Evidence for God

Since people have been saying there is no proof of God and creationism, I have decided to write this showing logically why God exists.

Out of all major world religious leaders, Jesus was the only one who actually claimed to be God, claimed he could give eternal life, claimed he could give forgiveness at a future judgment and claimed that his teaching was for every person of all ages in the world.

The existence of Jesus is a fact. Either if you believe he is the Son of God or just an ordinary human, you cannot dispute the evidence that there was a man named Jesus. There are historical documents from biblical times from respected non-Christian and anti-Christian writers and scholars that refer to Jesus and his claim he was God.

Therefore since Jesus’ claim is an undeniable fact, he was either a liar, a madman, or was God. A claim to be God is the biggest claim anyone can make. From the start Jesus taught he was sinless and offered anyone who followed him eternal life. If Jesus was lying he has deceived more people than any other in the world’s history and would be labeled the world’s biggest liar. If Jesus was lying, he died for his lies. Would you die for a lie? Historical records verify that Jesus was crucified and died, of these the Roman pro-consul Tacitus a very highly regarded historian who wrote in Latin. Wouldn’t only a madman carry a lie to the horrible death of crucifixion when he could of got out of it by simply admitting his lie? Psychiatrists and scholars from the past to present conclude from Jesus’ teaching and character his mind certainly was not unstable.

If Jesus was a madman he wouldn’t come back from the dead. But there were hundreds of people who witnessed his resurrection from the dead. If we call Jesus a liar, then you would have to call these hundreds of people liars also. Just as Jesus died for his claim, hundreds of people also were killed because they claimed to be eyewitnesses to Jesus’ resurrection. Would hundreds of people be willing to suffer torture and terrible deaths while knowing it was all a lie?

Many eyewitnesses claimed that Jesus after his resurrection ate meals with them and spoke with them. These people are either telling the truth or purposely making it up. Even some people opposing Jesus ended up believing. Saul of Tarsus (later called Paul) received great pleasure executing Christians but after an encounter with Jesus after his resurrection he too became a follower and wrote many of the books of the New Testament. Paul was beheaded because of his belief. Why would he do all this if it was a lie?

How can we trust the New Testament to be the truth?
If the bible is the inspired word of God we would expect it to be accurate. It also was mostly written by eyewitnesses. We posses such a large number of manuscripts we can be certain the original text has been preserved. Also the time span from when the manuscript was written to the age of the oldest currently available manuscript is only 25 years so there is only a very small chance of corruption in copying. The last two criteria are used by scholars to gauge the accuracy of ancient manuscripts and in comparison to other ancient works the New Testament is deemed to be exceedingly the most accurate. Over the 2000 years in which the New Testament has been around, no manuscript has ever been found with any alternative reading that contradicts the New Testament.

Archaeology has verified the New Testament to be so accurate archaeologists use it as a guide in their work and no archaeological discovery has ever refuted the Bible.

Over 2,000 prophecies in the Bible have been fulfilled.

There are unanswered questions, but the big picture is Jesus was telling the truth.

I used the book “Religion is for Fools!” by Bill Medley to help me write this.


www.probe.org...
www.christian-thinktank.com...

Hello Lancer.
Please take none of what I say as an insult or attack. I'm just curious about your position.

First you say that Jesus was God, and that he claimed he was God. I have not seen this claim anywhere. Jesus might have said (although I do not know for sure) that he was "Son of God" or that he was "One with God" but he never claimed to BE God. He always (as far as I can see) referred to God as someone else. I wouldn't say things like "Babloyi is an annoying guy" and "Babloyi makes great pizza" unless I wasn't babloyi.

Another thing, you say that Jesus was crucified, died and came back to life. Since he died for what he believed in, he must have believed in God, and therefore God exists. Aside from the fact that we cannot be sure any of this happened, as it wasn't Jesus who wrote this down, or God who wrote this down, but lots of people, who at times had conflicting stories. I'd think it much more likely that either Jesus was crucified and died, and the people who saw him afterwards were lying, or that Jesus was not crucified, and the people who saw him afterwards were not lying.

About the dying for your beliefs bit, I'm not to sure about that either. There are many examples of people who died for their beliefs. Some of them were suicidal terrorists, some of them were artists, some of them were really unhappy people. They can't all be right.

I won't go into details as you didn't seem to either, but how can we be sure about the authenticity of the new testament? Many of them were not written by eyewitnesses, the oldest copies are many years younger than when the originals are supposed to have been written, the originals were supposedly written many years after the fact.

I ought to add that it might have been possible for me to believe all of this and accept it, aside from one tiny thing that nags the logic of my conscience. I just cannot believe that anyone except myself is responsible for my sins. I would not want, and would not accept that anyone except me should die for my sins. If I did something wrong, I should he held responsible for it. I would not dare burden another soul (no matter how sinless) with what is truely and clearly mine. To paraphrase: The sins of the father do not go to the son, and the sins of the son do not go to the father

[edit on 9-9-2006 by babloyi]

Anyone who requires proof of God's existence before they will accept Him as real will never believe until they encounter Him personally. No amount of evdence will convince them. In fact, such people don't even accept the evidence. To believe doesn't require proof...it only requires reasonable amount of evidence, and there is plenty of that which is why there are so many believers.

There is no (that is none, zero, zilch) evidence that Jesus ever existed.
He was not a liar or madman or God, he just did not happen.
Jesus is a fairy tale, he is imaginary.

He was a sun god like Horus, Tammuz, Mithras. Nazareth did not exist in the 1st century AD – the area was a burial ground of rock-cut tombs.
Following a star would lead you in circles.
Jesus was only given the status of "divine" after the Council of Nicea in325 ad.

What hystorical evidence are you talking about?

Originally posted by Ersatz
There is no (that is none, zero, zilch) evidence that Jesus ever existed.
He was not a liar or madman or God, he just did not happen.
Jesus is a fairy tale, he is imaginary.

He was a sun god like Horus, Tammuz, Mithras. Nazareth did not exist in the 1st century AD – the area was a burial ground of rock-cut tombs.
Following a star would lead you in circles.
Jesus was only given the status of "divine" after the Council of Nicea in325 ad.

What hystorical evidence are you talking about?

I'm not going by evidence from the past but in the PRESENT.

Originally posted by Ersatz
There is no (that is none, zero, zilch) evidence that Jesus ever existed.
He was not a liar or madman or God, he just did not happen.
Jesus is a fairy tale, he is imaginary.

He was a sun god like Horus, Tammuz, Mithras. Nazareth did not exist in the 1st century AD – the area was a burial ground of rock-cut tombs.
Following a star would lead you in circles.
Jesus was only given the status of "divine" after the Council of Nicea in325 ad.

What hystorical evidence are you talking about?

I love arguing against myself!

There is plenty of evidence that Jesus existed, mostly in the form of writing. Sure, it may be biased, being that it's all in favour of him existing and being a really important guy, and the fact that it's collected together in a book that many people believe to be fictitious, but it's still evidence. A group of people won't spontaneously come up with an idea to create the character of Jesus, the true, successful Messiah, just for the heck of it.

People have been using stars as a method of navigation for thousands of years. Why do you think it's called the North Star?

Originally posted by babloyi
First you say that Jesus was God, and that he claimed he was God. I have not seen this claim anywhere. Jesus might have said (although I do not know for sure) that he was "Son of God" or that he was "One with God" but he never claimed to BE God. He always (as far as I can see) referred to God as someone else. I wouldn't say things like "Babloyi is an annoying guy" and "Babloyi makes great pizza" unless I wasn't babloyi.

He did claim he was God:

"And so when He had washed their feet, and taken His garments, and reclined at the table again, He said to them, "Do you know what I have done to you? You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for I am. If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet." (John 13:12-14)

During Christ's trial, the chief priests asked Him, "Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." And He said,

# "I am." (Mark 14:60-62)
# "Yes, it is as you say." (Matt. 26: 63-65)
# "You are right in saying I am." (Luke 22:67-70)

Another thing, you say that Jesus was crucified, died and came back to life. Since he died for what he believed in, he must have believed in God, and therefore God exists. Aside from the fact that we cannot be sure any of this happened, as it wasn't Jesus who wrote this down, or God who wrote this down, but lots of people, who at times had conflicting stories. I'd think it much more likely that either Jesus was crucified and died, and the people who saw him afterwards were lying, or that Jesus was not crucified, and the people who saw him afterwards were not lying.

Historical records verify Jesus was crucified. Why would hundreds of people say Jesus had risen while knowing they would be killed for it while knowing it was a lie?

About the dying for your beliefs bit, I'm not to sure about that either. There are many examples of people who died for their beliefs. Some of them were suicidal terrorists, some of them were artists, some of them were really unhappy people. They can't all be right.

But they didnt die for their belief while knowing it was a lie.

I won't go into details as you didn't seem to either, but how can we be sure about the authenticity of the new testament? Many of them were not written by eyewitnesses, the oldest copies are many years younger than when the originals are supposed to have been written, the originals were supposedly written many years after the fact.

But many were written by eyewitnesses such as the disciples and Paul. Even if the manuscipts were written a time afterward, the Holy Spirit guided the writters in what to write. The Bible is literally God's word. Every word in it is exactly how God wanted it. Even if we didn't have the New Testament, Jesus' claim would still be verified by other historical documents.

I ought to add that it might have been possible for me to believe all of this and accept it, aside from one tiny thing that nags the logic of my conscience. I just cannot believe that anyone except myself is responsible for my sins. I would not want, and would not accept that anyone except me should die for my sins. If I did something wrong, I should he held responsible for it. I would not dare burden another soul (no matter how sinless) with what is truely and clearly mine. To paraphrase: The sins of the father do not go to the son, and the sins of the son do not go to the father

Correct. You are held responsible for your own sins. Why woudn't you want Jesus to save you from eternity in Hell?

Originally posted by Ersatz
There is no (that is none, zero, zilch) evidence that Jesus ever existed.
He was not a liar or madman or God, he just did not happen.
Jesus is a fairy tale, he is imaginary.

He was a sun god like Horus, Tammuz, Mithras. Nazareth did not exist in the 1st century AD – the area was a burial ground of rock-cut tombs.
Following a star would lead you in circles.
Jesus was only given the status of "divine" after the Council of Nicea in325 ad.

What hystorical evidence are you talking about?

The 2 hyperlinks i gave gives some info on historical sources.

The pagan God's and others from various mythologies are gods of certain things like the sun and moon. But the Christian god is the God that created the sun and the moon. He is the God of ALL.

At the Council of Nicea, the books that were thought accurate were put in such as those written by eyewitnesses.

Hello Lancer,

First let me to say thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts and beliefs. That said allow me to address a one of your assertions from my own perspective.

Lancer J1 wrote:

Out of all major world religious leaders, Jesus was the only one who actually claimed to be God, claimed he could give eternal life, claimed he could give forgiveness at a future judgment and claimed that his teaching was for every person of all ages in the world.

I would have to agree with others in that, Jesus never claimed to be God, but made an unintentionally misleading verbal differentiation in which he referred to himself as being, unified with the Father, "... I and my Father are one."

This particular verse says to me, that the Christ was knowledgeable with regard to the mechanism of the Father and new his purpose and was in agreement with it.

For instance if we look to the preceeding verse, we find, "...My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.'

This verse makes the claim that humanity is regarded as a possession separated only by depth of understanding. It also says the Father is omnipotent and no man is able to pluck those who have a more intimate understanding of the Christ from the Father's hand.

To restate: What this means to me is that God has given birth to all of humanity through the mechanism of nature [humanity is a possession of the Earth]. As the Father, systemically, is the source of nature [is greater than all] he is also responsible, through this processes, for providing individuals with the faculty of higher mind [my Father, which gave me them]. These, intellectually heightened, individuals can perceive the truth in the message of Christ more thoroughly than others and resultantly, cannot be removed from this deeper perception [No man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand].

We may be able to say that those who percieve and understand the message of the Christ in this way are also, "...One with the Father." as they are referred to as residing in the Father's hand having become unified in intent and purpose through the gnosis of God.


Kindest regards.

Originally posted by babloyi

I love arguing against myself!

There is plenty of evidence that Jesus existed, mostly in the form of writing. Sure, it may be biased, being that it's all in favour of him existing and being a really important guy, and the fact that it's collected together in a book that many people believe to be fictitious, but it's still evidence. A group of people won't spontaneously come up with an idea to create the character of Jesus, the true, successful Messiah, just for the heck of it.

People have been using stars as a method of navigation for thousands of years. Why do you think it's called the North Star?

I also love talking to myself, it's the only way of having an intelligent conversation...

With regards to evidence, have a look at this site

www.jesusneverexisted.com...

Did you know that the North Star is also called "The Nail of the Heavens" and from ancient times people (pre Christian) used to come to England when it was called Albina in the hope to see the Northern Lights or Aurora Borealis because they believed it was a communication from the Gods?

Lancer, I never said that Jesus wasn't Son of God. See, the problem is that the title "Son of God" is given to a lot of people(s) in the Bible, not just Jesus.

You mention the whole "Why would millions of people die for it if they knew it was a lie" thing, but you answered it yourself. Perhaps they did not know it was a lie.

I'm not sure about your claim that the current Bible is guided by the Holy Spirit and is literally God's Word. I mean, lets go through it chronologically:

*Stuff Happened
*People Saw it Happening
*People talked about the stuff they saw happening
*Other people wrote down what those people said
*Some people started the seeing stuff much later
*A few hundred years later, a group of people decided which accounts of what happened should be collected together to form "The Bible"
*More than a 1000 years later a few other people had the courage to disagree, and added more accounts of what happened
*The stuff got continuously translated until it was in a form we understand today

Are you telling me that EVERY SINGLE STEP there was guided by the Holy Spirit, and that every single word in every single language is exactly the way God wants us to understand the Bible? What if there were a few nasty people in between, who didn't copy things exactly the way they were? If someone today saw a vision which transformed them into becoming Christian, and the Holy Spirit inspired them to write down the "Good News", which added a few more things than what is currently in the Bible (to make it understandable today) would that be accepted?

How exactly would Jesus save me from eternity in hell?

Originally posted by babloyi
There is plenty of evidence that Jesus existed, mostly in the form of writing. Sure, it may be biased, being that it's all in favour of him existing and being a really important guy, and the fact that it's collected together in a book that many people believe to be fictitious, but it's still evidence.

there is plenty of evidence that reptilian shape shifters exist, mostly in the form of writing. Sure, it may be biased, being that is is all in favour of them existing and being a really threatening race of aliens, and the fact that it is all collected throughout the internet, which many believe to be fictitious, but it's still evidence.


so, using that same logic, have we proven Jesus' existence AND alien reptile shapshifters?


There is no proof that the stories in the bible are true. There is no proof that a man named Joshua (jesus for the non-jews) who thought he was the son of god ever existed. The bible cannot be used as proof.

The bible might as well have been written by the million little pieces dude. At least, with his story, there was a way to corroborate some of his tale.

Crakeur, what I was trying to say is that the fact that lots of people (individually) wrote books about Jesus, which MUCH MUCH later got combined into what is now known as the New Testament, gives some credence to the existence of the man. I didn't say that what was written in the Bible was true. Lots of different people wrote great things about the Lighthouse of Alexandria, and although it certainly isn't there today, most archaeologists agree that it once existed. Just because nobody wrote BAD things about it (and so all the reports were 'biased') doesn't mean that a great lighthouse once existed in that area.

Another example: Julius Caeser did a lot of incredible things. Unfortunately, most of those things we only know from his own writings. Although he doesn't only mention the good stuff that happened (which tells us that perhaps it is somewhat unbiased), we can't be sure about everything he said. The general gist of it, though, is accepted as truth.

[edit on 9-9-2006 by babloyi]

simply because many people wrote about something doesn't necessarily mean it existed.


Using that logic would mean that Atlantis existed too.

I'm not saying it did, or jesus did for that matter, or did not exist. On the contrary, I'm simply saying there's absolutely no proof that he did.

In 2000 years, when people are uncovering the remnants of what was once a great civilization known as the United State of America, and they come across all these articles and books written about this man who could fly thru the skies and who could stop bullets and who wore a big S on his chest, will they automatically assume it was true becuasea bunch of people wrote about it?

For all we know Jesus was simply fighting for Truth, Justice and the Pious way. He might have even been depicted wearing a giant J (or Y I guess) in theatrical re-enactments of his life.

Here we go again! Evidence for God is in the mind of the beholder.
I am a Pagan. I see no evidence of God anywhere nor ever have.
Look around you. Mother earth is a wonderful place and is the result of evolutionary forces that we can never truely comprehend. Humanity in all its cultures try to piece together an explaination for the mechanisms of early evolution and,at this early stage of human knowledge, they have no solid sciences to piece together the jigsaw of all that exists within their comprehension.
(Drum Roll....) enter Gods, dieties and a mumbo jumbo of incomprehendable mystical entities. Give it time and mythology rises to fill in the void of reason.
Build on this and form organised religions all with dubious doctrines and thier relevent leaders. Mind control is now in place for the weak minded and ignorant.
Write a collection of ficticious stories to bond the gullable into a club and pepper the system with unsubstantiated promises of eternal life for the faithfull and for those members who stray from the faith a punishment of eternal damnation.
Christianity is born, God is boss, Satan is a BAD, BAD person. "Here endeth my lesson"!

This is the second time I have posted the follwing message because I think that the posts that have followed since it was originally posted at 7:30 this morning prove it to be accurate:

Anyone who requires proof of God's existence before they will accept Him as real will never believe until they encounter Him personally. No amount of evdence will convince them. In fact, such people don't even accept the evidence. To believe doesn't require proof...it only requires reasonable amount of evidence, and there is plenty of that which is why there are so many believers.

Twice a week, every week I ask God to grant me the Lottery Jackpot,

God has not delivered,

Therefore God does not exist.

Proof.

Originally posted by SkyWay
This is the second time I have posted the follwing message because I think that the posts that have followed since it was originally posted at 7:30 this morning prove it to be accurate:

Anyone who requires proof of God's existence before they will accept Him as real will never believe until they encounter Him personally. No amount of evdence will convince them. In fact, such people don't even accept the evidence. To believe doesn't require proof...it only requires reasonable amount of evidence, and there is plenty of that which is why there are so many believers.

To say that you are a God, to say you have risen from the dead, to perform miracles are awsome claims and in my opinion extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence.

Give one or two bits of evidence in your own words without pointing to a biased website.

Originally posted by 2stepsfromtop
Twice a week, every week I ask God to grant me the Lottery Jackpot,

God has not delivered,

Therefore God does not exist.

Proof.

Get in line! First God has to deliver to all those people who ask 7 times a week!

Thanks heaps guys for your responses

I wonder how many people discredit the New Testament without reading it for themselves. Just as you shouldn't judge any book without reading it for yourself the same goes for the New Testament. It is only the size of a large novel, so please read it if you have not done so.

Some of you guys are still asking for evidence, but i gave it in my original post. I dont have all the answers to your questions, but there is evidence if your willing to look for it and accept it.

I don't understanded why some of you don't want to believe in God? I think people like the part of God which is warm and friendly but dont want to accept the justice part of God because it means punishment and restriction and dont want to give up their lives for God. But a perfect God must be perfectly just.

Maybe God doesnt exist. But what if he does? This isnt the way you should look at it but i have been called to drastic measures. Are you willing to risk not believing? Are you willing to risk eternal punishment in Hell? If you are not willing to believe after reading the New Testament then there isnt anything more i can do. Ive tried to give logical reasons why God exists, and i find them very reasonable. If you do not believe after that, then it is no longer a logical problem but an intellectual one.

(P.S. If anyone who reads this and then believes it would be great to know