Evidence for God

Is it possible that god is trying to proove his benevilence to me through Paris Hilton? I think I should set up a church where we worship her like the Virgin Mary or something.

Yeah the thing about the photon or any Boson is that it's not Either a particle nor a wave. It acts like both and is something we can't really catagorize as either so we use them as anologies. Again it's not an issue of you say to-mato and I say Tom-ato with in regard to bosons being a wave in your perspective and a particle to mine becuase it's niether. So it can't really be brought up as a point. Listining to your inner thoughts and intuition is also not proof of god. Sure god may be talking to you through that manner, but apparently he's also talking to a lot of homeless people in the same way. They say they talk to them all day. Either they're right and god can't seem to communicate with any higher caliber people anymore, or the homeless guy is just sadly mistaken and is probably pulling a castaway senerio and putting human qualities to non-entities, ala wilson the soccerball/bestfriend with personality and all.

Originally posted by shihulud

Originally posted by LancerJ1

There's historical evidence that Jesus existed. Denying this is just being stuborn. I have already shown logically in my first post why Jesus wasnt lying or was a madman.

Have you read the New Testament for yourself?

There's NO evidence whatsoever to back up the claim that Jesus existed, NONE, NADA, Absolutely ZIP. Please show this evidence!!!!!
You've shown logically have you???? Yet you deny logic in other aspects of religion. The thing is, you weren't there nor do you know of anyone (still alive) who was there. You cannot, with or without logic, prove that jesus wasn't a lying conman or someone with delusions of grandeur, simply can't be done.

And why on Earth would I want to read the NT? skimmed over the bugger getting ammo to rebuttal claims made by you lot, but read it NO.


G

I dont have the actual historical documents on me, but i gave 2 links to where these documents have been studied. Ask any historian or scholar and they would agree a man named Jesus existed. If we cant take historical information, provided by numerous sources as evidence then we cant take anything in our history as fact.

To me, what i have given does show logically why Jesus wasnt lying. If you cannot see even the slightest bit of logic in what i have given then you have a problem i cannot help you with.

How can you discredit the New Testament or even Christianity if you havent read the New Testament for yourself? What credibility can you be given?

Originally posted by JBourne
It would be very easy for someone to lie back then and get away with it. for one they dont have forums like these for people to conspire.
you say he wouldnt lie because he was totally against lying because its a sin, but if he knew he was lying then there wouldnt be any sins upon himself anyway because he would know that what he was saying was wrong.
He could easily of just been saying what he knew the majority of people wanted to here.

But as i said before, why would he die for a lie? He knew he would suffer a terrible death for the things he was saying.

Originally posted by babloyi
Hello Lancer.

I won't go into details as you didn't seem to either, but how can we be sure about the authenticity of the new testament? Many of them were not written by eyewitnesses, the oldest copies are many years younger than when the originals are supposed to have been written, the originals were supposedly written many years after the fact.

read this page and it might just change the way you look at the authenticity of the bible.

www.av1611.org...

Originally posted by BASSPLYR
maybe you didn't read my post but I have asked him too proove himself, his existance in anyway that I would recognize. I think aliens are running around our upper atmosphere as I type this so it's not like I don't have an open mind/heart to the subject of god being real. I just haven't seen any evidence even when I've asked real nicely to god.

Question how come God can't give me any type of proof and let people like Hitler exist. Don't give me any free will stuff either, why would he create evil in the first place. Seems to me god is not on my side with anything. Paris Hiltons got a pretty good life. I think Paris Hilton was chosen by god to have so much abundance of great in her life, because she's such a good person.

If you dont want 'free will stuff' then what do you want? God created the possibilty of evil. There was no evil at the Beginning, but when Adam and Eve fell to temptation evil entered the world. Evil is a choice. Everyone is tempted to do evil, but God has given us the will to resist temptation. Like it or not, but you are asking that God shouldn't give us a choice in what we do.

God has no 'side'. It's us who choose to be on his 'side' or not. I dont think Paris Hilton has that great a life or can be labled a good person as really know one is a good person in the true sense of the word. Only God is truly good.

Often those who have a strong faith in God suffer tragedies and misfortune in their lives, as God is testing their faith. A great example is Job from the Bible. Often it's the poor and sick and people who suffer misfortune who are more likely to accept God. Rich people are more likely to think they dont need God.

In the end it doesnt matter how 'good' you lived your life, but if you believed in Jesus.

The only thing required to avoid eternal punishment is to accept Jesus as your saviour and believe he died for your sins.

that just makes it sound like a typical cult. The only way i would devote my life and follow orders from something like this would be if there was undeniable proof which there never has been. you say the only thing required is to accept jesus as my saviour and believe he died for my sins. i would never except a single person as my saviour, the only person who can truly save people is themselves. and id never believe he died for my sins because i dont believe in sins, plus i dont exactly think id have many sins anyway because i know how to respect other humans without needing to accept a man as my saviour. the only "proof ive heard from people about the existence of god is "because the bible said so."
Its easy enough to lie when speaking never mind in a book.

Originally posted by LancerJ1

I dont have the actual historical documents on me, but i gave 2 links to where these documents have been studied. Ask any historian or scholar and they would agree a man named Jesus existed. If we cant take historical information, provided by numerous sources as evidence then we cant take anything in our history as fact.

To me, what i have given does show logically why Jesus wasnt lying. If you cannot see even the slightest bit of logic in what i have given then you have a problem i cannot help you with.

How can you discredit the New Testament or even Christianity if you havent read the New Testament for yourself? What credibility can you be given?

Granted I dont disagree that there was a historical figure that the biblical jesus was based on but he was not the jesus of the bible and and to use this as a supposition that jesus was divine or done the things portrayed in the bible i.e miracles, is unsubstantiated
For one thing none of these early writers mention jesus by name except Josephus (his quote is debateable in that it could be an addition by early christian writers and the fact that he mentions at least 20 different jesus's) and none of them were written close to the date of the biblical jesus. They still dont give any credence for the existance of a biblical jesus.
And yes you really cant take everything in history as fact due to the fact that history is written by the victors and is only one side of the story.


G

First and foremost, I would like to say that there is no real hands on, 100% irrefutible proof of God, Jesus or any other deity within the realms of our worship. If there was, we wouldn't be constantly having this discussion worldwide.

I am 24 years of age. I live in England, i'm male and I come from a family(and area) that is pretty much devoid of Religion.

This is just a basic picture of who I am and where i'm from so that I can give you my personal beliefs.

I believe in God.
God, to me, is Life and Love. God is within us all that we must share with everyone.
Eternal life is the continuation of our love for each other.
I also believe in God as a being, an omnipotent being.
God is in all life.
I do not believe in evil, as evil is a human construct born from our own morality.
That being said, there are things that offend me as a person.
I am life, I am being, I am love, I am God in all its Glory, as are every single person, being on this and every other plane of existence.

I don't know what is to come after this life, I don't have any of the answers for as far as I am aware, I have not died yet so I cannot say who has got it correct in terms of an afterlife.
I do believe that anything we can imagine is likely just the surface of the true wonders that await us all, no matter what with no discrimination.
If Heaven as we imagine exists, I do not believe that there would be any restrictions imposed by God as by suggesting that, you are suggesting God has a limit to what he can allow, thus suggesting there is something outside his possible control which negates Ominpotence.

To those who don't believe, that is a choice that I do not believe would have you punished.
The way I believe has it as this.
God gave life, God is infinite. If God wanted everyone to be exactly the same God would have scrapped Life a long time ago.
God also expects life to progress, and progression moves along with adversity.

Whatever your personal belief is, there are some who think the same, some that think different, but that is what our existence is about.

Sp, with that all I will say is, believe what you want, do what you want and just be the best you, you can be.
If God exists, thats is surely what God would want and If God doesn't exist, well then you haven't wasted anything by being the best you have you?

What an interesting thread! My atheist/objectivist friend and I were just having this same discussion last week. He also believes in objective reality and only agreeing with what can be empirically duplicated in a laboratory. In frustration with my persistence in Christian beliefs he shouted, "show me God and I'll believe in Him"! To which I replied, "show me a lepton, quark or boson and I'll believe in them".

Coupla things to clear up that may reduce some of the antagonism: 1) the word "god" literally means "mighty one". Angels are often referred to as mighty ones but only the divine creator is THE (definitive article) Mighty One. 2) "Son (s) of God" are references specifically to angels. 3) "Lord" literally means ruler.
Human beings as well as angelic beings are referenced in the Bible as "lords".

4) There are 3 types of beings: divine (only 1 of those), spiritual (angelic-fallen or not fallen, and believers who are "reckoned" spiritual by their faith), and fleshly (includes humans, animals, etc.) 5) There is no place of eternal torment.
Any one of these could be a thread in and of itself but I'll stick to the thread we're on.

He who can look into the sky with a telescope, or even with his natural eye alone, and see there the immensity of creation, its symmetry, beauty, order, harmony and diversity, and yet doubt that the Creator of these is vastly his superior both in wisdom and power, or can suppose for a moment that such order came by chance, without a Creator, has so far lost or ignored the faculty of reason as to be properly considered what the Bible terms him, a fool (one who ignores or lacks reason): "The fool hath said in his heart, 'There is no God."

How shortsighted the absurdity which boasts of human skill and ingenuity, and attributes to mere chance the regularity, uniformity and harmony of nature; whch acknowledges the laws of nature, while denying that nature has an intelligent Lawgiver. It is contrary to reason to conclude that intelligent beings were created (or evolved) by a power lacking intelligence.

Originally posted by LancerJ1
Since people have been saying there is no proof of God and creationism, I have decided to write this showing logically why God exists.

Out of all major world religious leaders, Jesus was the only one who actually claimed to be God, claimed he could give eternal life, claimed he could give forgiveness at a future judgment and claimed that his teaching was for every person of all ages in the world.

The existence of Jesus is a fact.

was jesus telling the truth when he committed his soul to the end of time to become the omega and rebound backwards through time to awaken the souls of everone who is god trying to answer all the questions posed to god by god's creation?

the people who are waiting for god's return are still asking the questions:

1) what is god
2) what is the highest number?
3) what is the lowest negative number?
4) what is the definition of "phi"
5) what is the definition of the "golden section"?
6) where is the syllabus for love?

if the part of your subconscious that will always remain true to yourself started counting all the numbers, when would you expect your mind's and you god's return?

numbers are infinite.

and you fear the unknown, right?

fearing the unknown is in you very dna, is it not?

so, if there were a part of your brain that wished to remain true to yourself, would it not be calculating exponentially all possible unknown fears for you?

not to burst your little bubble, but every angel and messenger in the bible said:
"be not afraid"

just stop fearing for one moment.

do you know what the opposite of love is?

hate?

fine then, justify your hate without first fearing that you will lose something you love.

can you do it?

can you justify hating without first loosing that which you love?

what do you love more than the truth itself?

your first love's were:
1) FEAR, the byproduct of "self before service" aka "self pre-serve" aka survive.
2) FOOD, you needed for cellular reproduction.
3) FAMILY, they provided for you and protected you from your fears, and loved.
4) FRIENDS, they made you FEEL wanted and accepted.
5) FORNICATION, you were curious of love, and the physical manifestation of it.
6) FINANCES, you needed this to pacify your loves, and hide your fears (truth).

6 loves, 6 times, beginning with the 6th letter of the "all fib i bet".

666 is the beast within you!

6 loves, 6 times, beginning with the 6th letter of the alphabet.

6 loves you put before god's 7th letter "g".

but look at the end of the alphabet, and count backwards from the end .. .. .

oh, there is my christ's cross, coming back from the end of all time to upload all knowledge of God's end to give to God's beginning!

jesus christ is god's mirror heading home, not to judge, but to be judged, so that we might see if his truth is compatible with our truth.

the mirror of god?

ophiuchus, of eye you choose, time phi you choose . . . . .

edun [mirror] nude
adam [mirror] mad .. . made (*e silent) a .... . . . atom made a what?
man [mirror] nam .... name (*e silent)

ahhh .. . . . atom mad, made man name

the mad atom made man name what?

everything

are the cars smogging up your city and polluting everything?

can you here the automobiles talking?

see i fart?

no .. . ..

c i fart [mirror] trafic.

still looking for god to return?

look inside.

be not afraid.

Originally posted by JBourne

The only thing required to avoid eternal punishment is to accept Jesus as your saviour and believe he died for your sins.

that just makes it sound like a typical cult. The only way i would devote my life and follow orders from something like this would be if there was undeniable proof which there never has been. you say the only thing required is to accept jesus as my saviour and believe he died for my sins. i would never except a single person as my saviour, the only person who can truly save people is themselves. and id never believe he died for my sins because i dont believe in sins, plus i dont exactly think id have many sins anyway because i know how to respect other humans without needing to accept a man as my saviour. the only "proof ive heard from people about the existence of god is "because the bible said so."
Its easy enough to lie when speaking never mind in a book.

A cult is a group devoted to beliefs and goals different then and maybe contradictory to those of the majority religion. eg Jehovah's Witnesses.

I agree there isnt conclusive proof of God, and that is where faith comes in. As the Bible says: "Blessed are those who have not seen, yet still believe".

We all sin everyday. There is no such thing as a big sin, or a little sin. To God, sin is sin and all sin must be punished. If God didnt punish every sin, he would not be a perfect God, because he wouldn't be perfectly just.

Other proof of God is miracles. Miracles happen everyday, most go unoticed. For example there may be a drunk driver in a car and a little boy about to cross the road. The boy is about to cross the road as the driver is approaching but sees a lollipop on the sidewalk dropped by someone not long ago and picks it up. If that person didnt drop his lollipop at that spot and before the little boy came along, the boy would of crossed the road and got killed by the drunk driver.

You could say is was just coincidence, but i believe God intervened in these events, to prevent things like this happening sometimes. You could think of countless other examples like this.

Originally posted by shihulud
And yes you really cant take everything in history as fact due to the fact that history is written by the victors and is only one side of the story.

I agree, but you can take history as evidence when there are numerous sources of the specific account. This is why in comparison to other ancient manuscripts the Bible is deemed to be exceedingly accurate. There are numerous sources, not just by Christians, but by non-Christians also.

Thanks for the imput Esoteric Teacher, but im sorry, i cannot understand what your trying to say?

Originally posted by LancerJ1
Thanks for the imput Esoteric Teacher, but im sorry, i cannot understand what your trying to say?

what i am suggesting is that a soul is the piece of god, the first soul, which is buried deep in our subconscious minds.

i believe this deep part of our subconscious minds is also the part of our mind which always has the intentions of remaining true to ourselves, and is trying to quantify all our fears for us because we are encoded with fear into our very dna.

so, if part of our dna wishes to remain true to ourselves, and we also have dna that causes us to fear the unknown, then could this be the duality of man?

part of us fears, and part of us is truth, and a third is love.

but, if we cannot conquer our own fears, then the part of us that is true may be quantifying all unknowns for us so that we do not fear them.

summary:

if part of our minds are assigned to finding the last positive number, and the last negative number . . ...

when would anyone's true self ever answer the question of what are the last positive and negative numbers?

Yeh and i also know family members of mine who are devout christians and have had some of the worst things imagineable happen to them.

JBourne,
You need a hug. Here's a big one from me to you.

Originally posted by LancerJ1

Originally posted by shihulud
And yes you really cant take everything in history as fact due to the fact that history is written by the victors and is only one side of the story.

I agree, but you can take history as evidence when there are numerous sources of the specific account. This is why in comparison to other ancient manuscripts the Bible is deemed to be exceedingly accurate. There are numerous sources, not just by Christians, but by non-Christians also.

There are not that many historical documents regarding jesus himself, more regarding the christians and the fact that christ was the main man. Most if not all of these other sources for jesus were written as hearsay. Granted the history in the bible is somewhat correct but that is to be expected as the authors were of the age but that still does not mean that a biblical jesus existed. Look at the presuppositions today - the nativity, the 25th December, Easter - all completely fabrications of other religious practices. Plus all the other similarities that jesus has with over 20 pagan gods. There is some discrepances in the biblical story.



G

That's sad JBourne. Do you think they were able to cope with the problems well and remained strong in their faith?

We may not understand why God lets these things happen, but God's wisdom is perfect. It is our understanding that is imperfect. God may let these things happen to people so they can find strength in him rather than in themselves. God can use the most tragic situations for his glory and our weaknesses as his strengths.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
if part of our minds are assigned to finding the last positive number, and the last negative number . . ...

when would anyone's true self ever answer the question of what are the last positive and negative numbers?

Couldn't one count on for infinity?