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Evidence for God

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posted on Oct, 22 2006 @ 02:25 AM
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Originally posted by I am Legend
How many angels were at the tomb when jesus was found to be missing, and who was there to witness this?


2 angels were witnessed by some female followers of Jesus.


How did Judas die?


He hanged himself


if jesus is messiah, why is there no peace on earth and world knowledge of the one true god, as predicted in the OT?


Because it hasn't come about yet. Before it arrives there will be pain and disasters on a large scale.


If jesus told his followers that some of them would still be alive when the last days happened, and they are now 2000 years in the dirt, does that make jesus a liar or just a really bad prophet?


He did not say that.


"Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. When Peter saw him , he asked, "Lord, what about him?" Jesus answered, "If i want him to remain alive until i return, what is that to you? You must follow me." Because of this, the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, "If i want him to remain alive until i return, what is that to you?" John 21:20-23



why do christians not follow the noahide law concerning dietary restrictions when James clearly states that that is required for a gentile to become a follower of jesus in acts?


It doesnt say it is required to become a Christian.


"It is my judgement, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood." Acts 15:19-20


It's just an opinion that James had. Anyway Christians dont want anything to do with idols and sexual immorality. Not eating the meat from strangled animals for the Jews was just a way of showing that they were different from everyone else.


when Paul saw jesus on the road to damascus, did the people with paul see jesus also, or only hear him?


He did not see him. Only heard him. He did see a bright flash around him. The other people heard a voice.




posted on Oct, 22 2006 @ 02:58 AM
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Originally posted by wantsome
Looking back on mankinds beliefs through the years its hard to belive poeple look to a 2000 year old book for higher enlightenment. 500 years ago mankind thought the earth was flat, and that he could sail off the edge of the planet if he went to far.


But the awsome thing is the bible teaches the earth is a sphere, long before anyone thought this.

"He sits enthroned above the circle of the Earth" Isaiah 40:22

(Circle also means sphere in Hebrew)

It also teaches that the Earth is in space.

"He spreads out the northern skies over empty space, he suspends the earth over nothing." Job 26:7


It teaches the stars are inumerable, while Ptolemy, declared that the number of stars to be exactly 1056.

The bible also teaches the wind has weight long before this was proved.

"To establish a weight for the wind, And apportion the waters by measure." Job 28:25


The bible has at least 50, maybe 100 scientific facts only proven by man long after it was written.



posted on Oct, 22 2006 @ 06:58 AM
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"He sits enthroned above the circle of the Earth" Isaiah 40:22


Not a scientific fact, since it doesn't furnish any supporting evidence to this very vague claim.

Ancient greeks thought the Earth was a sphere but elaborated it with mathematical and logic reasoning and observation.



posted on Oct, 22 2006 @ 01:12 PM
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Originally posted by DarkSide


"He sits enthroned above the circle of the Earth" Isaiah 40:22


Not a scientific fact, since it doesn't furnish any supporting evidence to this very vague claim.

Ancient greeks thought the Earth was a sphere but elaborated it with mathematical and logic reasoning and observation.


yeah, the greeks were awesome like that

they also got really close to calculating the exact circumfrance of the earth using a well and shadows

and they came up with all these incredibly advanced ideas because they seperated religion and science

it's the only inconsitancy with other contemporary cultures

they had no priestly class and little intrusion of religion in other affairs



posted on Oct, 22 2006 @ 03:23 PM
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@ Lancer, and thanks for the reply:

lets pretend you have to prove this in a court of law. i asked how many angels were at the tomb, who was there, etc. you answered



2 angels were witnessed by some female followers of Jesus.


ok. so which is it?

(Matthew 28:1-2) - "Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave. 2And behold, a severe earthquake had occurred, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled away the stone and sat upon it."

(Mark 16:5) - "And entering the tomb, they saw a young man sitting at the right, wearing a white robe; and they were amazed."

Two men (Luke 24:4) - "And it happened that while they were perplexed about this, behold, two men suddenly stood near them in dazzling apparel."

(John 20:1-2,12) - "Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene *came early to the tomb, while it *was still dark, and *saw the stone already taken away from the tomb. 2And so she *ran and *came to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple whom Jesus loved, and *said to them, "They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him. . 12and she *beheld two angels in white sitting, one at the head, and one at the feet, where the body of Jesus had been lying."

so we see that concerning that point, the gospels DO NOT AGREE

as for judas: i asked how he died, and you said:



He hanged himself


"And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, and went out and hanged himself." (Matt. 27:5)

"And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out." (Acts 1:18)

so, again a contradiction.

as to does he meet messianic criteria, i wont waste my time, just refer you to this:
external link

then you said this when asked about him telling some they would not pass away before the last days:



He did not say that.


then you quoted john 21. ill refer you to these:

Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. (Mark 13:30-31 NAB)

He also said to them, "Amen, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come in power." (Mark 9:1 NAB)

Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:27 NAB)


ill leave James for later, and remind you that havent even glazed the surface of bible contradiction yet. ina court of law, the only answer is:

they just couldnt get their story straight.



posted on Oct, 24 2006 @ 02:05 AM
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Originally posted by I am Legend



2 angels were witnessed by some female followers of Jesus.


ok. so which is it?

(Matthew 28:1-2) - "Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave. 2And behold, a severe earthquake had occurred, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled away the stone and sat upon it."

(Mark 16:5) - "And entering the tomb, they saw a young man sitting at the right, wearing a white robe; and they were amazed."

Two men (Luke 24:4) - "And it happened that while they were perplexed about this, behold, two men suddenly stood near them in dazzling apparel."

(John 20:1-2,12) - "Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene *came early to the tomb, while it *was still dark, and *saw the stone already taken away from the tomb. 2And so she *ran and *came to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple whom Jesus loved, and *said to them, "They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him. . 12and she *beheld two angels in white sitting, one at the head, and one at the feet, where the body of Jesus had been lying."

so we see that concerning that point, the gospels DO NOT AGREE


Just different accounts of the facts. There were a number of women that went to the tomb at different times, and sometimes one angel was visible, other times two. Also just because one account says they saw one angel, doesnt mean the other angel wasnt their, but that particular person just didnt see the other angel or just hasn't mentioned it.


as for judas: i asked how he died, and you said:



He hanged himself


"And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, and went out and hanged himself." (Matt. 27:5)

"And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out." (Acts 1:18)

so, again a contradiction.


It's possible that Matthew descibes his physical death while Acts descibes his spiritual death. Falling was a common concept used to denote "falling from God" or leaving God. The "bowels" were where the Hebrews considered mercy and kindness to reside. Therefore it could be saying Judas turned from God and lost his kindness. OR perhaps he didnt die from hanging ie. he didnt tie noose well. OR after being hanged and died, his body decayed and became bloated, the rope broke and he fell on the ground and his gut burst open.


as to does he meet messianic criteria, i wont waste my time, just refer you to this:
external link


The messianic prophecies can be fulfilled anytime between now and the world's ending. On point 'D' universal knowledge of the God of Israel is increasing greatly in the last decade as the world becomes more connected through technology.

Regarding point 2.A: a prophet is anyone who is an interpreter of the will of God, regardless of where they are or the time it is.

Point 2.B Jesus is still from the line of David. Joseph, the husband of Mary was of this line. If a man adopts a child and brings him or her up, that man will be considered the father, regardless of the true birth parents. Same with Jesus. Mary was the mother of Jesus, and Joseph was her husband therefore Jesus' dad is Joseph (in worldly terms that is) regardless that his sperm wasn't required. Jesus was born into their family.

Point 2.C Deut 13:1-4 says:


(1) "In case a prophet or a dreamer of a dream arises in your midst and does give you a sign or a portent, (2) and the sign or the portent does come true of which he spoke to you, saying, `Let us walk after other gods, whom you have not known, and let us serve them,' (3) you must not listen to the words of that prophet or to the dreamer of that dream, because Jehovah your God is testing you to know whether you are loving Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul. (4) After Jehovah your God you should walk, and him you should fear, and his commandments you should keep, and to his voice you should listen, and him you should serve, and to him you should cling."


But Jesus never said to follow other gods.


then you said this when asked about him telling some they would not pass away before the last days:



He did not say that.


then you quoted john 21. ill refer you to these:

Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. (Mark 13:30-31 NAB)

He also said to them, "Amen, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come in power." (Mark 9:1 NAB)

Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:27 NAB)


The first two passages are both from the book of Mark. The passage from Mark 9:1 Jesus said before he was crucified, the other after he was resurrected. They are regarding seperate prophecies. When Jesus said "this generation" he could be meaning the human race or Jewish race or nation because when he has used this word in other places this is what he meant by it. But in Mark 9:1 and Luke 9:27 you need take into context the verses after about Jesus' transfiguration.


"Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, brought them up on a high mountain by themselves, and was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as light. And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him." Matthew 17:1-3


It is possible that when Jesus was glorified before Peter, James and John, that this is what Jesus meant when he said some would not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.

Another idea is the spirit of a Christian never dies, only the body, so when Jesus does come again these disciples will still be alive in spirit and will be taken up to heaven and so will see the kingdom of God come into power.

Another idea is the Kingdom of God opened up when Jesus died, and his disciple were certainly alive at this time.



posted on Oct, 24 2006 @ 06:45 AM
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Originally posted by LancerJ1

Just different accounts of the facts. There were a number of women that went to the tomb at different times, and sometimes one angel was visible, other times two. Also just because one account says they saw one angel, doesnt mean the other angel wasnt their, but that particular person just didnt see the other angel or just hasn't mentioned it.

Two problems with your explanation 1) That would prove that the bible is not infallable and 2) What about the synoptic problem?





It's possible that Matthew descibes his physical death while Acts descibes his spiritual death. Falling was a common concept used to denote "falling from God" or leaving God. The "bowels" were where the Hebrews considered mercy and kindness to reside. Therefore it could be saying Judas turned from God and lost his kindness. OR perhaps he didnt die from hanging ie. he didnt tie noose well. OR after being hanged and died, his body decayed and became bloated, the rope broke and he fell on the ground and his gut burst open.

Infallibility/Inerrancy problem yet again - That would mean that the bible is NOT the word of god and if so then why believe any of it?




as to does he meet messianic criteria, i wont waste my time, just refer you to this:
external link


The messianic prophecies can be fulfilled anytime between now and the world's ending. On point 'D' universal knowledge of the God of Israel is increasing greatly in the last decade as the world becomes more connected through technology.

Regarding point 2.A: a prophet is anyone who is an interpreter of the will of God, regardless of where they are or the time it is.

Point 2.B Jesus is still from the line of David. Joseph, the husband of Mary was of this line. If a man adopts a child and brings him or her up, that man will be considered the father, regardless of the true birth parents. Same with Jesus. Mary was the mother of Jesus, and Joseph was her husband therefore Jesus' dad is Joseph (in worldly terms that is) regardless that his sperm wasn't required. Jesus was born into their family.

Point 2.C Deut 13:1-4 says:


(1) "In case a prophet or a dreamer of a dream arises in your midst and does give you a sign or a portent, (2) and the sign or the portent does come true of which he spoke to you, saying, `Let us walk after other gods, whom you have not known, and let us serve them,' (3) you must not listen to the words of that prophet or to the dreamer of that dream, because Jehovah your God is testing you to know whether you are loving Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul. (4) After Jehovah your God you should walk, and him you should fear, and his commandments you should keep, and to his voice you should listen, and him you should serve, and to him you should cling."


But Jesus never said to follow other gods.

Would you not think the Jewish people would have a better knowledge of whether jesus was the messiah than you do? If as you say he WAS the messiah then why dont the jews (from that time to this) agree? After all he was supposed to be THEIR messiah not the leader of a new christian religion.





The first two passages are both from the book of Mark. The passage from Mark 9:1 Jesus said before he was crucified, the other after he was resurrected. They are regarding seperate prophecies. When Jesus said "this generation" he could be meaning the human race or Jewish race or nation because when he has used this word in other places this is what he meant by it. But in Mark 9:1 and Luke 9:27 you need take into context the verses after about Jesus' transfiguration.

Infallibilty/Inerrancy????



G



posted on Oct, 24 2006 @ 05:57 PM
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thanks again for the reply. Shihulud basically covered my answers. and did a good job of it. basically lancer, your answers consist of "could have", "it is possible" , :possibly", etc. those words are speculative, its much easier to just go with hat it says, but i do realize that if you did that you would then be facing some very big issues.

ill just add one thing.
you refered to Deut 13:1-4 , and made the comment:



But Jesus never said to follow other gods.


but if you were to be honest, claiming that HE was God is in fact the same thing. you would grasp this easily if you just looked for how many times in the OT God says things like "beside me there is no other", "there is only ONE god", etc etc ad infinity. not to mention this:




Deut 13:5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn [you] away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.



and yes i know you will throw the idea of a trinity right back at me, but save it. there is no trinity in the OT. and do not try to use that genesis "elohim" as trinity either, becuase even if i give you that its plural (it is), plural can be 2 or 2 million. more than one, but not a specific three.

and your idea of James, Noahide law, etc is flawed because you dont know about "god fearers" who lived alongside the jews but were not bound to the law by circumcision. not to mention noahide law existed BEFORE torah, and James was in a little bit more of a position of authority than you seem to give him credit for. letters were sent saying that this was decreed by the Jerusalem Church (if you will) that these things should be adhered to so as not to trouble the gentile converts. he mentions it being written, and that means it was written in the temples. it was common knowledge then. and yet you throw it away because why?
he says circumcision is not necessary, and yet Paul wails on about circumcision endlessly in his books, as if what James said was never even said.

thats all i have for now. im no orator so what i say may just sound like a jumbled mess. if it does sorry, im sure there are many smarter people here than i who can explain it all better.

[edit on 24-10-2006 by I am Legend]

[edit on 24-10-2006 by I am Legend]

[edit on 24-10-2006 by I am Legend]



posted on Oct, 24 2006 @ 08:14 PM
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I hate to interrupt whatever one-on-one conversations are going on here, but I could not think of a more appropriate thread to place this in. I DESPERATELY need help resolving the mathematical probablilty of this "find". So far, I've come up with the number, 1 in 26,189,004,095,533,500. If a mathematician can confirm, I would like to publish this in some science journal or something. IT WOULD BE ABSOLUTE PROOF THAT THE BIBLE IS MORE THAN JUST A BOOK OF TALES.


BoUrSWHichw
dmostGORGEo
whereinSheh
yagainsTthe
lsthouhAstw
passForThem
inunTOhEras
dayevENOFtH
eforFIREgrE
ndowNfoRbeA
asignaccORD



Do you see:
HEAD OF STATE GORGE W BUSH
NINE ONE ONE
TERROR

Do you see that each "ONE" element is prefaced with "F" to make "FONE", as in, 9-1-1 on a dial pad.

This is found in the KJV, Ezekiel 23 and 24, ELS Skip 777 (a rather interesting/signifcant value in it's own right)

The matrix is a perfect square, 11 columns by 11 rows. It contains 121 letters, 34 of which are conatained within the terms.

I'm pretty sure of my math, so much so that if I had a million dollars, I would easily offer up 100 grand to anyone who reproduces this matrix in any book (other than the Christian bible) written BEFORE Bush was voted into office. In any event, I am still seeking confirmation from ANYONE skilled in Probabilty & Statistics.



posted on Oct, 24 2006 @ 09:17 PM
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Oh geez, I thought you bible coders had already been thoroughly debunked...guess not.

[edit on 24-10-2006 by Shoktek]



posted on Oct, 25 2006 @ 02:02 AM
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Originally posted by shihulud

Originally posted by LancerJ1

Just different accounts of the facts. There were a number of women that went to the tomb at different times, and sometimes one angel was visible, other times two. Also just because one account says they saw one angel, doesnt mean the other angel wasnt their, but that particular person just didnt see the other angel or just hasn't mentioned it.

Two problems with your explanation 1) That would prove that the bible is not infallable and 2) What about the synoptic problem?


1) There is no contridiction or errors here. The fact is they ALL saw angels, and they ALL saw that Jesus wasn't there. Minor differences that do not affect the story are going to be expected in any collection of eyewitness accounts. This brings no discredit on the Bible.

What is the synoptic problem?



It's possible that Matthew descibes his physical death while Acts descibes his spiritual death. Falling was a common concept used to denote "falling from God" or leaving God. The "bowels" were where the Hebrews considered mercy and kindness to reside. Therefore it could be saying Judas turned from God and lost his kindness. OR perhaps he didnt die from hanging ie. he didnt tie noose well. OR after being hanged and died, his body decayed and became bloated, the rope broke and he fell on the ground and his gut burst open.


Infallibility/Inerrancy problem yet again - That would mean that the bible is NOT the word of god and if so then why believe any of it?


No error. These are possible answers. Just because we do not completely understand it doesn't mean it is wrong.



But Jesus never said to follow other gods.


Would you not think the Jewish people would have a better knowledge of whether jesus was the messiah than you do? If as you say he WAS the messiah then why dont the jews (from that time to this) agree? After all he was supposed to be THEIR messiah not the leader of a new christian religion.


There are Jewish people who are Christian. You mean the the Jews that practice Judaism. These days information is readily accessable, so the Judaist wouldn't necessarily know more than me, but im sure he/she would know more regarding the texts they believe as they are strict about learning them. They would have more of an in depth knowledge of why they do not believe.

Why dont the Jews agree?
Many DID believe! They were the first Christians. Some Jews didn't believe because they were scared of the Jewish officials, and they would get kicked out of the synagogue.

You cannot have a God that only looks after one group of people, and holds one group above the other. That isnt a perfect God. The Jews were just God's chosen race to demonstrate his power and authority and to ultimatly spread his word.




The first two passages are both from the book of Mark. The passage from Mark 9:1 Jesus said before he was crucified, the other after he was resurrected. They are regarding seperate prophecies. When Jesus said "this generation" he could be meaning the human race or Jewish race or nation because when he has used this word in other places this is what he meant by it. But in Mark 9:1 and Luke 9:27 you need take into context the verses after about Jesus' transfiguration.


Infallibilty/Inerrancy????


No error. The answer could be one of those. It is just a lack of understanding.



posted on Oct, 25 2006 @ 02:59 AM
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Originally posted by I am Legend
thanks again for the reply. Shihulud basically covered my answers. and did a good job of it. basically lancer, your answers consist of "could have", "it is possible" , :possibly", etc. those words are speculative, its much easier to just go with hat it says, but i do realize that if you did that you would then be facing some very big issues.


That's because it really could be one of those answers. We may not be able to conclusively know which answer, but that does not imply it is wrong.


ill just add one thing.
you refered to Deut 13:1-4 , and made the comment:



But Jesus never said to follow other gods.


but if you were to be honest, claiming that HE was God is in fact the same thing. you would grasp this easily if you just looked for how many times in the OT God says things like "beside me there is no other", "there is only ONE god", etc etc ad infinity. not to mention this:

Deut 13:5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn [you] away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.


I can see why one could think this, but it says "and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) and let us worship them." (Deut:13:2 NIV). Jesus was not another God, but the same God. If you look at it the way Judaist do, then God would not be able to come to earth in the form of a man without being persecuted by them.


and your idea of James, Noahide law, etc is flawed because you dont know about "god fearers" who lived alongside the jews but were not bound to the law by circumcision. not to mention noahide law existed BEFORE torah, and James was in a little bit more of a position of authority than you seem to give him credit for. letters were sent saying that this was decreed by the Jerusalem Church (if you will) that these things should be adhered to so as not to trouble the gentile converts. he mentions it being written, and that means it was written in the temples. it was common knowledge then. and yet you throw it away because why?
he says circumcision is not necessary, and yet Paul wails on about circumcision endlessly in his books, as if what James said was never even said.


"You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things." Acts 15:29

These recommendations were to ease tension between Jewish and non-Jewish Christians. These all have to do with pagan worship which any Christian should stay away from.

"food sacrificed to idols" is obvious.

"sexual immorality"- sexual acts were performed in some pagan cults and prostitution was often part of idolatry

"from blood and meat of strangles animals"- Strangled animals have all there blood still in them. Some pagans at their sacrifices drink blood mingled with wine. It would be unhealthy anyway.

In fact these kind of follow some of the 10 commandments.



posted on Oct, 25 2006 @ 06:50 AM
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Originally posted by LancerJ1
1) There is no contridiction or errors here. The fact is they ALL saw angels, and they ALL saw that Jesus wasn't there. Minor differences that do not affect the story are going to be expected in any collection of eyewitness accounts. This brings no discredit on the Bible.

The definition of Infallibilty is:
1 : incapable of error : UNERRING
2 : not liable to mislead, deceive, or disappoint : CERTAIN
3 : incapable of error in defining doctrines touching faith or morals
Hmmm not liable to mislead, incapable of error - that doesnt apply to the bible does it?


What is the synoptic problem?
The synoptic problem is that the Gospels of Mark, Matthew and Luke all seem to have many many things in common, inferring that the three gospels were written either using the same source (Q) or two of the Gospel writers used the other to write their account. It is generally understood that the gospel of mark was the first (which I find weird as mark wasn't a disciple and Matthew was - so why should Matthew copy Mark? Unless it wasn't actually Matthew who wrote his Gospel) although there are other theories. SO if say Matthew and Luke copied Mark then maybe they embellished or detracted from the original, either way it shows that the bible is NOT infallable or inerrant.



Infallibility/Inerrancy problem yet again - That would mean that the bible is NOT the word of god and if so then why believe any of it?

No error. These are possible answers. Just because we do not completely understand it doesn't mean it is wrong.

Fair enough but what is the right answer if the 'bible tells no lies and is the complete word of god'. If the bible tells no lies then surely there would be no doubt on what happened - why have two,three different stories? If it is the complete word of god then surely an omniwhatever deity wouldnt get his facts mixed up?

Therefore either god is not 'God' or the bible is NOT the complete word of god and if this is the case why again should we believe any of it??????




The first two passages are both from the book of Mark. The passage from Mark 9:1 Jesus said before he was crucified, the other after he was resurrected. They are regarding seperate prophecies. When Jesus said "this generation" he could be meaning the human race or Jewish race or nation because when he has used this word in other places this is what he meant by it. But in Mark 9:1 and Luke 9:27 you need take into context the verses after about Jesus' transfiguration.


Infallibilty/Inerrancy????

No error. The answer could be one of those. It is just a lack of understanding.

NO, Infallibility/Inerrancy??????????


Originally posted by LancerJ1

Originally posted by I am Legend
thanks again for the reply. Shihulud basically covered my answers. and did a good job of it. basically lancer, your answers consist of "could have", "it is possible" , :possibly", etc. those words are speculative, its much easier to just go with hat it says, but i do realize that if you did that you would then be facing some very big issues.


That's because it really could be one of those answers. We may not be able to conclusively know which answer, but that does not imply it is wrong.


Taking your deduction that it does not imply it is wrong, then it could have been one of many answers, anything really! - the complete story in the bible could be a complete myth or a fabrication based on historical fact or tradition



G


DDT

posted on Oct, 25 2006 @ 11:04 PM
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[
Maybe God doesnt exist. But what if he does? This isnt the way you should look at it but i have been called to drastic measures. Are you willing to risk not believing? Are you willing to risk eternal punishment in Hell? If you are not willing to believe after reading the New Testament then there isnt anything more i can do. Ive tried to give logical reasons why God exists, and i find them very reasonable. If you do not believe after that, then it is no longer a logical problem but an intellectual one.

(P.S. If anyone who reads this and then believes it would be great to know









I have a question for you then. If God does exist and is omnipotent what could he possibly get from casting people into Hell.

Better yet, why even bother creating us if not for his own amusement.

Furthermore, if he knows ever single decision everyone in there life is going to make and every outcome of every path then whats the point for him? He already knows how it is going to turn out so what's the point. Just so he can toss some people into hell and bring others into heaven for following some rules he set up that he already knew were going to be broken. I'm referring to Adam and Eve. Seems kind of rigged to me.



posted on Oct, 26 2006 @ 04:49 AM
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Originally posted by DDT
[
Maybe God doesnt exist. But what if he does?
First you would have to define what YOU mean by God - as everyone doesn't really agree even religious denominations.

This isnt the way you should look at it but i have been called to drastic measures. Are you willing to risk not believing?
Yep

Are you willing to risk eternal punishment in Hell?
Take it you'll be a christian then? what kind out of the over 300 christian denominations are you?

If you are not willing to believe after reading the New Testament then there isnt anything more i can do.
Well you've tried and failed mate

Ive tried to give logical reasons why God exists, and i find them very reasonable.
LOL - logical, nothing about god and religion is logical

If you do not believe after that, then it is no longer a logical problem but an intellectual one.
Thats what YOU think and your entitled to your opinion but dont try an tell me what I believe is wrong when you base your's on FAITH

G



posted on Oct, 26 2006 @ 06:28 AM
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Originally posted by shihulud
The definition of Infallibilty is:
1 : incapable of error : UNERRING
2 : not liable to mislead, deceive, or disappoint : CERTAIN
3 : incapable of error in defining doctrines touching faith or morals
Hmmm not liable to mislead, incapable of error - that doesnt apply to the bible does it?


No it doesn't. There is no error. It does not deceive. The bible has no intention to mislead.



The synoptic problem is that the Gospels of Mark, Matthew and Luke all seem to have many many things in common, inferring that the three gospels were written either using the same source (Q) or two of the Gospel writers used the other to write their account. It is generally understood that the gospel of mark was the first (which I find weird as mark wasn't a disciple and Matthew was - so why should Matthew copy Mark? Unless it wasn't actually Matthew who wrote his Gospel) although there are other theories. SO if say Matthew and Luke copied Mark then maybe they embellished or detracted from the original, either way it shows that the bible is NOT infallable or inerrant.


They are so similar because they were all inspired by the same Holy Spirit. No evidence of this 'Q' has ever been found. I dont see any problem if Matthew and Luke copied some text from Mark. Or maybe Luke had access to Mark and Matthew. There cant be any emellishment and detraction from the original because there so similar as you say. These books are written by people who witnessed, or were told about the same events. It's a good thing that they all stick so closely to the same facts.





No error. These are possible answers. Just because we do not completely understand it doesn't mean it is wrong.

Fair enough but what is the right answer if the 'bible tells no lies and is the complete word of god'. If the bible tells no lies then surely there would be no doubt on what happened - why have two,three different stories? If it is the complete word of god then surely an omniwhatever deity wouldnt get his facts mixed up?


There is no doubt. We know Judas died. If the Bible had to go into detail about everything, then it would be absolutely huge and impratical.



No error. The answer could be one of those. It is just a lack of understanding.

NO, Infallibility/Inerrancy??????????


Same kind of thing as above. The Bible is the perfect size. It has everything in it that we need to know. These are insignifant details. You are trying to poke holes where there is none.



Taking your deduction that it does not imply it is wrong, then it could have been one of many answers, anything really! - the complete story in the bible could be a complete myth or a fabrication based on historical fact or tradition


No there cant. There is only a limited range of logical answers and quite likely one of the ones given.



posted on Oct, 26 2006 @ 06:36 AM
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Whoa there Shihulud. I think DDT was just trying to quote me from one of my very early posts but it hasnt worked out.



posted on Oct, 26 2006 @ 06:49 AM
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Originally posted by DDT
I have a question for you then. If God does exist and is omnipotent what could he possibly get from casting people into Hell.


Because a perfect God must have perfect justice.


Better yet, why even bother creating us if not for his own amusement.


Because he is a God of love. He created us for his pleasure and to bring glory to him. He also loves creating.


Furthermore, if he knows ever single decision everyone in there life is going to make and every outcome of every path then whats the point for him? He already knows how it is going to turn out so what's the point. Just so he can toss some people into hell and bring others into heaven for following some rules he set up that he already knew were going to be broken. I'm referring to Adam and Eve. Seems kind of rigged to me.


For God to know what events will take place, what paths we will take, and every outcome, all these things have to happen for him to have foreknowledge of them.

The fact that they do happen is how He has foreknowledge of them.

There would be no free will if God didn't allow these events and choices to take place.



posted on Oct, 26 2006 @ 07:04 AM
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LancerJ1 - You keep saying that there is no error or doubt but you cant state which of the explanations for, say the death of Judas is correct or why the synoptic gospels are the same yet totally contradict each other with different endings and content.
SO you are trying to tell me that you think that the bible is completely true, every single word and letter is divinely inspired (no extra input from the authors)? Your telling me that everything in the bible actually happened the way, or ways in some cases (see above), that is stated in the bible??



by LancerJ1
There is no doubt. We know Judas died.
Well if he was alive at that time then he will be dead just like everyone else. As you said these are POSSIBLE answers but I am saying there might be more POSSIBLE answers.

Your basing your belief on a version of a book that has been translated, who knows how many times, and that is KNOWN to contain errors (mistranslations etc - Innerancy/infallability??????). Your also basing your belief on the interpretation of one of a multitude of christian denominations, none of which actually agree on the correct interpretation i.e what are your denominations views on abortion, homosexuality, same sex marriage, assisted suicide, divorce, hell, the rapture and a pile of other moral and ethical dilemmas? The fact that you are stating that your views are correct when there are christians out there who disagree leads me to dismiss what you say as your/your denominations interpretations, which as we see can have variable outcomes depending on denomination.

Now you tell me why you dont believe in other gods and religions???? Why is your version the correct (LOL) one?



G


DDT

posted on Oct, 26 2006 @ 08:49 AM
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Because a perfect God must have perfect justice.


Why? Also, how does one define perfect justice in the presence of God.



Because he is a God of love. He created us for his PLEASURE and to bring glory to him. He also loves creating.


If he truly is a God of love how could he possibly leave everyone in Hell to rot for eternity.



The fact that they do happen is how He has foreknowledge of them.


Not sure what you are trying to say here. If he has foreknowledge of them and he allows these events and choices to take place then He knows every outcome of all choices. How is that free will.



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