original sin?

where did this concept come from? when was it first uttered?
paul wasnt the first one who mentioned this right?



or was he?

some say if you take away paul fromt he bible... you take away the mention of original sin. is this true? i just want to get to the bottom of this and find out where this comes from.


thnx.

You're right! It's not about Paul! Paul is a fallacy! To understand sin we must understand God. Sin is the lack of God... which is emptiness within... because of not accepting the infinite connectedness of the infinite God of infinite reality that will fulfill all of our vessels

thank you.
yeh... in terms of the christian doctrine i understand... original sin. but im asking if one can tell me when was the term "original sin"... or whatever they called it back then first coined?




[edit on 8-9-2006 by krossfyter]

1 john 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
www.gotquestions.org...

i once poked a badger with a spoon


does this qualify as an original sin?

Originally posted by krossfyter
where did this concept come from? when was it first uttered?
paul wasnt the first one who mentioned this right?



or was he?

some say if you take away paul fromt he bible... you take away the mention of original sin. is this true? i just want to get to the bottom of this and find out where this comes from.


thnx.

Words have meaning, which is why I use them to communicate to you and others. The term or phrase "original sin" and when it was first coined is not the main focus....or shouldn't be the main focus but rather the IDEA of it.

Roman Catholicism pretty much coined the term as it teaches when Adam and Eve sinned against God they passed on their sin to their children. Thier sin then was the "original sin". It started with them and because of this Rome teaches that all infants should be baptized so as to remove that "stain".

Paul, nor anyone in Scripture, ever coined the phrase "original sin". Basically, the phrase is not Biblical. It is a term used to communicate the idea that man is seprated from God because he is born into sin.

sin is a control mechanism

there is no absolute good or absolute evil

EXAMPLE
my theory on the choice between good and nachos (or another snackfood of your liking)

you are given the choice to save a starving african kid, or eat some nachos because you haven't had anything to eat all day

you eat the nachos

this isn't inherently evil so much as it is selfish

god created the universe for a selfish reason
therefore
selfishness is good

so you have made the right choice

-----------------------------

isn't manipulation of philosophical ideas fun?

-------------------------

anyway, a statement from "what the bleep do we know?" best describes choices

does this choice further me, or hinder my spiritual growth? (paraphrased)
---------------------------
so eating the nachos does help you in the short term, but you then have the life of an innocent on your hands and therefore the only proper choice is to give the starvin kid some nachos

anyway, if you can sort through my stream of conciousness, you'll be able to understand this

if you do get this, please explain it more coherently

Hi Krossfyter/

To SIN.....to miss the mark.
That which God created was all good.
When Adam and Eve chose to 'eat of the tree'......they went against God.
They chose for themselves what looked good to them....and not what God said.
The SIN of Adam and Eve is not carried over to US......DEATH is what eventuated because of SIN entering into the world.
Death was brought by SIN.
More on this thread

Also, here is another thread .....

www.abovetopsecret.com...

hope that helps.

helen

Originally posted by helen670
Hi Krossfyter/

To SIN.....to miss the mark.
That which God created was all good.
When Adam and Eve chose to 'eat of the tree'......they went against God.
They chose for themselves what looked good to them....and not what God said.
The SIN of Adam and Eve is not carried over to US......DEATH is what eventuated because of SIN entering into the world.
Death was brought by SIN.
helen

Why did God create Adam and Eve so naive? Why did he create the Tree and the Serpent and put them close to his innocent creation?
If you tell a child " don't touch the box on the table" you know that when you leave the room the child will touch the box!

Below is a definition of free, in case you want to say they had free will:

FREE: exempt from external authority, interference, restriction, etc., as a person or one's will, thought, choice, action, etc.; independent; unrestricted.

Originally posted by Ersatz

Originally posted by helen670
Hi Krossfyter/

To SIN.....to miss the mark.
That which God created was all good.
When Adam and Eve chose to 'eat of the tree'......they went against God.
They chose for themselves what looked good to them....and not what God said.
The SIN of Adam and Eve is not carried over to US......DEATH is what eventuated because of SIN entering into the world.
Death was brought by SIN.
helen

Why did God create Adam and Eve so naive? Why did he create the Tree and the Serpent and put them close to his innocent creation?
If you tell a child " don't touch the box on the table" you know that when you leave the room the child will touch the box!

Below is a definition of free, in case you want to say they had free will:

FREE: exempt from external authority, interference, restriction, etc., as a person or one's will, thought, choice, action, etc.; independent; unrestricted.

Hi Ersatz/
Actually I was going to say ''Free Will''
It was given to both Adam and Eve.
They chose to defy that!
You see, man is not a robot or a mechanical device.
He always has 'Free will'', of-course depends on what circumstances.......
eg/
a choice given without any interference.(as you said)

Man's fall was that they liked what was told to them by the Serpant.....they took a Liking to what was offered , as to what God had told them.
Of-course being that they both went against what God had said, they missed their target.
They Delighted in a better offer made to them.
All is not lost though.
My thoughts, anyway.
helen

Originally posted by helen670
Man's fall was that they liked what was told to them by the Serpant.....they took a Liking to what was offered , as to what God had told them.
Of-course being that they both went against what God had said, they missed their target.
helen

Presumably God knew they would fail their test, so why put them to the test?

You are going to say free will again

Does God know or does He not know that a certain individual will be good or bad? If He knows, then it necessarily follows that one is compelled to act as God knew beforehand he would act, otherwise God's knowledge would be imperfect.

Far too many well meaning Christians fall back on "free will" to explain why God placed Adam and Eve in that situation.

No where in Scripture will you find anything about man having "free will". It is though, according to many, "implied" within Scripture that man has free will.

Yet this is in conflict with what Scripture does in fact say. God, before the foundations of the earth, knew exactly what would happen. He knew they would fall, sin would enter the world and His creation. He predestined for it to all take place as it has. He has also chosen those who will be His. No one "chooses" God for none seek Him, rather God calls His and He knew before time and space where created who He would choose.

So the "free will" argument is incorrect for no where are we told that man has free choice.....or better stated, man has a very limited range of what we would call "free will" when it comes to things such as our future or destiny. In a football game the offensive team has many choices (plays) to choose from. They do so freely yet even that is based on many factors. The quarterback can run the plays he so chooses but he can't do the same for his eternity for God alone calls him and saves him.

Now why did God decide to do things in this manner? We have no such answer within Scripture. We can only ponder upon it but what we do know is that God is the Potter and we are the clay. Scripture says, regarding God being the Potter, "Who are we, the clay, to say to the potter, 'What are you doing' "?

Normal Sexuality

...All negative mental attitudes can lead directly or indirectly to these violent and destructive catastrophes of sexual energy. Hatred of sex, hatred of the Arcanum A.Z.F. disgust or repugnance towards sex, disdain for sex, an underestimation of sex, Fear of sex, passionate jealousy, sexual cynicism, sexual sadism, obscenity, pornography, sexual brutality, etc., turn the human being into an infrasexual...

...When man and woman unite sexually in the Perfect Matrimony, they are truly ineffable Gods in those voluptuous moments. Man and woman united sexually form a divine Androgynous being, a male-female Elohim, a terrifically divine Divinity. The two halves, separated since the dawn of life are united for one instant in order to create. This is ineffable... sublime... this is a thing of paradise...


...In Lemuria, no human being ejaculated the Semen. Then, couples united sexually in the temples to create. During those moments, the lunar hierarchies knew how to utilize one spermatozoon and one egg in order to create without the necessity of the couple reaching the orgasm and seminal ejaculation. No one spilled the semen. The sexual act was a sacrament which was only performed within the temple. Woman in that time gave birth to children without pain, and the serpent was raised victoriously through the medullar canal. In that epoch, human beings had not yet left Eden, all of Nature obeyed them, and they knew neither pain nor sin. The tenebrous Lucifers were the ones who showed humans how to spill the semen. The original sin of our first parents was the crime of spilling the semen. That is Fornication. When the paradisiacal human being fornicated, he then penetrated the kingdom of the Lucifers. The human being of this day and age is luciferic...


...The struggle of many monks, nuns, anchorites, pseudo-yogis, etc., to bottle up sex within their religious fanaticism, to confine it to the prison of their penitence, to muzzle it or sterilize it, to prohibit all creative manifestation, etc., converts the fanatics into a slave of their own passions. They become slaves of sex, incapable of thinking about anything other than sex. These are the ones who are fanatic about sex. These are the degenerates ones of infra-sexuality. These people discharge their energy every night with disgusting nocturnal emissions or acquire homosexual vices or masturbate miserably. Wanting to confine sex is like wanting to bottle up the Sun. A man like this is the most abject slave of sex without any benefit or true pleasure. A man like this is an unhappy sinner. A woman like this is a sterile mule, a vile slave of that which she wants to enslave (sex). The enemies of the Holy Spirit are people of the Abyss. It would have been better for these people if they had never been born or if they "tied a millstone around their necks and hurled themselves to the bottom of the sea."

In fact, the etymology of the word "sin" implies the spilling of the semen or orgasm.


I'll see if I can look it up...



We ought to consider the following as well:

Klipoth 7: Saturn


...But the opposite are the enemies of the Holy Spirit - the fornicators.

In the Seventh Sphere of Hell, related with the negative aspect of Saturn, you find all the enemies of the Holy Spirit. They declare themselves enemies of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes they do it consciously, sometimes unconsciously.

Dante Alighieri found Priests there, in the Seventh Sphere, who were celibate. Of course, when someone doesn't conquer the dominion of the sexual force in their physical body, and rejects the sexual act, but ignores how to transmute, they are an enemy of the Holy Spirit.

These people think they can reach God by rejecting the sexual act - they ignore that in order to reach that level one needs first of all to teach the physical body how to transmute in the physical act and to create the Wedding Garment of the Soul, to reach the Second Birth.

They are enemies of the Holy Spirit - most of them have nocturnal pollutions, wet dreams, where all of the energy of the Holy Spirit spills out of their body. They fornicate when they have that type of dream, because Fornication is when the sexual matter leaves the sexual organs - that is fornication. Whether it is by masturbation, or wet dream, or whether in legitimate matrimony - it doesn't matter how the sexual matter leaves the body, if it is spilled, it is fornication, it is written.



And if any man's Semen go out from him during copulation, then he shall wash all his flesh in (the sexual) waters (of Yesod), and be unclean until the even (Klipoth).

The woman also with whom man shall lie with semen during copulation, they shall both bathe themselves in (the sexual) waters (of Yesod), and be unclean until the even (Klipoth). - Leviticus15:16, 18

Regards

Originally posted by Ersatz

Originally posted by helen670
Man's fall was that they liked what was told to them by the Serpant.....they took a Liking to what was offered , as to what God had told them.
Of-course being that they both went against what God had said, they missed their target.
helen

Presumably God knew they would fail their test, so why put them to the test?

You are going to say free will again

Does God know or does He not know that a certain individual will be good or bad? If He knows, then it necessarily follows that one is compelled to act as God knew beforehand he would act, otherwise God's knowledge would be imperfect.

hey again.
Well,
Although God did know that the First man would fail the simple Commandement ,God also knew that by giving man free will , it would be their choice .......
'' tree of the knowledge of good and evil''.......choose to know evil and good.
Adam saw the tree of Knowledge...... ‘to be desired’ (Gen.3:6)....to desire (passion)
A delight to the eyes.....he wanted to partake of it.....God allowed it to happen because ALL were given free will, including the angels.
Interfering would mean that man had not a Free Will....
After the fall....God asks Adam to correct his mistake......
‘Where are you?’ (Gen.3:9).
God allowed Adam a second chance.....to cofess his mistake.
Adam points the finger at Eve, and Eve blames the Serpant.....'confession' of one's sin(missing the mark)
Adam and Eve blamed each other for their mistake.....therefore, Sin Entered into the world...Death.
Before Man was created, Angels were present with their creator.
Angels are bodiless spirits, created by God.
They also serve God being of their own free will.
When Lucifer decided that he would not, he was not allowed to be part of Gods Kingdom(wanted to rule) and fell to earth, taking with him those angels that followed him.
These angels became the 'fallen ones'...demons as we know them......also given free will to act......but with certain limits.
The Son of God.....Jesus Christ, becomes the Second Adam.....‘The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven’ (1 Cor.15:47).
..........

According to teachings of the Church.....passed down from the Apostles, when there are enough people to fill Heaven, then it will be the end of the world, replacing the fallen angels that fell.

Does God know or does He not know that a certain individual will be good or bad?

Well, i'm sure He does, but again, we are given a choice to decide on our own.

Although God did know that Adam would Sin.......He was given a second choice by Confessing his mistake and Adam failed again......blaming Eve and Eve the serpant.
All God asks is to Confess the Mistake and take the blame for oneself and not blame others......

hope that makes sense?

helen

Originally posted by helen670

Before Man was created, Angels were present with their creator.
Angels are bodiless spirits, created by God.
They also serve God being of their own free will.
When Lucifer decided that he would not, he was not allowed to be part of Gods Kingdom(wanted to rule) and fell to earth, taking with him those angels that followed him.

helen

We are going round in circles with the conversation about free will, you are not reading my questions and giving me a logical answer, never mind.
How would one explain this: (A thread I tried to start earlier)

I wonder at which point of the creation did God create angels...

1. Lucifer rebelled against God, despite knowing the full glory of heaven, and seeing God face to face.

2. Lucifer was able to convince a third of God's own angels that he was a better choice than Yahweh.

3. After his rebellion, Lucifer was not sent directly to hell. He was given reign over God's creation, Earth, and the license to have strong influence over God's most precious creation, mankind. According to Christians, he is still here, greatly influencing world affairs, even 2000 years after Jesus supposedly defeated "death & hell".

Originally posted by Ersatz

Originally posted by helen670

Before Man was created, Angels were present with their creator.
Angels are bodiless spirits, created by God.
They also serve God being of their own free will.
When Lucifer decided that he would not, he was not allowed to be part of Gods Kingdom(wanted to rule) and fell to earth, taking with him those angels that followed him.

helen

We are going round in circles with the conversation about free will, you are not reading my questions and giving me a logical answer, never mind.
How would one explain this: (A thread I tried to start earlier)

I wonder at which point of the creation did God create angels...

1. Lucifer rebelled against God, despite knowing the full glory of heaven, and seeing God face to face.

2. Lucifer was able to convince a third of God's own angels that he was a better choice than Yahweh.

3. After his rebellion, Lucifer was not sent directly to hell. He was given reign over God's creation, Earth, and the license to have strong influence over God's most precious creation, mankind. According to Christians, he is still here, greatly influencing world affairs, even 2000 years after Jesus supposedly defeated "death & hell".

hi again.
Hm,
maybe I'm not understanding!
In your above 'quote' are you answering your question?
eg/

I wonder at which point of the creation did God create angels...

below that quote, you list
1.
2.
3...........is that the order you think Angels were created?
Sorry, but i'm confused?
Angels were present with God before man was created.
In Psalms, we know that King David speaks of the Heavenly Angels being with God.....These are the words of the King and Prophet David.
"Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" (Ps. 104:4)
And also,
''Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory''(Is.6:1-3).
And we have many more in Scripture about Angels.......
''The Prophet Isaiah saw seraphim's (6:2)
Ezekiel the cherubim's (10:8)
Micaiah said to the King Ahab'' I saw the Lord sitting on His throne and all the host of heaven standing by Him on His right hand and on His left'' (I Kings 22:19).

Nehemiah in Prayer.....'' Thou, even Thou, art Lord alone; Thou has made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host (Neh. 9:6).

And again, the Prophet Daniel, saw God on His throne and a thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him .........

Christ Himself says that each of us have a Guardian Angel as a protector.....Matt.18:10)
And Finally in Revelation it let's us know that Lucifer, fell like a blazing star,and taking with him a third of the angels.....becoming demons.
‘And a great star fell from heaven, blazing like a torch... and a third of the stars was struck, so that a third of their light was darkened’ (Rev.8:10, 12)

All Angels were created with Free will.....as man was also.

does that help?

helen

Originally posted by helen670


All Angels were created with Free will.....as man was also.

does that help?

helen

Why would any angel wish to leave the company of God?

What could be better than closeness to God ??

Why would that angel be able to convince other angels that the company of God may be less desirable than something else??

Originally posted by Ersatz

Originally posted by helen670


All Angels were created with Free will.....as man was also.

does that help?

helen

Why would any angel wish to leave the company of God?

What could be better than closeness to God ??

Why would that angel be able to convince other angels that the company of God may be less desirable than something else??

Hi Ers/
Are you asking me for an answer to the questions you posted?
hmmmm,
well,
Of-course the Closeness of God was good........He created the Angels.
We also know from Scripture, that the Angels worshipped God and sang Praise to Him in Heaven.....
So, also the Church represent Heaven on Earth....the People are like angels giving Praise to God.
about the Angel lucifer and his desire to do his own thing.
Lucifer fell to Pride.
He wanted all praise to himself.......so, also he took his followers with him....those angels that wanted to be a part of his congregation.
Man also falls to Pride.
Pride is one of the biggest sins........it's mans downfall......though man can be all good and do everything good, Pride will bring mans downfall.
(Reminds me of the film'Devils Advocate''Al Pacino and Keanu Reeves)

helen