruvianmonk
...who at the very least were criminally negligent in not stopping the 9-11 attacks

How? There were flaws in the communication between agencies and some information (a few quotes in millions of bits of surveillance collected by the agencies) and people were ignored, but NO ONE is responsible for the 9/11 attacks other than the terrorists and those who harbored them. Additionally, what law did the administration break? Not having invested more money in mind control?

Originally posted by Peruvianmonk
have curtailed your rights of freedom of speech as a result

Umm, apparently no one has shot you so I think the freedom of speech is still pretty much in tact. You may be refering to the Patriot Act which allows certain intrusions of privacy by the federal government, most of were previously legal at state and local levels.

Originally posted by Peruvianmonk
have launched an invasion of Iraq which was based on a pack of mistruths and barely supported by the U.N.

Well, true, we have found no weapons of mass destruction to date, but, part of the treaty signed by Sadam Hussien after the 1st Gulf War required regular inspections. This condition was refused, the world was threatened by not knowing what Iraq had. Declaring war so soon may have been a mistake, but it was certainly justifiable. If a person came into a bank toting their finger in their shirt, I'd sock 'em first chance I got because of the threat of the gun. I wouldn't wait for him to fire off a few rounds first.

Originally posted by Peruvianmonk
An administration which refuses to tackle climate change even when the perma frost in Siberia which has been frozen for 40,000 years is melting.

The issue of global warming is something of concern, but, the government is not ignoring it. First, since 1997, when American EPA laws starting being enforced, the ozone has been "on the mend" NASA study

Originally posted by Peruvianmonk
All your politicians are basically businessmen who are in it for the money and power, could it get any worse??

Power and influence, yes, thats why anyone tries to move up the ladder. Everyone wants to affect the world in some way. But money. Come on. Do you have any idea how much money the president looses every day just by being the president. His salary is something like a quarter-million dollars. That is a huge pay cut for a person like Bush, just like nearly every Senator and Representative looses money every day they're away from their companies. You can't run a national campaign without some money in your pocket.


Hey, Tone23, were'd you get that number, 61% of population involved in criminal justice system? My uncle's a police officer, do I count?

Cite your source.

[edit on 17-9-2006 by gonavy2011]

[edit on 17-9-2006 by gonavy2011]

Originally posted by Peruvianmonk
.... but alot of your governments policies and ideas have affected me and the people of our nation(London Bombings, wars in Iraq Afghanistan), as Blair seems to be hell bent on complete sub ordination to the U.S. My question is though is this the worst you have had. Johnson lied to get Ameirca embrioled in Vietnam, Granted you also had Nixon, watergate, and the delay of talks in Vietnam so he could get in to power on a supposed peace ticket. Reagan, who thought it was neccesary to up the anti in the cold war when the USSR was clearly on a path to reformation and even offered to get rid of all it's nuclear weapons. Now you have this administion who cheated and rigged ballots to get into power, who at the very least were criminally negligent in not stopping the 9-11 attacks, have curtailed your rights of freedom of speech as a result, have launched an invasion of Iraq which was based on a pack of mistruths and barely supported by the U.N.

First things first, can please give some source links for this?

I am left leaning, so it should be pretty obvious that I believe Bush is among the worst presidents in US history. That opinion is based partially on the Iraq War, and the lies used to sell it. Remember that when Bush lied, people died. I am also very unhappy with the fact that we have seen our rights and freedoms reduced under the Bush administration. Benjamin Franklin once said, "Those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" (I saw that in the museum at the Manzanar Japanese internment camp in California, near Lone Pine). Also, I have a BIG problem with the use of fear by the Bush administration. He and the rest of the Republicans have used fear (fear of Democrats being weaker on Terror) to stay in power. It is fear that kept the likes of Saddam, Stalin, and Castro in power. In no way am I saying that Bush is as bad as these guys (not even close), but he does use the same tool to maintain power.
Also, the reason Bush hasn't been impeached is that both the House and Senate have Republican majorities. Passing Aticles of Impeachment in the House requires a simple majority; however, this is not going to happen as the majority is Republican. Even if he were impeached, he wouild still need to be convicted in the Senate, which would require a two-thirds majority (definately not happening in a Republican controlled Senate). So, the reason he hasn't been impeached is the same reason Clinton was, and that is politics.

Originally posted by engineer2005
Also, the reason Bush hasn't been impeached is that both the House and Senate have Republican majorities.

A majority Democrat Congress might go so far as to impeach Bush, but the fact that he has committed no impeachable offense might make them look bad in the eyes of the public. In fact, Bush didn't lie about Iraq. He, the Congress, and our allies came to the same conclusions after reviewing the same evidence.

Originally posted by gonavy2011
Hey, Tone23, were'd you get that number, 61% of population involved in criminal justice system? My uncle's a police officer, do I count?

Cite your source.

I am truly sorry.... I have really had a brain fart on this one. The 61% was people caught up in the legal system... not the criminal justice system specifically.
Again, very sorry for the incorrect figure. I tried to find the other story about the legal system and 61%. Unfortunately I was unable to find that one.However, The numbers for the criminal justice system look something like this:

1 Out Of 32 Americans Under Correctional Supervision
From Robert Longley,
Your Guide to U.S. Gov Info / Resources.
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6.7 Million in prison, on parole or probation
While 1 out of every 142 Americans is now actually in prison, 1 out of every 32 of us is either in prison or on parole from prison, according to yet another report on Americans behaving badly from the Bureau of Justice Statistics.
This means that 6.7 million adult men and women -- about 3.1 percent of the total U.S. adult population -- are now very non-voluntary members of America's "correctional community."

According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics' report Probation and Parole in the United States, 2002, the number of adult persons on probation grew by 63,434 during 2002. Probation is a court-determined period of non-prison supervision served following a conviction.


source: usgovinfo.com

mind you these figures are from 2002.. so the number has probably risen. while it is not 61% it is a very large number of americans 1 out of every 32 that are cought up in the criminal justice system.

That number of 61% may be the percentage of Americans caought up in the legal system... not only criminal but civil... which would make more sense for the 61% given divorce, lawsuits, and criminal justice figures. God, I really hate when I mix up my facts...(bangs head against the wall).

As for the second part of your question... No, you guys dont count in those stats.. from what I gathered it was people involved in the legal system... but not those that worked for it; or knew someone that did.

thanks for your time,
tone23

OK, so the selling of Iraq wasn't technically a lie; however, it is highly apparent that Bush knowingly misled the US and the world with questionable intelligence, which ended up becoming the primary basis for their case against Iraq. To me, this is just as bad as a lie. What Bush has done is much worse than what Clinton, and probably worse than what Nixon did.

Someone once said "you get what you paid for."

When the vast majority of the registered voters gets off their arse and votes and things are still this messed up, then I'll change my opinion, but until then my answer is "Hell No, the people in power are exactly the people you've let stay in power."

The Libra

I totally agree with your premise and point of view,

However

I dont think many people would disagree that bush stole an election, committed fraud, manipulated figures (both politically and real voter ones) to win an election.

Therefore the people in power are the ones that the rest of the government allow to stay in power having observed, lived through and seen this.


Regards

Elf

Will the next government be able or even interested in righting some of the wrongs commitied during this administration? I just wish Gore had got in, but mabye his commitment to saving the world from climate change would of been stalled by all the crap he would of had to deal with from the oil companies and mand of his administration who would have interests involved with this.

And smallight, anyone with a basic understanding of history and current events would know what Nixon had been up to, how Rice recieved a detailed document whose title was 'Bin Laden plans to hijhack aeroplanes in the U.S' plus numerous warnings from Putin, German secret services and even the Israeils. Sources are not neede, plus i don't know how to do them!!

[edit on 20-9-2006 by Peruvianmonk]

[edit on 20-9-2006 by Peruvianmonk]

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
I dont think many people would disagree that bush stole an election, committed fraud, manipulated figures (both politically and real voter ones) to win an election.

I personally would be hard-pressed to disagree, but it is my belief that, had voters been historically known for turning out in larger numbers, either Bush would not have even remotely been a candidate the Republican party would back, or no amount of voter fraud could have concealed the nation's truest majority representative. If we'd had 75%+ of the registered voters in America turn out to vote, there is no way election fraud could have happened on a disputable scale. And even if Bushie were still president, with 75% of the registered voters actually voting, I could at least console myself that there are times when you gotta admit defeat for one round, and losing out against a vast majority is one of those times.

Either way, the voters are still responsible. I was here, right during the 2004 elections, and I saw so many Americans here, so pissed off about how policy was going, how messed up they felt everything was, and how much it needed to be fixed, and then in the same breath turn around and declare that they weren't going to bother voting. It was quite a few dozen I saw.

Imagine what might have changed if they'd voted? One could argue that it could have gone the other way too, that there were just as many non-voting republicans. I would argue it is still, then, the voter's fault. Ultimately, unless one values their right to vote, the whole bloody question is pointless.

(edit: whew, had a reeeeallly scary typo)

[edit on 9/20/2006 by thelibra]

But it's not even like the 2000 election was the first time that vote- rigging has happened, Kennedy did it it seems that corruption is endemic of 'your democracy'.
All democracies have certain amounts of corruption but your seems to be inbuilt and accepted as the norm, i mean look at Cheny and his dealings with Exxon and Enron, if that isn't vested personal interest i don't know what is!!!

Originally posted by Peruvianmonk
But it's not even like the 2000 election was the first time that vote- rigging has happened, Kennedy did it it seems that corruption is endemic of 'your democracy'.

Got a link to that? First time I heard Kennedy did it.

But yeah, man, of course vote fraud has been around as long as the vote. And there will almost certainly ALWAYS be some vote fraud, to a certain degree. And each time it gets large enough to detect, people bring it to the courts, the courts generally rule that something has to be done about it, and in general, something does. A good example of these types of corrections is when, in the late 1800/early 1900's, people figured out how to make dead people vote. Once it was discovered and addressed, people were very hard to do the same thing twice.

So yeah, I can see vote fraud happening to some degree to the end of time. But even a 3rd world "democracy" can only shift about 20% of the vote without major backlack by the population. I'd say in the US, it's probably less than 1% that could be seriously altered without someone blowing a lot of whistles, especially thanks to the electoral college. Now when the majority of the registered voters AREN'T going to the polls, and the race for presidency is a dead heat, that makes for REEEAALLLY nasty thoughts about the influence of vote fraud on the election.

But right now, it's the best we've got. It's the only thing we've got, and most people aren't even using it. So who's fault is it really?

Originally posted by Peruvianmonk
All democracies have certain amounts of corruption but your seems to be inbuilt and accepted as the norm, i mean look at Cheny and his dealings with Exxon and Enron, if that isn't vested personal interest i don't know what is!!!

I'm right there with you, man, I think Cheney and his lot are filthier than a $2 hooker, but that's just how the system works when so many people are so apathetic about voting.

The reason America is not shouting in the streets is simply because we don't have time. People are working so hard just to make ends meat. I think the government wants us to be worker bees so that you are too busy to fight.

I see a lot of conjecture and opinion in this thread, but not a lot of substance.

Are there other administrations that have done the same, to a degree that is more severe than the current one?


Ulysses Grant-
* Crédit Mobilier Scandal- Stockholders and the federal government were bilked out of millions of dollars (Billions in todays currency). When it appeared that an investigation was going to be launched, a Massachusetts Representative bribed dozens of influential congressmen and was able to head off any trouble.
* Black Friday-
Precious metals speculators Jim Fisk and Jay Gould attempted to corner the nation’s gold market. They enlisted the help of Grant’s brother-in-law, who had pledged to prevent the president from acting to ruin the scheme. Grant who may or may not have been involved, came to realize that his brother-in-law’s association with the speculators might be exposed and he ordered the immediate sale of $4 million worth of government gold (hundreds of millions in todays money). The price plummeted and hundreds of thousands of people were left penniless. All to cover Grants butt.
* The Whiskey Ring-
In the years following the Civil War, liquor taxes were raised to extremely high rates to cover the expense of reconstruction. Many of the nation’s distillers bribed officials in the Department of the Treasury, receiving tax stamps at a fraction of their face value. Treasury Secretary Benjamin Bristow eventually caught wind of the dishonesty and launched a massive investigation. In the end, more than 100 officials were convicted. Grant, much to his discredit, successfully shielded his private secretary, Orville E. Babcock, who many historians believe to have been a "front" for Grant himself.
* The Indian Ring-
Grant’s Secretary of War (Secretary of Defense these days) accepted bribes from companies with licenses to trade on the reservations of many Native American tribes...was impeached by the House of Representatives.
* Salary Grab Act-
The day before the second-term inauguration of President Grant doubled his salary and the salaries of Supreme Court Justices, effecively paying them off.

Richard Nixon-
* Watergate
Nixon and his aides related to the burglary and wiretapping of the national headquarters of the Democratic Party at the Watergate office complex in Washington.
He secretly directed the White House counsel, John Dean, to oversee a cover-up. Nixon also obstructed the FBI in its inquiry and authorized secret cash payments to the Watergate burglars in an effort to prevent them from implicating him.
* Saturday Night Massacre
Nixon had installed a recording system in the White House and that all the president's conversations in the Oval Office had been recorded. When the tapes were subpoenaed by Archibald Cox, the special prosecutor appointed to investigate the Watergate affair, Nixon refused to comply, offering to provide summary transcripts instead. Cox rejected the offer. Then Nixon ordered Attorney General Elliot Richardson to fire Cox, and Richardson resigned rather than comply. Nixon then fired Richardson's assistant, William Ruckelshaus, when he too refused to fire Cox. Cox was finally removed by Solicitor General Robert Bork, though a federal district court subsequently ruled the action illegal.


These are just quick examples, I could go on for hours. Warren G. Harding and the Teapot Dome scandal, Eaton Affair involving a sex scandal and the resignation of much of Andrew Jackson's cabinet, FDR's persecution of homosexuals in the Newport Sex Scandal, and others like McCarthyism, Abscam, Iran-Contra, Junk Bonds, The Campaign Finance Scandal, Filegate, and Henry Cisneros.

These just scratch the surface, but they're historical fact. I see a lot of speculation around Bush, things he might have done, or might be involved in, but not a lot of tangible definative evidence. So far, yeah, this administration is corrupt, but seemingly not that much moreso than most others.

HILLARY CLINTON FOR PRESIDENT!!!

It will take a woman to clean up the mess that Bush has gotten us in. It may be far past repair though. I am from Arkansas, the Clintons are good people. No one gave them a chance, I guess you either love them or hate them, no in between.

HILLARY CLINTON FOR PRESIDENT!!!
BILL CLINTON FOR VICE!!

LET SOME SIMPLE ARKANSANS CLEAN UP THE WORLDS MESS.

Originally posted by BartIV
...the Clintons are good people. No one gave them a chance....

Look, I voted for Bill Clinton in 1992. I wasn't particularly pleased with his performance in the first term, so in the next term I voted for Bob Dole. And, guess what. Bill Clinton won the election. I don't quite know how anyone can say that the Clintons weren't given a chance. They ran as a twofer and they had two terms.