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Jewish man removed from airplane for praying

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posted on Sep, 12 2006 @ 08:18 AM
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Originally posted by Astygia
As to the rocking back and forth thing, guess I overlooked that. That would make me uncomfortable, but aren't there better ways to handle things? This kinda sends the message "no religion on planes".


I'm confused? The man was acting in an unusual way. It doesn't send the message no religion on planes, of course religons are and will carry on being allowed. If it was part of my religion to rock back and forth while murmuring a prayer, yes I don't think it should be allowed, especially with the current hysteria. Perhaps I am missing something but does it state in their religion they have to rock back and forth?




posted on Sep, 12 2006 @ 08:34 AM
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Well is nothing wrong with praying or just reading the bible or any book on an airplane.

Like another poster before me said, it was the rocking what made others uncomfortable.

The airplanes are narrow and when you are sitting in the same row with somebody that can not be still like a child it makes your feel like screaming.

I had one man sitting next to me that was so nervous about the fight from PR to OL that he could not stop talking even about terrorist.

Nothing happen to him and nobody complained even when it make me uncomfortable, I just spend two dollars on headphones and took a very intense interest on the movie that was shown on the fight.
I am glad that he was not rocking.

[edit on 12-9-2006 by marg6043]



posted on Sep, 12 2006 @ 08:39 AM
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I subscribe to no religion. To do so would be an admission of weakness and irrationality.

Whether it be devout muslim, jew, or christian, these people all make me uncomfortable because they devote their lives to the preachings of liars and scam artists.

If you are gonna pray, keep it to your bloody self. If i saw this event I would look the man dead in the eye and say something along the lines of 'Your god wont save you if this plane crashes'



posted on Sep, 12 2006 @ 08:43 AM
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I'm kind of amazed no one has ever seen that before, the rocking back and forth. Is NYC the only place with Hasidic Jews? I knew they rocked back in forth because it was like bowing before G-d, but I had to Google to find out it's called 'shokeling'.



posted on Sep, 12 2006 @ 09:13 AM
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So, it wasn't his religion, it was his rocking?

I don't believe that for a second. C'mon. If you watch southpark, you kow how a hasidic jew prays. This is just a chance to launch on anyone who isn't a middle-class white person, talking about the stock in their pension fund for four hours while they sit next to you on a plane.

The rocking is an excuse. It's a rationalization; white middle-class suburbanites don't pray except in church at Christmas and Easter---anyone else is probably a nut. Kick 'em off the plane.

Will you kick off the elderly, if they have to "rock" back and forth to work up the momentum to climb out of their seats?

Will you forbid someone to get on a plane, because they are wearing an i-pod and rocking out while they stand in line? I've seen teenagers rock and gyrate while sitting in their seats, rapping under their breath. Do we kick them off? Please??

So, you can rock out to music, but not to the Deity. Hmmm. No thought control there.

What if he was rocking back and forth, because he had to pee?

No autistic people on flights?

C'mon, this is just hassling people for being nonwesterners.

I think nephyx shouldn't be allowed on planes. As an atheist, he has no moral compass. No telling what he'll do next.

Come to think of it, no one here is normal. NONE of you should be allowed to fly.


By the way, I'm rocking back and forth and murmuring quitely while I post this

*shokel shokel shokel*

(and I'm not even praying.)



posted on Sep, 12 2006 @ 09:54 AM
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Wow... where to begin...

You know... a lot of people are nervous to fly. Some because of 9/11, some because of various phobias having nothing to do with 9/11 (isn't it shocking that not everyone bases their lives on 9/11?!).

I've done a lot of travelling in my day, including travelling pretty soon after 9/11 and there were plenty of nervous people on those flights. "Will we be ok?" "Will someone try to hurt us" etc. A lot of those people tried to alleviate those fears by praying or reading religious texts. Asking God to watch over them and protect them. Whether that was done by reading the Quran, or by reciting Psalms, or the Jewish Tefilat HaDerech (traveler's prayer), the theme was a common one. Someone hoping that their flight would take off, fly, and land safely. It's still fairly common today, maybe not as common as it was in October 2001, but still fairly common.

Some of the "logic" I have seen in this thread is flawed and absolutely pathetic. Because the hijackers prayed while carrying out their operation that means that no Muslim, or Jew, or Christian etc should be able to pray on a plane? So now anyone who partakes in the action of prayer is clearly a hijacker? Opinions like that make it pretty clear why certain religious groups develop resentment. Perhaps we should ban Skullcaps or Crucifixes from planes as well? Devout Jewish men and Muslim men wear skullcaps, and since devout Muslims were the hijackers, that means every man wearing a skullcap is a hijacker, right?

Better yet are the comments that the Jewish man should have known better! He should have known that by praying he would piss off the paranoid! Hey, did you ever think for a moment that the vast majority of the planet isn't nuts? I live in New York City. I see all sorts of interesting rituals. I see interesting parades of Christians with Palm leaves, and people wearing ash on their heads. I see/hear Muslims yelling out confessional statements in Arabic asking for forgiveness. I see Jewish people blowing ram's horns and eating in huts in September. Should any of those people walk around saying "I should know better than to do this because of the slim chance I might make some fruitcake nervous that I'm trying to blow up the world?" Come on now.

This is inexcusable behavior. The man went through the security checks. He was cleared to fly. Most people know that devout Jews sway/rock while praying, as stated, a simple google search even revealed the name of the practice. Have we finally reached the day and age where those who live under rocks all their lives and are ignorant of everyone but themselves are now in charge? Should we not enter taxis with gentlemen who wear turbans because "They should know their turban would make me nervous, what were they thinking?"

Grow up. Society is comprised of many many different cultures and religions, not just ones that certain people feel comfortable around.

At the other end of things, I am equally disturbed to see comments like "jews don't hijack planes, so they shouldn't have been nervous". Again, flawed, baseless logic. There are extremists in every group. Such is life. When I am on a plane I am no more "nervous" sitting next to a hasidic Rabbi than I am sitting next to a Muslim, a Christian, a Buddhist, or an atheist for that matter. How anyone can feel otherwise simply boggles my mind. Can you even deny ignorance when it's that deeply rooted in someone?

On a personal note, I am deeply disturbed by one member's conduct here in deciding that atheism is the only way and people who believe in God are less intelligent. That's not how WE function here, you would do well to learn how to respect the beliefs of others as much as you'd like them to respect yours. Take the suggestion.



posted on Sep, 12 2006 @ 09:56 AM
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Dr. Strangecraft- I respect your views as a valued member and have seen exceptional posts on your behalf. Unfortunately, I disagree with you on this matter. I do not think it is a point the witch out on a flight otherwise we won't board scenario, infact I think you are taking the situation out of complete context.

A teenager nodding their head to music would be seen and would be apparent, whether that be Muslim, Christian, Jew, Asian or white person. I'd be perfectly happy sitting next to an Asian(s) on board a flight. If a person, whether that be of all creeds/ colour started swaying frantically while murmuring, yes it would be extremely off putting.

Perhaps bowing is 'their' type of praying- is it really that essential to sway so frantically? Given the current hysteria and panic on planes I certinaly wouldn't feel comfortable.

And I for one do not board planes with my eyes out on who the 'witch' is and I cerinely wouldn't go finger pointing without good cause.



posted on Sep, 12 2006 @ 10:00 AM
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Originally posted by nephyx
I subscribe to no religion. To do so would be an admission of weakness and irrationality.

Whether it be devout muslim, jew, or christian, these people all make me uncomfortable because they devote their lives to the preachings of liars and scam artists.

If you are gonna pray, keep it to your bloody self. If i saw this event I would look the man dead in the eye and say something along the lines of 'Your god wont save you if this plane crashes'


I don't wanna derail the thread by getting into a religious debate, so let's just say you feel it's an admission of weakness and irrationality. I'm Christian, and I'm a pretty rational guy, not weak either.

As to the rocking being "written as a rule", I don't know, but to him it's probably no different than when I clasp my hands together. I think it probably could have been handled better..like "Sir, your rocking is making passengers nervous, could you stop?". Sure he'd be miffed, but at least they asked first.



posted on Sep, 12 2006 @ 10:16 AM
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Originally posted by Flyer

Originally posted by intrepid
It wouldn't fly in the States, with the "freedom of speech", etc. Why is this acceptable in Canada?
Theres is no freedom of speech in the US, havent you noticed that yet?


uh, apparently there is none in canada...not top mention how ignorant it was. jews rock back and forth as they pray anb they chant.



posted on Sep, 12 2006 @ 10:26 AM
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OK, perhaps a little over the top.. BUT, if it was my religion to drink blood and sit with a shroud over my head whispering a prayer, that would be tolerated on a plane? I think there is a time and a place.

As I have said before, his actions of rocking are likely to put people off, regardless of his colour or creed. He may have been an atheist and rocked, he'd still be treated the same.



posted on Sep, 12 2006 @ 11:33 AM
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It's stuff like this that let you know

Your racism has gone too far.


And you know, if this guy was a muslim, this wouldn't have even made it to the news.



[edit on 12-9-2006 by Syrian Sister]



posted on Sep, 12 2006 @ 11:52 AM
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Originally posted by nephyx
I subscribe to no religion. To do so would be an admission of weakness and irrationality.

Whether it be devout muslim, jew, or christian, these people all make me uncomfortable because they devote their lives to the preachings of liars and scam artists.

If you are gonna pray, keep it to your bloody self. If i saw this event I would look the man dead in the eye and say something along the lines of 'Your god wont save you if this plane crashes'


Jesus loves you even if you dont beleive in him!



posted on Sep, 12 2006 @ 12:05 PM
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No he doesn't. That's why you go to hell if you don't believe in him and accept him as savior.





All the hijackers were praying as they slammed into the WTC, it would look very suspicious if he was doing the same.



If this guy had just killed all the pilots and cut-up a few passengers before sitting back in his seat and praying, then yeah, your logic works. But he didn't so your logic doesn't.




As to the rocking being "written as a rule", I don't know, but to him it's probably no different than when I clasp my hands together. I think it probably could have been handled better..like "Sir, your rocking is making passengers nervous, could you stop?". Sure he'd be miffed, but at least they asked first.


Very astute.



posted on Sep, 12 2006 @ 12:21 PM
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Im a little shocked, at this guy being removed for prayngon a Plane. What next? If anyone goes on a plane now wearing say a cros or a crucifix will they be removed from a plane also?


This world is going just plane crazy



posted on Sep, 12 2006 @ 01:43 PM
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That makes me sick. What next? No praying in resturaunts before you eat? "Sorry sir, your rocking back and forth is making people question our food. Get out"

Or on busses because you could be rocking back and forth to make a bomb go off.


He was probably praying to God to ask for His strength, or thanking Him for a safe flight that he didn't get blown up. Heck he might have even been thanking God for making sure he didn't get thrown off the plane!

Depending on how serious my prayer is I occasionally rock back and forth. To him, he is bowing, to me I am in a fetal position trying to humble myself and ask for divine intervention in my life. If someone told me to knock it off while I was in one of those moments I would be seriously pissed.



posted on Sep, 12 2006 @ 01:52 PM
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Tsiv, there really is a difference between what goes on in a plane versus a restaurant. I'm not excusing the airline, but after 9/11 simply boarding a plane is a sensitive subject. Like the OP said, some cultural understanding would be in order.

Plus, I'm willing to bet this man wasn't lurching back and forth like a crazy person. I've never seen how they pray, but I'm sure it wasn't like something out of an asylum.



posted on Sep, 12 2006 @ 01:55 PM
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Originally posted by Astygia
Tsiv, there really is a difference between what goes on in a plane versus a restaurant. I'm not excusing the airline, but after 9/11 simply boarding a plane is a sensitive subject. Like the OP said, some cultural understanding would be in order.

Plus, I'm willing to bet this man wasn't lurching back and forth like a crazy person. I've never seen how they pray, but I'm sure it wasn't like something out of an asylum.


True, I went off the deep end for a minute with anger. I've gotten weird looks in resturaunts but never thrown out.

But I mean come on... thrown out of a plane for praying? I am SO sure that we was going to suddenly explode and kill everyone right afterward.



posted on Sep, 12 2006 @ 02:22 PM
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Given the scrutiny that is bound to be given to ANY expression of fervent religious ritual ONBOARD a plane...wouldn't it have simply been wiser to pray PRIOR to boarding...???

Seriously. A lot of people are NOT familiar with all of the various religions of the world, and it could certainly be taken in the wrong context. Bottom line, if you fly, and you make others nervous, expect to get booted from the flight...PERIOD.

Quite frankly, he's damn lucky he didn't get jumped by a bunch of rednecks....
(and sadly, that's a somewhat serious comment).



The man went through the security checks. He was cleared to fly.


So were the hijackers on 9/11.....


Again, one should be mindful of not making others nervous on a plane....


[edit on 12-9-2006 by Gazrok]



posted on Sep, 12 2006 @ 02:24 PM
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Couple of things here.

1. The noonday prayer only takes a couple of minutes. If this was the prayer on the road, even less. So unless he was doing something other than the usual prayers, It's not like he did this for the whole of a 4 hour flight.


2. Did anybody ASK HIM what he was doing?
That could explain a lot on either side. If they said, "excuse me sir; some of the other passengers and I were wondering about your behavior. . . . none of us knows the language you were talking in just now; can you tell me a bit about it? If he is belligerant, or mysterious, then you kick him off the plane for attitude, just like any other passenger. If he explains that he was praying a 3000 year old prayer for people "on the road," and how he is anxious because he's flying near the 9-11 date, and wants to see his wife and kids, well, then you learn a bit about other cultures. . . .

This technique is little practiced today, because it is take commensurate acting skills, as well as quick wits. The traditional term for it is INVESTIGATION. But again, that is just so-o september 10th, isn't it? No one cares, now.


3. This is less about religion than it is about xenophobia.
Maybe he wasn't praying. Maybe he was autistic, or having an epileptic seizure. But instead of seeing if he needs HELP, instead of focusing on meeting needs, we are focusing on his DANGER/STRANGER quotient.

Look, society is a pendelum that swings a delicate balance between protecting the safety of the community, versus protecting individual expression. This is just an example that we are becoming anti-individualistic:

Your religion is merely your personal hobby, and has no place in public life. Your beliefs about some spooky sky-God should be put on hold anytime you leave your house and mix with society. Everyone else is free to dye their hair purple or wear a t-shirt emblazoned with a picture of a turd wearing a santa hat---but you'd better not bring YOUR hobby into the public arena.

The rest of society owes you nothing; but you owe everone else an explanation.

Remember that you need to conduct yourself so that no one, no matter how ignorant, could possibly be offended by their own mis-interpretations of your actions.

Enjoy your flight. Care for some peanuts? They're Kosher.

.

[edit on 12-9-2006 by dr_strangecraft]



posted on Sep, 12 2006 @ 02:47 PM
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Originally posted by Gazrok
Given the scrutiny that is bound to be given to ANY expression of fervent religious ritual ONBOARD a plane...wouldn't it have simply been wiser to pray PRIOR to boarding...???

Seriously. A lot of people are NOT familiar with all of the various religions of the world, and it could certainly be taken in the wrong context. Bottom line, if you fly, and you make others nervous, expect to get booted from the flight...PERIOD.

Quite frankly, he's damn lucky he didn't get jumped by a bunch of rednecks....
(and sadly, that's a somewhat serious comment).



The man went through the security checks. He was cleared to fly.


So were the hijackers on 9/11.....


Again, one should be mindful of not making others nervous on a plane....


[edit on 12-9-2006 by Gazrok]


Gotta disagree with you Gaz, this is Canada, no rednecks here, BUT this is the "Land of the Great PC". Hell, we're as diverse as any country in the world. This has been blown WAY out of proportion here at ATS. I'll wager the issue is settled already, if B'ria Brith(sp) is willing to let it go.

I don't think this guy was doing anything other than trying to comfort himself, hell(sorry, no pun intended), that's what religion is for. Frightened to fly, seek your god.

BTW nephyx, you are making those of us that aren't religious look bad. Why not take it down a notch.



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