Evidence for God

Originally posted by babloyi
No, I'm suggesting that he never died, and thus was already alive for those hundreds of people to see. If you'll notice, it wasn't hundreds of people who witnessed his execution.

Nonetheless still a fair number of people including the guards that witnessed his final breath and claimed the earth shook.

At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people. When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happended, they were terrified, and exclaimed, "Surely he was the Sone of God!" Matthew 27:51-54

There are a number of historical documents that confirm his crucifixion. Apart from being crucified, he was stabbed in the side with a spear so if he didnt die from crucifixion he certainly would have died from that. Then he was wrapped in cloth, so if still alive would be suffocated.

But then who are you to believe? The council of Nicea, or later on, when they reintroduced many those books into the collective "Bible"?

What purpose would is serve to put inaccurate books into the Bible?

Originally posted by LancerJ1
Yes. Why would people who saw Christ's resurection and believed in him write something that was not true? Nothing can be added to the Bible and nothing can be taken away.

But then where does that leave free will? If I cannot scream at the sky and insult God directly, do I have free will? If I cannot change the bible and pass around free copies of it, do I have free will? Will I get struck by a thunderbolt?

You can scream to the sky and insult God, he can handle that. You can change the bible like some cults have but this is against God's law. Just as you have free will to shoot someone, it is still against the law.

If that is true, then I love Jesus to such an extent, that I will offer him (however small) an iota of comfort so that while he has to shoulder the burden of the entire humanity's sin, I will relieve him of mine.

So you would prefer to go to Hell then Heaven?

To clarify my position, I already believe in God. I also believe in the existence of Jesus the Christ, but I do not believe that he did (or was required to) die for mine, or anybody else's sins. My conscience especially abhors the idea that blood is required to remove sin. I believe that while God is just, He is also merciful. Being God, He is the ultimate form of mercy. The most merciful thing you could possibly do, to the power of infinity. To obtain forgiveness for my sins, I just ask for it, while promising to do my best never to repeat that sin again.

The only way to be save of our sins was if some other person took the burden of the punishment. But this person had to be sinless, so Jesus was the only one. You do obtain forgiveness for your sins by asking, but you still face the consequences of your sins.

shihulud

It's easy for God to make talking snakes. He made parrots that talk didn't He?

shihulud

It's easy for God to make talking snakes. He made parrots that talk didn't He?

Originally posted by SkyWay
shihulud

It's easy for God to make talking snakes. He made parrots that talk didn't He?

Eh, No. Parrots have the vocal tract for making noises that mimic speech ( in fact budgies are better at mimicking humans than parrots). Snakes do not have that vocal nor ever have had the vocal tract to mimic speech. Plus it couldnt have been a snake that 'spoke' to eve anyway as it supposedly had legs at the time and therefore would NOT be a snake.


G

Originally posted by shihulud

Originally posted by SkyWay
shihulud

It's easy for God to make talking snakes. He made parrots that talk didn't He?

Eh, No. Parrots have the vocal tract for making noises that mimic speech ( in fact budgies are better at mimicking humans than parrots). Snakes do not have that vocal nor ever have had the vocal tract to mimic speech. Plus it couldnt have been a snake that 'spoke' to eve anyway as it supposedly had legs at the time and therefore would NOT be a snake.
G

Nawww....you mean to tell me that a creature with a tongue as long as a snake's is unable to speak?!! I am flabbergasted!!

Wasn't Satan a King that was mentioned in the Old Testament?

Originally posted by SkyWay

Originally posted by shihulud

Originally posted by SkyWay
shihulud

It's easy for God to make talking snakes. He made parrots that talk didn't He?

Eh, No. Parrots have the vocal tract for making noises that mimic speech ( in fact budgies are better at mimicking humans than parrots). Snakes do not have that vocal nor ever have had the vocal tract to mimic speech. Plus it couldnt have been a snake that 'spoke' to eve anyway as it supposedly had legs at the time and therefore would NOT be a snake.
G

Nawww....you mean to tell me that a creature with a tongue as long as a snake's is unable to speak?!! I am flabbergasted!!

Hey maybe it was the long flicking tongue that Eve liked and only imagined that the snake spoke so she could get a good servicing if you know what I mean. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more, say no more LOL

shihulud, just remeber what happened to that snake and don't let it happen to you!

shihulud, just remeber what happened to that snake and don't let it happen to you!

I do not believe that god exists for many reasons. Although i will not completely deny the existence of Jesus i do find it very unlikely that all of the events in the Bible actually happened. Jesus was said to do amazing things such as turn water into wine and return from the dead but when you think about it, how easy is it for people of our time to be tricked or fooled by a simple street magician. The tricks they perform arent real but they do fool the mind into believing that you have just seen magic. And that is in the 21st century.
Imagine around 2000 years ago when magic would have been less understood than today, how hard would it really be to perform tricks that could make hundreds of people believe in something that isnt happening all that time ago?
Christians also say that magic is wrong and people practising magic will be punished. If jesus really did what some people believe he did then what makes what he did any different to wiccan magic which as you should know is based upon good and not bad.

People say to me why dont you believe in heaven? and i reply to them, why would i? Heaven is a place in which knowone has ever visited and in which knowone has any proof of where it is. there are 6 billion people on the planet at the moment. but since the start of time there must be many many more people who have lived and died on this planet. Imagine how many people would have been classified as good people who would go to heaven during the human reign on earth. Heaven would have to be a place that is actually bigger than the earth itself.Where is this place?. There is no way to proove that this place exists and there never will be. People who believe in it are pretty much basing how they live their lives on a person who may or may not have existed and because of the words that came out of his mouth.

i would also like to say that if God made every person on the planet and wishes to teach them the same rules then why is there so many varying religeons out there in the world today? Surely if God was real then there would only be around 20 countries in the world where people would actually be considered for heaven.

I would find it far more likely that when moses came down the mountain with the 10 commandments that he was actually a speaker for one of the worlds first governments or secret societies, who were placing rules for people to live by. And how could there be a better way of making people take note of what was said and to follow the rules set than to tell them that if they dont follow these rules then when they die they will go to the most awful place imaginable, whereas if they follow the rules they will go to a lovely place. Sounds like brainwashing to me.

I do not think that people need rules on how to live right, im an athiest yet i would pride myself in being a good person. i believe that killing shouldnt be done and that you should respect all others. But i dont need to follow rules set by someone who may not exist to be a good person because at the end of the day im smart enough to make my own decisions about what is good and what is evil and so should everybody else out there.

Originally posted by LancerJ1

Originally posted by derfred33
Hi,

to be honest I really don´t know what to believe about God. So I´ll pass the question...

You will never find proofs that God exists, because to proove as we understand it is to follow the scientific method...who would you replicate a miracle in a lab?

Logic doesn´t apply here too, for every logical conclusion you reach, someone could allways give you the exact opposite reasoning ...

G'day

Not making a decision is the same as deciding not to believe.

You want proof, havent you read my first post? If proof is only determined by replication in a lab then we cant prove anything that has happened in our history.

Surely you guys have thought at least a little that what i have given you is a bit of evidence. If what i have given you isnt good enough what is going to be enough?

Can you guys tell me at least that you accept that a man named Jesus existed? Even Muslims accept this.

Hi,

The problem is that what you believers see as proofs we unbelievers see as stories/fairy tales/coincidences/fiction or simply stories that at a certain point of were neccessary to the human civilizations, or part of it to hold together...

About Jesus...

I cant speek for others but for me Jesus probably existed, only He wasn´t the son of God or the savior of the mankind as the bible says, for me He was a great pearson with great influences and a great knowlage of the human being psychology. A person who saw that violence is not the answer to violence and that´s amazing for his time, and a good example to follow even/specially today...

When you say that " even muslims accept the existance of Jesus" that´s true, Muslims follow the "word of God" the way it was delivered to Moses, for them, The prophet mohamad heard his teachings from the angel Gabliel...I guess, the same who told Mary about Jesus...

So it´s natural they don´t reject the idea of Jesus or Moses or Abraam or the bible, they just think their revelation (the coran) is the latest so therefore is the best and closer to the truth.

I may have missed some names here but, the general idea I think it´s understandable...


Now, what I think about christianism, judaism, islamism...

these three religions were born from the same idea that God came to earth and gave hemankind 10 commandments, they all follow the 10 commandments.

If you extract from these tree religions the supernatural side of them you´ll get behaviour codes of conduct, and each one of them fits very well in the time they were "created" Have you asked yourself why don´t the jews eat pork? or why are the jews and christians monogamic and muslims poligamic?

these are only a few examples...

this is not by accident, happens to be that back in these days it was known that some deseases could pass from pigs to humans and the way the rabys found to solve the proble was telling that God prohibited jews from eating pork, that way they could keep pigs away from their homes...They knew too that circumcised man wouldn´t get sexualy transmissible deseases, so the same way, they included that knowlage in the torah as being the sacred knowlage of god...

To ensure that the people follow this set of rules they simply invented a trancendental side where fear and ethernal punishment were what kept people from braking the rules...

the same applies to christianism and Islamism, they both have these type of everyday life rules inprinted on them...

That´s why they´r called religions.

I agree that back on those days it was neccessary to come up with a solution like this , but today we don´t need more fear, we don´t need to continue to live in fear.

that´s why I don´t like religions although I try to follow Jesus teachings...

fred

Originally posted by LancerJ1
What purpose would is serve to put inaccurate books into the Bible?

There are all those 'stories' about how the NIV was translated with a group that involved homosexual people, thus the message of the NIV Bible is adulterated [gasp!]. There is a thread about how the new NIV book they're making is changed because of increased concentration towards the gender behind the words. Why would people put inaccurate books in the Bible? Who knows? People judge things according to the general ideas of what is good or bad in their generation. One of the choices (or perhaps both) of which books go in the Bible are obviously wrong. They can't both be right. So someone has put inaccurate books into the Bible

Originally posted by LancerJ1
You can scream to the sky and insult God, he can handle that. You can change the bible like some cults have but this is against God's law. Just as you have free will to shoot someone, it is still against the law.

You're whole argument is based off the idea that the Bible is fact, but how can you be so sure if you say that messing around with the Bible is possible? What if someone a few hundred years ago did that?

Originally posted by LancerJ1
So you would prefer to go to Hell then Heaven?

Once again, if what you say is true, then Jesus already went through hell for you. Wouldn't you do the same, even if it is just to relieve a little of his pain? You do not love Jesus?

I believe in God/Good - in my opinion it is impossible to deny *something* exists out there but that is a personal thing for each individual. Religion itself has been masterminded and railroaded by various hierarchy groups over the years and that includes the Bible - there is too much hypocrisy in religious teachings to think otherwise imo.

To say "I am one with God" is true - of all of us. We are all matter/energy coming from one source. That is my belief. I can sit here right now and say "I am one with God" - just as Jesus did. But saying those words does not make him or anyone anything other than a human being. That Jeffs guy says he's in direct contact with God and is his Prophet - should be write a bible and/or idolise him too?
I think not. Although Jeff's followers would probably die for him - just as Jesus's followers would have/did.

The Bible has a lot of evil to answer for. Just look around the world right now
to see what religious zealots/fanatics have done to the human race.
If the Bible/Koran etc didn't exist the world would be a much better place.
I wish people in this world would stop taking every single word in that book
so darn literally!!

TechSnow, was Satan referred to as a king in the bible? I don't remember that.

Pretorian3, why are you so angry? Just because someone believes in something you don't doesn't make him stupid. And Lancer (sorry can't remember name) you handled the critisim very well. You do show a good example for your faith in action.

Since this thread is evidence for God, you really can't use Jesus as evidence for God, only as evidence of Jesus if there is any real evidence. Also my understanding is that Jesus was absolutely NOT God as he said alot "These things I have not done, but by the Father who is in me" Over and over he stressed his powerlessness and referred the power to the Father within. He also said "You will do what I have done and more." What happened there? That's almost the same story as in the garden. Do this and you can be like God and live forever.
Then Jesus says "Believe in me and you will live for ever"

It's all crazy, and faith is a wonderful thing and my intention is not to ever waver someone's faith in whatever it is that allows them to feel hope and to get through the painful times in this existance, BUT...........

Written words aren't fact and human words aren't God's words. And I will surely fall into praying to the Christian God if I fear for my safety but I don't know who God is and I do believe that God IS.

Originally posted by JBourne
Imagine around 2000 years ago when magic would have been less understood than today, how hard would it really be to perform tricks that could make hundreds of people believe in something that isnt happening all that time ago?
Christians also say that magic is wrong and people practising magic will be punished. If jesus really did what some people believe he did then what makes what he did any different to wiccan magic which as you should know is based upon good and not bad.

Powers such as driving out demons and healing comes from God. Doing anything not in the name of the Lord such as occult and witchcraft is wrong. How do you explain Jesus coming back alive after been speared in the side and being wrapped in cloth for 3 days?

Through God, there was healing, demons driven out, people raised from the dead, the red sea parted etc, but what can wiccans do? Powers that dont come from God do not exist.

People say to me why dont you believe in heaven? and i reply to them, why would i? Heaven is a place in which knowone has ever visited and in which knowone has any proof of where it is. there are 6 billion people on the planet at the moment. but since the start of time there must be many many more people who have lived and died on this planet. Imagine how many people would have been classified as good people who would go to heaven during the human reign on earth. Heaven would have to be a place that is actually bigger than the earth itself.Where is this place?. There is no way to proove that this place exists and there never will be. People who believe in it are pretty much basing how they live their lives on a person who may or may not have existed and because of the words that came out of his mouth.

I actually think there would be more people living right now then people who have died.

Heaven is beyond space and time.

i would also like to say that if God made every person on the planet and wishes to teach them the same rules then why is there so many varying religeons out there in the world today? Surely if God was real then there would only be around 20 countries in the world where people would actually be considered for heaven.

There are so many varying religions because people have created there own God's because their not happy with other ones, and some dont have a God at all because they dont feel comfortable with that either.

It doesnt matter what country you are in to be a Christian. There are far more than 20 countries where Christianity is the dominant religion. It is one of the few religions that is for every person of all ages.

I would find it far more likely that when moses came down the mountain with the 10 commandments that he was actually a speaker for one of the worlds first governments or secret societies, who were placing rules for people to live by. And how could there be a better way of making people take note of what was said and to follow the rules set than to tell them that if they dont follow these rules then when they die they will go to the most awful place imaginable, whereas if they follow the rules they will go to a lovely place. Sounds like brainwashing to me.

Obeying the 10 commandments isnt the key to heaven. The only thing required is to believe in God and that Jesus died on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins. No one can earn their way to heaven. Though not following these commandments is disobediance to God.

Originally posted by JBourne
I do not think that people need rules on how to live right, im an athiest yet i would pride myself in being a good person. i believe that killing shouldnt be done and that you should respect all others. But i dont need to follow rules set by someone who may not exist to be a good person because at the end of the day im smart enough to make my own decisions about what is good and what is evil and so should everybody else out there.

Not everyone does know what is good and evil.

Originally posted by derfred33
Now, what I think about christianism, judaism, islamism...

these three religions were born from the same idea that God came to earth and gave hemankind 10 commandments, they all follow the 10 commandments.

If you extract from these tree religions the supernatural side of them you´ll get behaviour codes of conduct, and each one of them fits very well in the time they were "created" Have you asked yourself why don´t the jews eat pork? or why are the jews and christians monogamic and muslims poligamic?

The Jews have these codes of conduct to show they are different from everyone else and for hygenic purposes. God wanted to look after them. Jews and Christians are monogamic because that is the way God planned it to be.

To ensure that the people follow this set of rules they simply invented a trancendental side where fear and ethernal punishment were what kept people from braking the rules...

the same applies to christianism and Islamism, they both have these type of everyday life rules inprinted on them...

Disobediance to the laws does not mean eternal punishment for Christians. Everyone breaks these rules. The only thing required to avoid eternal punishment is to accept Jesus as your saviour and believe he died for your sins. God wants us to obey his laws, but we are forgiven when we fail if we are truly sorry.

I agree that back on those days it was neccessary to come up with a solution like this , but today we don´t need more fear, we don´t need to continue to live in fear.

fred

With Jesus there is nothing to fear.

Originally posted by babloyi
There are all those 'stories' about how the NIV was translated with a group that involved homosexual people, thus the message of the NIV Bible is adulterated [gasp!]. There is a thread about how the new NIV book they're making is changed because of increased concentration towards the gender behind the words. Why would people put inaccurate books in the Bible? Who knows? People judge things according to the general ideas of what is good or bad in their generation. One of the choices (or perhaps both) of which books go in the Bible are obviously wrong. They can't both be right. So someone has put inaccurate books into the Bible

Never heard that one, probably gossip.

When i say inaccurate i mean not written by eyewitnesses. Which books are inaccurate? If there was an inaccurate book we would see that it contradicted other books.

You're whole argument is based off the idea that the Bible is fact, but how can you be so sure if you say that messing around with the Bible is possible? What if someone a few hundred years ago did that?

Because there would be contradictions. God would not allow his word to be altered.

The Bible gives plenty of geographical and historical facts you would agree with. Why would it be different for the rest?

Originally posted by LancerJ1
So you would prefer to go to Hell then Heaven?

Once again, if what you say is true, then Jesus already went through hell for you. Wouldn't you do the same, even if it is just to relieve a little of his pain? You do not love Jesus?

We cant go to Hell for Jesus because Jesus wouldn't go to Hell anyway. I do love Jesus.

Have you read all of the New Testament?

Originally posted by sanse_nz
I believe in God/Good - in my opinion it is impossible to deny *something* exists out there but that is a personal thing for each individual. Religion itself has been masterminded and railroaded by various hierarchy groups over the years and that includes the Bible - there is too much hypocrisy in religious teachings to think otherwise imo.

Christianity certainly doesnt have a clean slate. Some terrible things were done in the crusades. There is hypocrisy and false teaching, that is why it is important for one to read the Bible, especially the New Testament for themselves so they know if what they hear follows what the bible says.

To say "I am one with God" is true - of all of us. We are all matter/energy coming from one source. That is my belief. I can sit here right now and say "I am one with God" - just as Jesus did. But saying those words does not make him or anyone anything other than a human being. That Jeffs guy says he's in direct contact with God and is his Prophet - should be write a bible and/or idolise him too?
I think not. Although Jeff's followers would probably die for him - just as Jesus's followers would have/did.

Anyone who has read the New Testament would know that it says beware of false teachers. If he cannot prove himself then why would anyone bother with him. Prophets in the Bible were able to prove themselves as their prophicies were correct.

All you can do is trust the texts in the new testament are un-tampered with. Espcially seeing as how 1 man was given the job to choose which books went into the new testament. There were over 30 popular texts at the time,but for some reason he chose to pick only 4,"because there are 4 points on a compass".Therefore these 4 texts are the new testament.

The church back then would put inaccurate and tampered text in the bible if it fufilled their agenda. Just like they hunted down and all but silenced the gnostics,because they chose to worship privately in their own homes instead of going to the church. The church saw them as a threat....and no gnostic text in the bible.

We all saw the ruckus the newly re-discovered gospel of judas made when it was debuted.