Ahmadinejad never said Israel should be wiped off the map

Wikipedia's Translation of phrase "wiped off the map"

Many news sources have presented one of Ahmadinejad's phrases in Persian as a statement that "Israel must be wiped off the map", an English idiom which means to cause a place to stop existing.

The Imam said that this regime occupying Jerusalem (een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods) must [vanish from] the page of time (bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad).

"He did say he hoped its regime, i.e., a Jewish-Zionist state occupying Jerusalem, would collapse."

The Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI) translates the phrase similarly:

This regime that is occupying Qods [Jerusalem] must be eliminated from the pages of history.

He is talking about the regime. We do not recognise legally this regime," he said.

The bottom line (as I see it) is that there is no such colloquialism in Persian. Further, in english speaking countries we take the phrase "wiped off the map" generally to mean bombarded and annihilated militarily. The very (mis)reporting of his alleged call for Israel to be militarily annihilated was sensational media retoric to rally anti Iranian feelings amongst westerners.

As I understand Ahmadinejad, in his world there is no such nation as Israel because it was founded illegally in 1948; the land stolen from the persian people.

Personally I couldn't agree more. If someone were to tell everyone in Mississippi that we need to give the people of Darfur a new home and Mississippi is it... I could see the American populous considering such a decreee illegal.

Thats pretty much how Ahmadinejad feels about Israel... 50 odd years have past or not... the land should not be under control of the Zionists.

And that brings us to zionist... just what is a zionist? Is a zionist a Jew?

Jews against Zionism

Read through that one for a little while...

A zionist is one who believes that the small strip of land which American textbooks call Israel is the "holy land" and it belongs to those who follow the Jewish faith.

Hate to break it to you... but that's a lie.

The Holy Land - Israel - Zion is a mindset, a recognition of sacred nature of what God has given us here on earth. It is no singular place on a map... it is the whole. The garden.

So... in short... A "zionist" looking to put borders around the "holy land" has no conception of what Zion even is.

For those of you still in disbelief... fearing that evil Ahmadinejad is out to nuke Israel I suggest you peruse these two letters:

Full Text of Pres. Ahmadinejad's Letter to German Chancellor

Ahmadinejad's Letter to Bush

And then visit his website... and read a few more of his speeches:

Website of the President of Iran

Ahmadinejad, may peace be upon you. I'd take you as my President over Mr. Bushy any day.

Sri Oracle

PS... if you do not take the time to read his letters to Bush and Merkel... and visit the "true torah jews" site, don't bother posting... I'm not interested in hearing from those that fail to deny ignorance.

Jah (Allah) Love, Rasta

One


mod edit to use external quote code, please review this link

[edit on 8-9-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]

Originally posted by Sri Oracle

As I understand Ahmadinejad, in his world there is no such nation as Israel because it was founded illegally in 1948; the land stolen from the persian people.

Huh? since when are Palestinian Arabs Persian? Any way you look at it, he wants to erradicate the Jewish State of Israel from it's current location in the Middle East.

Originally posted by Sri Oracle

As I understand Ahmadinejad, in his world there is no such nation as Israel because it was founded illegally in 1948; the land stolen from the persian [sic] people.

Personally I couldn't agree more. If someone were to tell everyone in Mississippi that we need to give the people of Darfur a new home and Mississippi is it... I could see the American populous considering such a decreee illegal.

Israel was founded via official recognition by the U.N. following Great Britian's abdication of Palestine's administration between World War I and World War II. No nation called "Palestine" (the land portion west of the River Jordan) ever existed.

The land wasn't "stolen" from anyone. "Palestinian" semites still live there, as do Jewish semites. To Ahmadinejad and his ilk, the issue with Israel is not about genetics, but about religion.

The "Jewish homeland" was created out of the larger province of Palestine, which comprised present day Israel, Gaza, the West Bank and all of Jordan. The partition along religious lines was deemed neccessary because of Arab states' tendencies to criminalize non-muslims for simply exercizing their faith.

To your mind, Sri Oracle, what would constitute a "legal founding" of Israel?

Your Mississippi/Darfur analogy is silly. The people of Darfur were not born in Mississippi, nor do they have any historic cultural ties there.

The Holy Land - Israel - Zion is a mindset, a recognition of sacred nature of what God has given us here on earth. It is no singular place on a map... it is the whole. The garden.

So... in short... A "zionist" looking to put borders around the "holy land" has no conception of what Zion even is.

Does an "Islamist" looking to put borders around the "holy land" have no conception of what Islam is? Is the systemic religious persecution that prevails in Islamic countries preferable to the religious liberty that is found in "the Jewish state"? When Jews are oppressed and/or slaughtered in other parts of the globe, should they simply lay down and die? Or, should they be able to have a place to call home; the place when they were made by the earth originally, predating Islam by nearly 5,000 years?

The existence of Israel isn't merely about a Jewish homeland in ancient lands, it's about survival.

Ahmadinejad, may peace be upon you. I'd take you as my President over Mr. Bushy any day.

Then you either a tyrant or a fool. Perhaps you're a muslim male who believes in the subjugation of women, the banning of western knowledge, the prosecution of "heretical" thought and the destruction of the protections of individual rights as proscribed by our Constitution. Or, maybe you're a masochist. I dunno.

So, until the day comes when middle eastern governments renounce their repressive theocracies, I just gotta say: long live Israel.

[edit on 8-9-2006 by Tuning Spork]

Ok... we'll call them Palestinian Arabs.

Regardless... Stolen from the people that were already there... by... "Jewish Nationalists" aka Zionists... Definately not Jews; those interested in serving the Lord... quite different as a group from those interested in dividing up palestine with political boundaries.

And yes... He does want to erradicate "The Jewish State of Israel" from the minds of all involved... because back in 1947:

The Palestinian Arabs and the surrounding Arab states rejected the UN plan and regarded the General Assembly vote as an international betrayal. Some argued that the UN plan allotted too much territory to the Jews. Most Arabs regarded the proposed Jewish state as a settler colony and argued that it was only because the British had permitted extensive Zionist settlement in Palestine against the wishes of the Arab majority that the question of Jewish statehood was on the international agenda at all.

And nothing has changed since.

Middle East Research and Information Project

It is all a global scam to put a NWO military base in Persia. I suppose this is where OIL comes in.


Now of course, JEWS are welcome in palestine... However, militant Jewish Nationalists (Zionists) ARE NOT. Pretty simple actually.

You're welcome to pray here, you're welcome to be here, you're welcome to live here, raise children here and grow food here...

But you're not welcome to draw a line in the sand and say... this is mine, cross the line and I'll shoot. Oh and this is our leader... and well even though you were here first... you don't get to vote for him.

At that point we refer to:

If indeed the Holocaust is a fact of history, why was Israel established in the East and in Palestinian lands when Jews were killed in Europe? If the Holocaust indeed happened, then those who committed the crime should compensate for it, the Iranian president suggested.
Referring to the expulsion of Jews from Europe as a reason behind the establishment of Israel by the Westerners, he said: "They (Westerners), particularly the British, with their anti-Jewish attitude forced groups of Jews to migrate."
"Houses of defenseless people in Palestine are destroyed and thousands of oppressed people are killed. Millions of people become homeless and some people are assassinated. But none of these bothers the West," the Iranian president pointed out.
When elections were held in the Palestinian territories and the people overwhelmingly elected leaders of their choice, western liberalism refused to recognize it and ordered the newly elected officials to recognize the old regime, the president complained. "We proposed a transparent solution, that is, that if the West is committed to democratic principles Palestinian decisions should be respected. We asked them to let all Palestinians -- Muslims, Christians and Jews -- elect a popular government through a referendum." -Ahmadinejad

Sri Oracle

Your knowledge of history needs a little work. Well, a lot of work.

I do not care for Bush either, but what does Bush have to do with a statement made by an Iranian leader about Israel? Is this just another Bush bashing thread or an argument in favor of religious oppression and supporting terrorism?

I'm curious. You say you would like Ahmadinejad to be your leader. Ahmadinejad is the de facto leader of Hezbollah who routinely straps bombs to children to blow up innocent civilians including children. For years they have lobbed missiles blindly into Israel to kill anyone they could. All this is now being done with his blessings under his rule. That means you approve of all of this, does it not? This mindless killing in the name of Allah? If this is true why don't you come out of the closet and engage in an honest debate? Are you scared or ashamed?

Blaine,

Scared or ashamed...

Both.

My president (Bush) is the "de facto leader" of the Coalition in Iraq that is now responsible for 40,000 civilian deaths in 3 years time. All this with blessings under his administration's rule.

That, my SUV loving friend, is what I call state sponsored terrorism. And that is why, one day, I may be confronted by a child with a bomb strapped to his chest. Further, that is why that war-orphaned child has a one way ticket to visit Allah.

For this evening I am going to have to let this conversation die. Its past midnight east coast time and I have to work in the morning. Gotta pay taxes so my big brother can build more smart bombs to intimidate the Middle East. I promise to return though.

No one is innocent any longer. Lest they allow themselves to be and instrument in His Hands.

Hezbollah is no more than a reflection in the pond.

Meditate on that,

Sri Oracle

I think people are forgetting that it originally belongs to the jews before it was taken from them.

Originally posted by snoopy
I think people are forgetting that it originally belongs to the jews before it was taken from them.

No snoopy... flatly you are WRONG.

It (Israel) is the reward that Jews get for Holy Work... However Israel is not a place, but a mindset. And it was not taken from them, but rather the mindset was lost by them because the Lord has punished them for their transgressions; failure to serve as demanded by the Lord.

The purpose of the People of Israel in this world is Divine service.

Zionism redefines the true essential nature of the people of Israel, and substitutes for it a completely contradictory and opposite character; a materialistic worldly nation.

WHY IS WORLD JEWRY OPPOSED TO THE ZIONIST STATE

Only when you (the potential Isrealite) act as an instrument in the Lord's hands; doing his HOLY WORKS, will HE (The Lord, Allah, Jah, Yahweh, etc.) grant you the divine kingdom (Israel).

Do right and you get the divine kingdom.

NOT set up an army and government and draw a border and you get Israel.

Perform holy works and the lord grants you salvation; Israel.

Comprende?

Arising from exile to form a state is an act forbidden by the Lord. The Jewish People are to remain under the rule of the nations of this world. Humbly waiting the day that THE LORD removes all borders from their mind and the minds of the populous at large..

Tied to the whipping post. - Here to suffer. - Slaves of the nations of this world. - To be Crucified. "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do." etc. Those that accept this suffering in this life with clear chittam, get a ticket into the promised land; True Israel.

Now if Jews choose to go against the LORDS WILL and try to found a state "a terrible punishment will be upon them"; ie. children with bombs strapped to their chests will come falling out of the woodwork. Thats scripture.

We call these people Jewish Nationalists (Zionists)

And the children with bombs strapped to their chest we call Jihadists (Holy Warriors with a one way ticket to heaven)

Technically, there is a difference between Jewish Nationalists and Zionists... the Zionist are those that are tricking the Jews (potential Israelites) into subscribing to being part of the physical nation of Israel with its borders in the Middle East. The Zionists do this because they are consumed with deadly sins and act as the DEVIL's advocate for the sake of power and profit.

It is because of the Zionists that we find the nation of Israel on the ILLUSION that is the textbook political map.

Your belief in that illusion is due to Maya.

Additional Reading

Slowly masticate upon that bit of Eucharist for a few hours before swallowing.

Follow with a glass of altar wine while meditating upon the thought of drinking each drop of blood that has been shed since the Zionists convinced the Jews to form a physical nation in Palestine.

Sri Oracle

edit for "external source" rather than "quote", my apologies donttreadonme, I'm a little slow on syntax


[edit on 10-9-2006 by Sri Oracle]

Originally posted by Tuning Spork

Israel was founded via official recognition by the U.N. following Great Britian's abdication of Palestine's administration between World War I and World War II. No nation called "Palestine" (the land portion west of the River Jordan) ever existed.

Really, I could've sworn Palestine was created as early as 130 C.E. by Emperor Hadrian. I believe they called it Syria Palaestina. It wasnt an "all arabic" Palestine, after all, the Jewish and Muslim communities lived together in the "four sacred cities" for a long period of time, but the majority of jewish people were taken out of the lands around 68 C.E. It was mostly an Arabic population for much of the common era. It wasn't untillthe late 19th century that the "zionist" movement to move back to the holy land started sprouting, and Israel itself was not founded until 1947.

[edit on 9-10-2006 by WolfofWar]

Originally posted by Sri Oracle

Originally posted by snoopy
I think people are forgetting that it originally belongs to the jews before it was taken from them.

No snoopy... flatly you are WRONG.

It (Israel) is the reward that Jews get for Holy Work... However Israel is not a place, but a mindset. And it was not taken from them, but rather the mindset was lost by them because the Lord has punished them for their transgressions; failure to serve as demanded by the Lord.

Are you just in denial? How can you even make such a claim??? Hell, it's written about as early as 1200 BC by the Egyptians. Earlier if one were to use the Bible.

Please save the rhetoric for some other discussion.

Originally posted by snoopy

Are you just in denial? How can you even make such a claim??? Hell, it's written about as early as 1200 BC by the Egyptians. Earlier if one were to use the Bible.

Please save the rhetoric for some other discussion.

You're giving Sri Oracle some wiggle room to go off on the "Israel is a mindset not a place" tangent again.

How about proposing that the tribes of the Jews have the most ancient recordable territorial claim on the area? That might tie him up for a bit.

Mod Note: Big Quote – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 11-9-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]

Originally posted by snoopy
Are you just in denial? How can you even make such a claim??? Hell, it's written about as early as 1200 BC by the Egyptians. Earlier if one were to use the Bible.

Please save the rhetoric for some other discussion.

Well... seeing as this is the discussion I have begun, I will continue my rhetoric through to the end.

Am I in denial? Of the physical nation of Israel... Yes absolutely. It is an abomination; Blasphemy. The LORD will only bring terrible punishment upon I, if I accept such an illusion into my chittam. And so I do not. I suggest the same for you. Ahmadinejad ask this of you as well in an attempt to save your soul and to avert mutually assured destruction.

At the end of the bronze age, yes Jews did come wandering out of the desert nomadically and settle in the area in question, The Holy Land, but it was not their land alone; True Jews are a nomadic people and if they wish to reach True Spiritual Israel they should remain such; a nation without borders. But, because some of them they failed to do so, and clung to a specific place and condition they were exiled by the Lord; Babylonian/Roman invasion. Change is inevitable. Accept that fact and you continually wander through the wilderness from Holy Land to Holy Land. Fail to accept that fact and you'll never see Israel, you'll live in tribulation and eventually exile; diaspora. Fight that diaspora, force yourself militarily upon a land you have been exiled from, and children with bombs strapped to their chest apear at your front door.

I am that I am

I have no fear of the future

I go where He places me

Diaspora will never come of me because I am a feather in the Lord's wind, living without expectation.

I am always in the Holy Land. I always drink Holy Water.


Sri Oracle


"It is the business of the superior man to recognize in time that the moment for retreat has come." "He who has the courage thus to forego what is near wins what is afar" -I Ching

Originally posted by Reality Hurts
How about proposing that the tribes of the Jews have the most ancient recordable territorial claim on the area? That might tie him up for a bit.

A true Jew makes no "territorial claim" because he recognizes ONE Holy Land under ONE God.

I am that I am

ONE

Judiasm is a MONOtheistic religion.

A Jew is supposed to have learned that the ONE Lord will provide for you as you wander through the desert. Thats what Moses was here to teach.

Have FAITH. SERVE. And water will come from rock, manna from heaven.

I cannot recall anything in the Torah about drawing a line in the sand around Israel and defending it with a military.

Sri Oracle

Sri Oracle,

Are you proposing that Moses and the tribes of Israel that came into the "promised land" are Zionists?

To state that Jewish people do not have a historical record of being in the land that is currently the State of Israel as a predominantly Jewish state that stretches back at least 2,000+ years boggles me. On the flip side, one could contend using your logic that since the Palestinians of the region have never had an actual country to call their own, they also do not have a claim to the land. I mean there is no historical record of a Palestinian Arab run Country in the region of Israel/Gaza/West Bank. Palestine is just a "spritual nation" not an actual physical one. Palestine as a State is just as much of an "ILLUSION" as you claim Israel to be using your logic.

Originally posted by Sri Oracle
Blaine,

Scared or ashamed...

Both.

I accept that.

My president (Bush) is the "de facto leader" of the Coalition in Iraq that is now responsible for 40,000 civilian deaths in 3 years time. All this with blessings under his administration's rule.

Again - Is this a Bush bashing thread or is it about what Ahmadinejad said?

That, my SUV loving friend

My signature is a failed attempt at humor. I can see I should change it. Its a cultural difference as I live where a SUV is a necessity and not a toy.

Hezbollah is no more than a reflection in the pond.

.... and a reflection of Ahmadinejad's true nature.

Meditate on that,

On the fact that your hatred of Bush has so consumed you that you can not discuss an unrelated topic without converting it to a Bush bashing thread? I'll bow out as I'm not a Republican anyway. Just tired of seeing this turn every thread on ATS into an argument about Bush. Not to mention defending a homicidal madman as if he were anything other than another pile of human waste that should be drowned in a pool of pig's blood for his sins against humanity. I can not fathom how anyone who is not just like him could defend him. Supporting people who blow up their own children and innocent civilians in the name of Allah is pure evil. Muslims are decent people and its to bad they have to live with this millstone of terrorism around their necks pulling them back into the dark ages. In the end, only the Muslims can put a stop to this and I hope they wake up real soon before it is to late. It may already be to late.

Do you think were getting a little off topic here. There has been issues about Israel for many years and i expect many years to come, would I agree on President Ahmadinejad views about Israel well partially yes but I'm not inclined to make any decision on what should or shouldn't be done yet.

As for Iran its self I'm am saddened by the extent that the media is pushing this inti Iranian propaganda. Iran is a beutiful country, it has a rich culture and its people are some of the friendliest people in the world its such a shame the Us are currently pushing this anti-Iranian crap around.

Originally posted by Blaine91555Ahmadinejad is the de facto leader of Hezbollah who routinely straps bombs to children to blow up innocent civilians including children.

When was the last suicide bomb by Hezbollah?

Supporting people who blow up their own children and innocent civilians in the name of Allah is pure evil.

What do you mean, how did Ahmadinejad do this?

Thanks for the rhetoric BS....I am sure it impresses the chicks, but it doesn't make any point.

Originally posted by Edn
Do you think were getting a little off topic here.

No I don't. You need to read the OP's original post. Here is a quote from it:

Ahmadinejad, may peace be upon you. I'd take you as my President over Mr. Bushy any day.

The post is about defending Ahmadinejad and presenting him as some sort of saint and trashing America. I'm just commenting on the OP's words.

Actually, he said...

Juan Cole, a University of Michigan Professor of Modern Middle East and South Asian History, translates the Persian phrase as:

The Imam said that this regime occupying Jerusalem (een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods) must [vanish from] the page of time (bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad).[8]

According to Cole, "Ahmadinejad did not say he was going to wipe Israel off the map because no such idiom exists in Persian" and "He did say he hoped its regime, i.e., a Jewish-Zionist state occupying Jerusalem, would collapse."[1]

The Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI) translates the phrase similarly:

[T]his regime that is occupying Qods [Jerusalem] must be eliminated from the pages of history.[9]

en.wikipedia.org...

But, yea, despite what he said, he's not being realistic about the anger towards Israel. Whether he likes it or not, Israel will be there. Ahmadinejad is just pulling the strings of support from the Iranian populace, much as Bush does in America, or any politician for that matter. Khatami was better, too bad Iran is stuck with that guy for the time being.

[edit on 11-9-2006 by Jamuhn]