King Lucifer

Originally posted by kneejo
Now I get it.. Jesus is Satan in human form, cast down because he equated himself with God.

çomon people.. do you really believe Jesus fooled us for 2000+ years.. I believe so.. Just nobody dares saying this.. well I dare.. and I said it. there you go, now crucify me.. lol.. bugger

(look mom, I'm on anti-psychotics)

Wow thats saying a lot Kneejo. I can't say that I agree with you. Just because lucifer means "light bringer" does not mean that Jesus is the same thing.

"Babylonian King Nimrod was given his power by Satan who appears as an angel of light(Lucifer or whatever name you want to call him.). Upon his death it was claimed by his mother Semiramis whom he married that Nimrod was Baal the sun god who is Satan by the way."

How can you draw this conclusion? I am seriously confused. Please tell me how King Nimrod got his power by Satan.
From what I can draw from history King Nimrod was just a fool who tried to create a tower to heaven.

Now in my belief...
Then, because this foolish King was enslaving his people and had them ALL under his tyranical rule, an ET race came down and finally put an end to the madness by confusing the people of the nation. The ET race confused the people by taking many people and creating new languages amongst them. Thus the Hebrew nation was born.. along with many others.

Originally posted by Techsnow


How can you draw this conclusion? I am seriously confused. Please tell me how King Nimrod got his power by Satan.
From what I can draw from history King Nimrod was just a fool who tried to create a tower to heaven.

You can draw this conclusion from the verse itself. The verse is talking about a Babylonian King who is being judged and then says the king falls from heaven. Read all of the chapter Isaiah 14. Verse nine talks about him going to hell and all the leaders of the world saying in verse 10 Art thou become weak as we? Are thou become one of us?

Now in my belief...Then, because this foolish King was enslaving his people and had them ALL under his tyranical rule, an ET race came down and finally put an end to the madness by confusing the people of the nation. The ET race confused the people by taking many people and creating new languages amongst them. Thus the Hebrew nation was born.. along with many others.

Now the truth...........there are no ET's. ET''s are the counterfeit for the Rapture.
Even as Lucifer is the counterfeit for the bringer of light.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

Originally posted by Techsnow
I thought Nimrod had the tower of Babil built. Are we talking about the same King?

Yes we are.

It was not Nimrod. It was King Nubuchadnezzar, representing the Babylonian Dynasty.

“The stars of God” are the kings of the royal line of David. (Numbers 24:17) From David onward, these “stars” ruled from Mount Zion. After Solomon built the temple in Jerusalem, the name Zion came to apply to the whole city. Under the Law covenant, all male Israelites were obliged to travel to Zion three times a year. Thus, it became “the mountain of meeting.” By determining to subjugate the Judean kings and then remove them from that mountain, Nebuchadnezzar is declaring his intention to put himself above those “stars.” Instead of giving God credit for the victory over them, he arrogantly puts himself in Gods place. So it is after being cut down to the earth that the Babylonian dynasty is mockingly referred to as the “shining one.”

Originally posted by kneejo
Now I get it.. Jesus is Satan in human form, cast down because he equated himself with God.

çomon people.. do you really believe Jesus fooled us for 2000+ years.. I believe so.. Just nobody dares saying this.. well I dare.. and I said it. there you go, now crucify me.. lol.. bugger

(look mom, I'm on anti-psychotics)

[edit on 13-9-2006 by kneejo]

Not true. Jesus did not equate himself as equal to God.
At Phillipians 2:5 & 6 is states,

5 Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.

Jesus himself stated at (John 14:27-28) . . .. 28 YOU heard that I said to YOU, I am going away and I am coming [back] to YOU. If YOU loved me, YOU would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am. . .

Originally posted by Sparky63

It was not Nimrod. It was King Nubuchadnezzar, representing the Babylonian Dynasty.

“The stars of God” are the kings of the royal line of David. (Numbers 24:17) From David onward, these “stars” ruled from Mount Zion. After Solomon built the temple in Jerusalem, the name Zion came to apply to the whole city. Under the Law covenant, all male Israelites were obliged to travel to Zion three times a year. Thus, it became “the mountain of meeting.” By determining to subjugate the Judean kings and then remove them from that mountain, Nebuchadnezzar is declaring his intention to put himself above those “stars.” Instead of giving God credit for the victory over them, he arrogantly puts himself in Gods place. So it is after being cut down to the earth that the Babylonian dynasty is mockingly referred to as the “shining one.”

I know that it is commonly held that the Babylonian King in question is Nebuchadnezzar. This is incorrect. If you understood this seeming insignificant verse then you would understand.

Isaiah 14:8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.

They are speaking of Nimrod in Isaiah 14, and to go further, they are speaking of Satan.

Could you give me an approximate date as to when the prophesies of Jeremiah 50 and Jeremiah 51 were fulfilled?

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

I know that it is commonly held that the Babylonian King in question is Nebuchadnezzar. This is incorrect. If you understood this seeming insignificant verse then you would understand.

Isaiah 14:8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.

They are speaking of Nimrod in Isaiah 14, and to go further, they are speaking of Satan.

Could you give me an approximate date as to when the prophesies of Jeremiah 50 and Jeremiah 51 were fulfilled?

Jer 50 & 51 are clearly referring to the future overthrow of Babylon by the Medes and Persians in 539 BCE . Both of these Bible books were written while Israel was being held captive by the Babylonian Empire. This was a result of Jerusalems overthrow in 607 BCE.
JER 50:17 specifically referrs to Nebechadneazzar.
I really dont understand why you would even consider Nimrod, the great grandson of Noah, as having anything to to do with this. Nimrod lived around 2269 B.C.E
Both Isaiah Chap 14 & JEr 50 & 51 were referring to events to take place in their future, not of events that took place almost 2000 years in their past. I would be very interested in your understanding of the time frame involved.

Regarding Isa 14:8 More than 100 years before Babylon’s rise as the preeminent world power, Isaiah foretells the world’s reaction to her fall. Prophetically, he commands Israelites who have been freed from captivity to her: “You must raise up this proverbial saying against the king of Babylon and say: ‘How has the one driving others to work come to a stop, the oppression come to a stop! Jehovah has broken the rod of the wicked ones, the staff of the ruling ones, the one striking peoples in fury with a stroke incessantly, the one subduing nations in sheer anger with a persecution without restraint.’” (Isaiah 14:4-6)

Babylon has built up quite a reputation as a conqueror, an oppressor who turns free people into slaves. How fitting that her fall be celebrated with a “proverbial saying” directed primarily at the Babylonian dynasty—starting with Nebuchadnezzar and ending with Nabonidus and Belshazzar—that presided over the glory days of the great city!

What a difference her fall will make! “The whole earth has come to rest, has become free of disturbance. People have become cheerful with joyful cries. Even the juniper trees have also rejoiced at you, the cedars of Lebanon, saying, ‘Ever since you have lain down, no woodcutter comes up against us.’” (Isaiah 14:7, 8) The kings of the nations round about were, to Babylon’s rulers, like trees to be cut down and used for their own purposes. Well, all of that is finished. The Babylonian woodcutter has cut his last tree!
So this was directed not to "Long Dead Nimrod" or Satan, but to the Kings of Babylon and by extension the Babylonian Dynasty that had oppressed Gods people.


[edit on 14-9-2006 by Sparky63]

THank you for clearing this up for us Sparky.

Now, about what Kneejo said.
" Now I get it.. Jesus is Satan in human form, cast down because he equated himself with God.

çomon people.. do you really believe Jesus fooled us for 2000+ years.. I believe so.. Just nobody dares saying this.. well I dare.. and I said it. there you go, now crucify me.. lol.. bugger"

Kneejo, you are VERY confused about this.
First off, Satan is just a mistranslation, lets clear that up right now.
Second, Lucifer means morning star, light bringer... we already cleared this.
Finally, Jesus was proclaiming himself as the new morning star.
Lucifer is a TITLE. Lucifer is NOT a name.
The original fallen angel that rebeled against God held the title of 'morning star'.
That angel is no more, he is the leader of demons now.

Originally posted by Sparky63

Jer 50 & 51 are clearly referring to the future overthrow of Babylon by the Medes and Persians in 539 BCE . Both of these Bible books were written while Israel was being held captive by the Babylonian Empire. This was a result of Jerusalems overthrow in 607 BCE.

What you say is what most people believe, but it is not correct.
Well, as you say Jeremiah 50 and 51 is referring to the future overthrow by the Medes but it did not happen in 539 BC in fact, it has not happened yet and will happen in the future.

Jeremiah 50 and 51 is being fulfilled right now in modern day Iraq. The prophecy is at Jeremiah 51:9 right now up to Jer 51:9.

I really dont understand why you would even consider Nimrod, the great grandson of Noah, as having anything to to do with this. Nimrod lived around 2269 B.C.E

Because of Ecclesiastes 1:9

The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

Both Isaiah Chap 14 & JEr 50 & 51 were referring to events to take place in their future, not of events that took place almost 2000 years in their past. I would be very interested in your understanding of the time frame involved

Isaiah 14 has not fully happened yet and Jer. 50 and 51 is being fulfilled right now.

What a difference her fall will make! “The whole earth has come to rest, has become free of disturbance. People have become cheerful with joyful cries. Even the juniper trees have also rejoiced at you, the cedars of Lebanon, saying, ‘Ever since you have lain down, no woodcutter comes up against us.’” (Isaiah 14:7, 8) The kings of the nations round about were, to Babylon’s rulers, like trees to be cut down and used for their own purposes. Well, all of that is finished. The Babylonian woodcutter has cut his last tree!

Do you understand what they are talking about in this verse? If you do, you will understand that the last tree has not been cut. I look forward to your explanation.

Jeremish 10:3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. 4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. 5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

Originally posted by Techsnow
THank you for clearing this up for us Sparky.

Not so fast Techsnow. We are far from finished.

I really dont understand why you would even consider Nimrod, the great grandson of Noah, as having anything to to do with this. Nimrod lived around 2269 B.C.E

Because of Ecclesiastes 1:9

The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

King Nimrod

He is mentioned in the Table of Nations (Genesis 10), in the First Book of Chronicles, and in the Book of Micah. In the Bible he is an obscure figure; in later interpretations, as recorded by Josephus and the rabbis who compiled the midrash, he is the subject of innumerable legends. The most prominent of these was the story that he built the Tower of Babel.

He didn't live long enough to be the King that tormented Israel. It wasn't Nimrod.
The Hebrew text says King Halel.


[edit on 14-9-2006 by Techsnow]

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

What you say is what most people believe, but it is not correct.
Well, as you say Jeremiah 50 and 51 is referring to the future overthrow by the Medes but it did not happen in 539 BC in fact, it has not happened yet and will happen in the future.

Bible Chronology and secular history both point to the Fall of Babylon by the Medes and Persians on or about 539 BCE.
History records that Babylon took the Jews into captivity. Yet, about 40 years before this happened Jeremiah foretold it. Isaiah predicted it some 150 years before it happened. He also foretold that the Jews would return from captivity. So did Jeremiah, saying that they would be restored to their land after 70 years.—Isaiah 39:6, 7; 44:26; Jeremiah 25:8-12; 29:10.

This return was made possible by the overthrow of Babylon by the Medes and Persians in 539 B.C.E. It was foretold by Isaiah nearly 200 years before it happened, and by Jeremiah about 50 years before it occurred. Jeremiah said that the Babylonian soldiers would put up no fight. Both Isaiah and Jeremiah foretold that Babylon’s protecting waters, the river Euphrates, “must be dried up.” Isaiah even gave the name of the conquering Persian general, Cyrus, and said that before him “the gates [of Babylon] will not be shut.”—Jeremiah 50:38; 51:11, 30; Isaiah 13:17-19; 44:27; 45:1.

Secular History also establishes this fact:
The Greek historian Herodotus explained that Cyrus actually diverted the flow of the Euphrates and “the river sank to such an extent that the natural bed of the stream became fordable.”5 Thus, during the night, enemy soldiers marched along the riverbed and entered the city through gates that had been carelessly left open. “Had the Babylonians been apprised of what Cyrus was about,” Herodotus continued, “they would have made fast all the street-gates which [were] upon the river . . . But, as it was, the Persians came upon them by surprise and so took the city.”6 Actually, the Babylonians were involved in drunken revelry, as the Bible explains, and as Herodotus confirms.7 (Daniel 5:1-4, 30) Both Isaiah and Jeremiah foretold that Babylon would eventually become uninhabited ruins. And that is what happened. Today Babylon is a desolate heap of mounds.—Isaiah 13:20-22; Jeremiah 51:37, 41-43.

Cyrus also restored the Jews to their homeland. Over two centuries before, Jehovah had foretold of Cyrus: “All that I delight in he will completely carry out.” (Isaiah 44:28) True to prophecy, after 70 years Cyrus returned the captives to their homeland, in 537 B.C.E. (Ezra 1:1-4) An ancient Persian inscription, called the Cyrus Cylinder, has been found that clearly states the policy of Cyrus to return captives to their homelands. “As to the inhabitants of Babylon,” Cyrus is recorded as having said, “I (also) gathered all their (former) inhabitants and returned (to them) their habitations.”

While Babylon was still a world power the Bible foretold its conquest by a symbolic two-horned ram, representing “the kings of Media and Persia.” (Daniel 8:20)

There is really no question as to Babylons fall on or around 539 BCE. If you can offer some scriptural proof otherwise, pleease do so.

One more point. Bible prophesies do often have an initial fullfillment & a spiritual one. Babylon has a greater spiritual significance than just a geographical region.
Ancient Babylon stood in opposition to God and was the seat of false worship.
Ancient Babylon was outstandingly noted for its religion and its defiance of God.
Ancient Babylonian religious concepts and practices are found in religions worldwide.
Ancient Babylon has a modern counterpart—“Babylon the Great,” the world empire of false religion. (Revelation 17:1-3, 5, 15)

Originally posted by Techsnow

He didn't live long enough to be the King that tormented Israel. It wasn't Nimrod.
The Hebrew text says King Halel.

Nimrod = Baal = Satan = Lucifer

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

Nimrod = Baal = Satan = Lucifer


You have been lied to.

Oh man this ruins a past avatar of mine which showed Arch Angel Lucifer being banished to hell because he wanted to be greater than god. Eh, leave it to an atheist to get something like this wrong.

Sorry that I got so for off topic on this thread.

1.) Nimrod was a mere man.

2.) Baal; In the Scriptures, the Hebrew word ba′‛al is employed with reference to (1) a husband as owner of his wife (Ge 20:3); (2) landowners (Jos 24:11, ftn); (3) “owners of the nations” (Isa 16:8, ftn); (4) “confederates” (literally, “owners [masters] of the covenant”) (Ge 14:13, ftn); (5) owners or possessors of tangibles (Ex 21:28, 34; 22:8; 2Ki 1:8, ftn); (6) persons or things having something that is characteristic of their nature, manner, occupation, and the like, for example, an archer (literally, “owner of arrows”) (Ge 49:23), a “creditor of the debt” (literally, “owner of a debt of his hand”) (De 15:2), “anyone given to anger” (literally, “owner of anger”) (Pr 22:24), “judicial antagonist” (literally, “owner of judgment”) (Isa 50:8, ftn); (7) Jehovah (Ho 2:16); (8) false gods (Jg 2:11, 13).

The term hab·Ba′‛al (the Baal) is the designation applied to the false god Baal. The expression hab·Be‛a·lim′ (the Baals) refers to the various local deities thought of as owning or possessing and having influence over particular places.

3.) Satan: The Bible reveals that he is a real person, not just the evil in someone’s heart. (Matthew 4:1-11) Although created as a righteous angel, “he did not stand fast in the truth.” How fitting it is that he is named Satan the Devil! (Revelation 12:9) He is called “Satan,” or “resister,” because he has opposed and resisted Jehovah. This criminal is also called “Devil,” meaning “slanderer,” for he has blasphemously misrepresented God.

4.) Lucifer; A descriptive designation applied to the “king of Babylon.” (Isa 14:4, 12) The Hebrew expression thus translated (NW, Ro, Yg) comes from a root meaning “shine.” (Job 29:3) The rendering “Lucifer” (KJ, Da) is derived from the Latin Vulgate.
The “shining one” is represented as saying in his heart: “Above the stars of God I shall lift up my throne, and I shall sit down upon the mountain of meeting.” (Isa 14:13) Biblical evidence points to Mount Zion as the “mountain of meeting.” (See MOUNTAIN OF MEETING.) Hence, since stars can refer to kings (Nu 24:17; Re 22:16), “the stars of God” must be the kings of the Davidic line who ruled from Mount Zion. The “king of Babylon” (the dynasty of Babylonian kings), reflecting the attitude of Satan the god of this system of things, indicated his ambition to lift up his throne “above the stars of God” by desiring to make the kings of the line of David mere vassals and then finally to dethrone them. Like stars that shed light, the “king of Babylon” shone brightly in the ancient world and could be termed “shining one.”

I don't know what else I can add to this subject, so I will just sit back and enjoy the discussion.

[edit on 14-9-2006 by Sparky63]

Originally posted by Sparky63


There is really no question as to Babylons fall on or around 539 BCE. If you can offer some scriptural proof otherwise, pleease do so.

Sure, first this from Wikipedia.

In 539 BC the Neo-Babylonian Empire fell to Cyrus the Great, king of Persia. It is said that Cyrus walked through the gates of Babylon without encountering any resistance. He later issued a decree permitting the exiled Jews to return to their own land, and allowed their temple to be rebuilt.

and this.

The constant turmoil virtually emptied the city of Babylon. A tablet dated 275 BC states that the inhabitants of Babylon were transported to Seleucia, where a palace was built, as well as a temple given the ancient name of E-Saggila. With this deportation, the history of Babylon comes practically to an end, though more than a century later, it was found that sacrifices were still performed in its old sanctuary. By 141 BC, when the Parthian Empire took over the region, Babylon was in complete desolation and obscurity.

A sword did not come against Babylon as prophesied, Cyrus walked in. Babylon was later abandoned.

Thus the slain shall fall in the land of the Chaldeans, and they that are thrust through in her streets.

The prophecy is against Babylon and THE LAND OF THE CHALDEANS.

The word that the LORD spake against Babylon and against the land of the Chaldeans by Jeremiah the prophet.

Did a people from the North AND a great nation AND many kings come with Cyrus?

Jeremish 50:41 Behold, a people shall come from the north, and a great nation, and many kings shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.

Did nations gather together from a far country from the end of heaven

Isaiah 13:1 The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see. 2 Lift ye up a banner upon the high mountain, exalt the voice unto them, shake the hand, that they may go into the gates of the nobles. 3 I have commanded my sanctified ones, I have also called my mighty ones for mine anger, even them that rejoice in my highness. 4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts mustereth the host of the battle. 5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.

Did nations come from the utmost border in 539 BC???

Jeremiah 50:26 Come against her from the utmost border, open her storehouses: cast her up as heaps, and destroy her utterly: let nothing of her be left.

What assembly of nations came against Babylon with CYRUS?

For, lo, I will raise and cause to come up against Babylon an assembly of great nations from the north country: and they shall set themselves in array against her; from thence she shall be taken: their arrows shall be as of a mighty expert man; none shall return in vain.

Jeremiah 50 and 51 are happening right now reguardless of what people have said in the past.


DID YOU COME UP WITH AN ANSWER OF WHAT TREE THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT IN JEREMIAH 10??????? Don't make it harder than it is, just read what it says.

Thanks

Originally posted by Sparky63


1.) Nimrod was a mere man.

Ecclesiastes 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

Really, is the Antichrist to come a mere man?

Also find out what happens to Nimrod when he dies. It is he that becomes Baal the sun god, the false Day Star. Check Nimrod, Baal, Semiramis and Tammuz.

[edit on 14-9-2006 by Sun Matrix]

Sun Matrix, I see absolutely no connection to the Anti-Christ or to Nimrod in the verse you are quoting from Ecclesiastes. The verse as quoted could mean anything at all or nothing at all. No new thing under the sun. Sounds more like the Moon being reflected light only, or that there is no new life, but only matter/life trapped in a repetitive cycle.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix


Did a people from the North AND a great nation AND many kings come with Cyrus?

Jeremish 50:41 Behold, a people shall come from the north, and a great nation, and many kings shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.

Did nations gather together from a far country from the end of heaven

Isaiah 13:1 The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see. 2 Lift ye up a banner upon the high mountain, exalt the voice unto them, shake the hand, that they may go into the gates of the nobles. 3 I have commanded my sanctified ones, I have also called my mighty ones for mine anger, even them that rejoice in my highness. 4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts mustereth the host of the battle. 5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.

Yes a careful review of facts reveal that other nations joined Media & persia in the overthowing of Babylon. the Bible clearly indicates that the Medes and the Persians were not alone. Isaiah mentions only the Medes by name, but a number of nations will be allies against Babylon—Media, Persia, Elam, and other nations. (Jeremiah 50:9; 51:24, 27, 28) Along with Media & Persia were the kingdoms of Ar′a·rat, Min′ni and Ash′ke·naz

Did nations come from the utmost border in 539 BC???
Jeremiah 50:26 Come against her from the utmost border, open her storehouses: cast her up as heaps, and destroy her utterly: let nothing of her be left.
What assembly of nations came against Babylon with CYRUS?

PLease see my comment above. Media & Persia, Ar′a·rat, Min′ni and Ash′ke·naz

Jeremiah 50 and 51 are happening right now reguardless of what people have said in the past.

With all due respect, you have yet to prove this to be true. Speculating on Bible prophesy is both dangerous and deceptive. In order for your statement above to be true, you would have to show that every statement about Ancient Babylon made my Jeremiah, Isaiah & Daniel has its modern day fullfillment in the current situation in Iraq. Can you do so? I am not challenging you, you are free to believe what you want, but I hope you hold your statements and ideas to the same level of scrutiny that you hold others. For instance, your curious statements about Nimrod. They are vague, at least to me, and his connection to the prophesies in Isaiah has not been clearly explained. Perhaps I missed them in my overly long posts.

DID YOU COME UP WITH AN ANSWER OF WHAT TREE THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT IN JEREMIAH 10??????? Don't make it harder than it is, just read what it says.

Thanks

Jer 10:3 refers to someone cutting down a tree in order to fashion an Idol out of it.
JEr 10:4 describes the silver & gold used to decorate it.
Jer 10:5 describes how ineffective it is. this custom was not to practiced by Gods people.
In comparison to these useless Idols vs describes God great & mighty in power. His people are instructed not to fear them. This would be good advise for those jews living in captivity in Babylon.

If you have another explanation for this please share it with us along with the scriptural backing to support your claims.

[edit on 14-9-2006 by Sparky63]

[edit on 14-9-2006 by Sparky63]

[edit on 14-9-2006 by Sparky63]