Originally posted by Ersatz
I think we both know that you did not give a proper answer, people become saints???

Oh, I gave you a proper answer alright. It just wasn't the answer you wanted.

There are plenty of saints. One of the most recent saints was Mother Theresa.

Jesus was right....some people don't want to accept the truth because they prefer darkness.

Originally posted by Crakeur
simply because many people wrote about something doesn't necessarily mean it existed.


Using that logic would mean that Atlantis existed too.

I'm not saying it did, or jesus did for that matter, or did not exist. On the contrary, I'm simply saying there's absolutely no proof that he did.

In 2000 years, when people are uncovering the remnants of what was once a great civilization known as the United State of America, and they come across all these articles and books written about this man who could fly thru the skies and who could stop bullets and who wore a big S on his chest, will they automatically assume it was true becuasea bunch of people wrote about it?

For all we know Jesus was simply fighting for Truth, Justice and the Pious way. He might have even been depicted wearing a giant J (or Y I guess) in theatrical re-enactments of his life.

I'm sorry but if you cannot use historical data to believe something, how the hell do you believe anything? I believe Jesus was mentioned in several texts at the time, even in the Talmud i believe. There does seems to be good historical evidence that a man named Jesus existed, but the data about what he apparently did can be seen to be biased to an extent that makes it questionable at which point it becomes a matter of belief. OF course some of the historical records mention Jesus as have brothers and maybe sisters too, but thats all a bit off the point, i'm just tryig to point out that there are non biblical historical records saying a man called Jesus existed at the time and place the Bible says he did.

"simply because many people wrote about something doesn't necessarily mean it existed."

Quite true, but at some point you should probably believe some things that a lot of people wrote about, calling it history, or else how on earth do you believe anything at all?

On the question of evil:

God created everything, including free will. With this free will we can choose to be good or bad. As he gave us free will, he allows this, and lets us get on with it.

Although i consider myself a christian, i do not believe god would damn people to hell just for making the choice to not believe in him and yet lead good lives. Thats ridiculous.

A god that says anybody who does not follow an exacting set of rules and believes in him goes to eternal torment when they die, is not worthy of anybodies worship. However as i have said, i do not believe god is like that, he'd prefer you believe in him but hes not sending you to oblivion simply if you don;t. I'd expand on all that further, but thats not the point of this thread...

Originally posted by SkyWay
derfred33

God cannot create a stone too big for Him to handle because anything that is created is limited by virtue of being created...but God's power is infinite. This proves that anything infinite is greater than anything created.

Hi,

So we fall in the same question again:

If God´s power is infinite He can create an infinite stone, not necessarily material, if so can He lift it? The infinite for the stone is the same as for the power of god.

I think it´s impossible to proove the existance of God, its a matter of beliefe you believe or you don´t but, proofs none of us can have...

fred

Originally posted by derfred33
Hi,

So we fall in the same question again:

If God´s power is infinite He can create an infinite stone, not necessarily material, if so can He lift it? The infinite for the stone is the same as for the power of god.

If God is creating the stone He is obviously greater than the stone for to make it means the maker is in control of it.

I think it´s impossible to proove the existance of God, its a matter of beliefe you believe or you don´t but, proofs none of us can have...
fred

fred, proving the existence of God is not impossible for God. All He has to do is manifest Himself.

Originally posted by SkyWay

Originally posted by derfred33
Hi,

So we fall in the same question again:

If God´s power is infinite He can create an infinite stone, not necessarily material, if so can He lift it? The infinite for the stone is the same as for the power of god.

If God is creating the stone He is obviously greater than the stone for to make it means the maker is in control of it.

I think it´s impossible to proove the existance of God, its a matter of beliefe you believe or you don´t but, proofs none of us can have...
fred

fred, proving the existence of God is not impossible for God. All He has to do is manifest Himself.

HEheh this is getting funny

So you´r saying that He can´t create a stone too large for him to handle... the cration would be bigger than the creator...

And that´s the point, if He is omnipotent (can do anything) then He should be abble to create anything...is this correct ?

But if he can´t create a stone/object/anything too big for him to handle, than He is not omnipotent


On the other way, if he could create a stone too big for him to handle, then he wouldn´t be omnipotent too, He couldn´t handle the stone...

You see the paradox?

Regarding Gods prooving himselfs existance, that I´m sure he can do.

And He can proove to us that He exists too, all He has to do is to manifest himself to us, the problem with that is that He could be trapped by some tricky questions like the one of the stone...in that case He would be unable to proove his existance to us.

Unless we lower our expectations a bit

fred

Originally posted by derfred33

So you´r saying that He can´t create a stone too large for him to handle... the cration would be bigger than the creator...

And that´s the point, if He is omnipotent (can do anything) then He should be abble to create anything...is this correct ?

But if he can´t create a stone/object/anything too big for him to handle, than He is not omnipotent


On the other way, if he could create a stone too big for him to handle, then he wouldn´t be omnipotent too, He couldn´t handle the stone...

You see the paradox?

Regarding Gods prooving himselfs existance, that I´m sure he can do.

And He can proove to us that He exists too, all He has to do is to manifest himself to us, the problem with that is that He could be trapped by some tricky questions like the one of the stone...in that case He would be unable to proove his existance to us.

Unless we lower our expectations a bit

fred

God is infinite therefore anything that is created is inferior in scale because aything created has limits that define it. So, nothing can be too great for God because He is the only thing that is unlimited.s

It is impossible to create what you suggest because it would require creating something which is more than infinite which is absurd. It is the only way that people can establish artificial limits to God....by requiring the absurd. It's like suggesting that if God cannot create another God greater than Himself He is not omnipotent.
In brief, God can do everything that is not absurd. He is the God of the real...not the absurd.


[edit on 10-9-2006 by SkyWay]

Originally posted by derfred33
Hi,

to be honest I really don´t know what to believe about God. So I´ll pass the question...

You will never find proofs that God exists, because to proove as we understand it is to follow the scientific method...who would you replicate a miracle in a lab?

Logic doesn´t apply here too, for every logical conclusion you reach, someone could allways give you the exact opposite reasoning ...

G'day

Not making a decision is the same as deciding not to believe.

You want proof, havent you read my first post? If proof is only determined by replication in a lab then we cant prove anything that has happened in our history.

Surely you guys have thought at least a little that what i have given you is a bit of evidence. If what i have given you isnt good enough what is going to be enough?

Can you guys tell me at least that you accept that a man named Jesus existed? Even Muslims accept this.

Originally posted by Vector J
I'm sorry but if you cannot use historical data to believe something, how the hell do you believe anything? I believe Jesus was mentioned in several texts at the time, even in the Talmud i believe. There does seems to be good historical evidence that a man named Jesus existed, but the data about what he apparently did can be seen to be biased to an extent that makes it questionable at which point it becomes a matter of belief. OF course some of the historical records mention Jesus as have brothers and maybe sisters too, but thats all a bit off the point, i'm just tryig to point out that there are non biblical historical records saying a man called Jesus existed at the time and place the Bible says he did.

Excellent. Thankyou so much Can you please explain about the data which is biased?

On the question of evil:

God created everything, including free will. With this free will we can choose to be good or bad. As he gave us free will, he allows this, and lets us get on with it.

Yep. God created the possibility of evil.

Although i consider myself a christian, i do not believe god would damn people to hell just for making the choice to not believe in him and yet lead good lives. Thats ridiculous.

A god that says anybody who does not follow an exacting set of rules and believes in him goes to eternal torment when they die, is not worthy of anybodies worship. However as i have said, i do not believe god is like that, he'd prefer you believe in him but hes not sending you to oblivion simply if you don't. I'd expand on all that further, but thats not the point of this thread...

A perfect God must be perfectly just. If he didnt punish sinners he wouldn't be perfect. The major bummer of going to Hell is separation from God, which we have know idea how that feels, but it must be very awful. But people who dont want to believe are saying "i dont want God" and that's exactly what they get, separation from God. Hell really sucks yes, and God really doesn't want you to go there. He will keep on trying through your whole life to bring you to him, and give you opportunities to learn more about him, such as through this thread here.

God is merciful, and will judge you according to how much opportunity you had to accept him. It says in the Bible that those who had little opportunity to know him will be let of lightly.

Originally posted by derfred33
If God´s power is infinite He can create an infinite stone, not necessarily material, if so can He lift it? The infinite for the stone is the same as for the power of god.

I think it´s impossible to proove the existance of God, its a matter of beliefe you believe or you don´t but, proofs none of us can have...

fred

Maybe the answers to your questions is beyond the human mind.

How can you not accept that even a bit of what i have given you is proof?

Lancer you didnt comment my post earlier so i will ask you directly HOW STUPID ARE YOU?
How can you consider that for evidence?How can you take what some book says is truth the book that was written by man.

The book(biblie) that until recently said universe has 7 planets how the hell did he get it wrong when he made them?

I just cant comprihand how can you take 1 book as all the evidence you need like that is total and absolute proof.
And where is your god why is he hideing from us whats the point he testing us AGAIN or is he affraid of us?

AND if your god is allmighty answer me this:
If he is almighty and imortal can he commit suicide?

lets say he had enough and wants to blow his head off dont give me in christianity that is a sin answer my question!

Couse let me tell you how all your stupid children stories fall to nothing just with this:couse if he can commit suicide he is not imortal and if he cant he is not allmighty.

And please stop to think how stupid you sound you sound like 11th century mentality we live in the 21.

like the pope says dont racionalise god!!!
Of course not couse nothing will make sense no more you will see trough their lies so what are they saying and I see you doing is dont use your brain just belive have faith OMG.!!

And what kind of psihopatic god is that that make us all suffer and wants us to love him ? For me that is a sadist and will not get my respects.
And why does he threaten you with eternal fires and other bull.... if you dont belive he gave you free will didnt he and if he wants us to belive so much why doesnt he show him self?

I know you will find another reason to keep on beliving you people allways do couse you just too scared too use your own brains!

[edit on 11-9-2006 by Pretorian03]

Originally posted by Pretorian03
Lancer you didnt comment my post earlier so i will ask you directly HOW STUPID ARE YOU?

I just cant comprihand how can you take 1 book as all the evidence you need like that is total and absolute proof.
And where is your god why is he hideing from us whats the point he testing us AGAIN or is he affraid of us?

Im just as stupid as any human.

I dont know what your going on about. I gave plenty of other evidence before i started talking about the bible. If God showed himself to us we would die from his glory.

AND if your god is allmighty answer me this:
If he is almighty and imortal can he commit suicide?

lets say he had enough and wants to blow his head off dont give me in christianity that is a sin answer my question!

Couse let me tell you how all your stupid children stories fall to nothing just with this:couse if he can commit suicide he is not imortal and if he cant he is not allmighty.

I dont know. He would never think about it. You are looking for an answer within the confines of human understanding.

like the pope says dont racionalise god!!!
Of course not couse nothing will make sense no more you will see trough their lies so what are they saying and I see you doing is dont use your brain just belive have faith OMG.!!

Sorry, i dont really understand what your saying here. Who's 'their'?

And what kind of psihopatic god is that that make us all suffer and wants us to love him ? For me that is a sadist and will not get my respects.
And why does he threaten you with eternal fires and other bull.... if you dont belive he gave you free will didnt he and if he wants us to belive so much why doesnt he show him self?

God doesn't make us suffer. We cause suffering to each other. With the fall of Man, all of creation also fell. That's why there is suffering from diseases and illness. It is the result of sin entering the world.

To not love the God who created you and everything there is and sacrificed his son to save you from eternal punishment, is rather silly. God is not threatening us with Hell. Hell is necessary for the punishment of sins. As i said before a perfect God must have perfect justice which means all sins no matter how big or small must be dealt with.

As i mentioned before we would die in God's presence.

I know you will find another reason to keep on beliving you people allways do couse you just too scared too use your own brains!

If you seriously used your brain logically you would see logic in my original post. I think it is you who is too scared to accept there is a God watching you and knowing every thought. You do not want to surrender yourself to God's plan because it means no longer being self centered and pleasing your own desires but others.

Have you read the New Testament for yourself? Really, no one against Christianity should be saying anything in this thread if they havent read it, but then i know i wouldnt get many replies.

Originally posted by 2stepsfromtop

Originally posted by SkyWay
Evil is the result of freewill.

Evil was not created by another supreme being because there cannot be two supreme beings.

So much for Satan then. Off with ye foul illusion of mind altering christian Philosophers. Scat!

SkyWay is right, Satan is not supreme. He is under God's power. God created Satan. Satans powers are limited.

Originally posted by LancerJ1

I dont know what your going on about. I gave plenty of other evidence before i started talking about the bible. If God showed himself to us we would die from his glory.

AND if your god is allmighty answer me this:
If he is almighty and imortal can he commit suicide?

lets say he had enough and wants to blow his head off dont give me in christianity that is a sin answer my question!

Couse let me tell you how all your stupid children stories fall to nothing just with this:couse if he can commit suicide he is not imortal and if he cant he is not allmighty.

I dont know. He would never think about it. You are looking for an answer within the confines of human understanding.

To start with there is NO evidence for or against a god, you believing in one makes no difference. And would you like to inform me and all the good people why we would die if we seen your imaginary god LOL.

How do YOU know that 'god' wouldn't contemplate suicide. If we were made in your gods image then would it be unreasonable to assume he thought a bit like us to? As doesn't he display human emotions???


G

Originally posted by SkyWay
God is infinite therefore anything that is created is inferior in scale because aything created has limits that define it. So, nothing can be too great for God because He is the only thing that is unlimited.s

It is impossible to create what you suggest because it would require creating something which is more than infinite which is absurd. It is the only way that people can establish artificial limits to God....by requiring the absurd. It's like suggesting that if God cannot create another God greater than Himself He is not omnipotent.
In brief, God can do everything that is not absurd. He is the God of the real...not the absurd.

So creating the universe and everything in it in 6 days is not absurd. Creating man from dust is not absurd? Talking snakes, talking bushes and not to mention pillars of fire and parting of a sea are all to be taken without absurdity. Get a grip

Originally posted by LancerJ1

I dont know what your going on about. I gave plenty of other evidence before i started talking about the bible. If God showed himself to us we would die from his glory.

AND if your god is allmighty answer me this:
If he is almighty and imortal can he commit suicide?

lets say he had enough and wants to blow his head off dont give me in christianity that is a sin answer my question!

Couse let me tell you how all your stupid children stories fall to nothing just with this:couse if he can commit suicide he is not imortal and if he cant he is not allmighty.

I dont know. He would never think about it. You are looking for an answer within the confines of human understanding.

To start with there is NO evidence for or against a god, you believing in one makes no difference. And would you like to inform me and all the good people why we would die if we seen your imaginary god LOL.

How do YOU know that 'god' wouldn't contemplate suicide. If we were made in your gods image then would it be unreasonable to assume he thought a bit like us to? As doesn't he display human emotions???


G

By far the greatest paradox for me is

DIVINE INSANITY :

God killed himself on the cross to save his own creation from his own wrath!

Die from his glory OMG HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA
die from his glory HAHAHAHAAHAHAHA

Ok lancer did you ever stop to think that is an excuse for church leaders when some1 asks a question like that.
I see you dont use your brain much but when a church L. says that to you dont go "oooo ok" but ask him"wait isnt he allmighty he can change that cant he?"

"God doesnt make us suffer"but does he stop the suffering if he loves us that much and he is here? NO!

There is so much open lies in religions and contradictories but still people keep on beliving instead of saying wait a minute no they act as church portraits them in churches and that is SHEEP!

People say they found happines in faith! It would be nice if it was truth but the truth is it is a lie and you cant be happy by lieing to your self couse sub-consiusly every1 knows it is a lie.

Thats why we have so many attrocites happening in the name of religions trough centurys,couse peoples feelings and reality gets hurth when they realize there is no god and some go starting using brains others go to extremes!

People want to belive,I say" Yes it would be very nice if there was god and there was justice for all but the reality is absolutly different and i choose not to lie to my self!

Like one man i know said"People that turn to god are just pathetic,scared litlle people that are so desperate that they ask invisible,un-existible super creatures to help them instead of confronting its problems and fears"!

And answer me do you belive in Santa Claus too?


P.s. moderator please stop giveing me warnings why are you so sensitive if I in my disbelife called some1 stupid i apologise but he wont die couse of it so moderator please dont be so touchy!

[edit on 11-9-2006 by Pretorian03]

[edit on 11-9-2006 by Pretorian03]

Originally posted by LancerJ1
Then you are suggesting that when they saw Jesus risen those hundreds of people were just imagining things?

No, I'm suggesting that he never died, and thus was already alive for those hundreds of people to see. If you'll notice, it wasn't hundreds of people who witnessed his execution.

Originally posted by LancerJ1
What is easier to believe, manuscripts of eyewitness accounts or manuscripts written 1000 years later? At the council of Nicea most of the books written by eyewitnesses were included in the Bible. The ones that were not thought accurate and not written by eyewitnesses were not included.

But then who are you to believe? The council of Nicea, or later on, when they reintroduced many those books into the collective "Bible"?

Originally posted by LancerJ1
Yes. Why would people who saw Christ's resurection and believed in him write something that was not true? Nothing can be added to the Bible and nothing can be taken away.

But then where does that leave free will? If I cannot scream at the sky and insult God directly, do I have free will? If I cannot change the bible and pass around free copies of it, do I have free will? Will I get struck by a thunderbolt?

Originally posted by LancerJ1
He takes your punishment on himself. But you must believe this also.

If that is true, then I love Jesus to such an extent, that I will offer him (however small) an iota of comfort so that while he has to shoulder the burden of the entire humanity's sin, I will relieve him of mine.

To clarify my position, I already believe in God. I also believe in the existence of Jesus the Christ, but I do not believe that he did (or was required to) die for mine, or anybody else's sins. My conscience especially abhors the idea that blood is required to remove sin. I believe that while God is just, He is also merciful. Being God, He is the ultimate form of mercy. The most merciful thing you could possibly do, to the power of infinity. To obtain forgiveness for my sins, I just ask for it, while promising to do my best never to repeat that sin again.

Originally posted by shihulud
To start with there is NO evidence for or against a god, you believing in one makes no difference. And would you like to inform me and all the good people why we would die if we seen your imaginary god LOL.

I dont know all the answers but we would die in God's presence because he is pure and we are not. Sin cannot exist in God's presence, and humans are full of it.

How do YOU know that 'god' wouldn't contemplate suicide. If we were made in your gods image then would it be unreasonable to assume he thought a bit like us to? As doesn't he display human emotions???

Ok, i dont know for sure, but i do know God has no evil thoughts. You are right in saying humans have inherited God's emotions. God can feel grief, but suicide is kind of a selfish act, and selfishness is sin.

Originally posted by Ersatz

By far the greatest paradox for me is

DIVINE INSANITY :

God killed himself on the cross to save his own creation from his own wrath!

Yep, it's awsome isnt it? He loved us that much!

Originally posted by Pretorian03
Ok lancer did you ever stop to think that is an excuse for church leaders when some1 asks a question like that.
I see you dont use your brain much but when a church L. says that to you dont go "oooo ok" but ask him"wait isnt he allmighty he can change that cant he?"

You may not like this answer but really i dont know and when you look at the big picture such things do not matter. These paradoxes your trying to trap me in are interesting to think about, but the answers are beyond what we can understand, as frustrating as that is to you. If we didnt die in God's presence it would contradict the reasons i gave for why we would die in his presence.

"God doesnt make us suffer"but does he stop the suffering if he loves us that much and he is here? NO!

If God stopped people from violence, then we wouldn't have free will. God does give comfort to people suffering if they ask. God will stop the suffering at the end of the age. Often people who are suffering are more likely to accept God, then those who are well off.

And answer me do you belive in Santa Claus too?

No.

You are trying so hard to find reasons why there is no God. But instead try and find reasons why there is a God. Your mind is so bent on disbelieving even when evidence for God is before your eyes you refuse to aknowledge it. Before you have properly read what i have given you, in your mind you have already made your choice.