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Best assualt rifle - configuration and caliber?

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posted on Sep, 9 2006 @ 09:51 PM
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I almost hate to say this, but the most successful "assault rifle" continues to be the AK47, as far as I know, if you take into consideration its simplicity of design, its reliablity, and its widespread and continued use.




posted on Sep, 10 2006 @ 12:51 AM
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As the new HK417 has now been revelaed I'll happily go with that.

15,000 MTBF guaranteed - now that's quite something for a 12 inch barrelled 7.62x51mm.



posted on Sep, 10 2006 @ 01:15 AM
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Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
I almost hate to say this, but the most successful "assault rifle" continues to be the AK47, as far as I know, if you take into consideration its simplicity of design, its reliablity, and its widespread and continued use.


have to agree there, ak-47 is the colt 1911 of assualt riffles we will be seeing these guns on the battlefields of the world for the forseable future, it could easyly see intself a hundred years of battlefield use the way this weapon has spread and been adopted throughout the world.



posted on Sep, 10 2006 @ 02:48 AM
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As the new HK417 has now been revelaed I'll happily go with that.


Sorry, no dice.

Yet another "forward assist" wonder.

SA80 mixed with M16 lower receiver cycled by a G36 short-stroke gas piston.

Both 416 and 417 are products of clever marketing targeted at US market, that's all.

When politics/economics are taken out of the picture, why bother, just go with G36 to begin with.



posted on Sep, 10 2006 @ 09:42 AM
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IMHO the AK-108 5.45x39 assault rifle exceeds the performance of every other assault rifle. By using a balanced action system to counterweight the movement of the bolt carrier inside of the rifle it reduced the "recoil" or muzzle jump. This makes the AK108 have even less muzzle jump than the AR15/M16.

This is one thing despite all the problems that the AR15 gas tube recoil system was good for. With a gas tube recoil system the moving parts are less .. thus the moving parts are lighter than most gas piston firearms. This allowed the AR15 to have less muzzle jump than identical weight / caliber weapons that had gas pistons... However now with the advanced AK 107/108 the rifles retain their legendary AK reliability and have less muzzle jump than AR15/M16s.

world.guns.ru...

The Abakan is also an incredible weapon and I believe way ahead of its time. It has the ability to phase shift the recoil from the first shot till after the second shot is fired. This means that in 2 shot burst mode the rifle is very accurate because the recoil from the first round does not effect the rifle until after the second round is fired.
world.guns.ru...

A mix between the Abakan delayed recoil system and a balanced Gas piston system seems like a likely future for assault rife designing.




The AR is the second-most laughable assault rifle, all right. Look at it funny, and it'll refuse to work. FN,


You might want to specify which AR you are talking about. AR180s are very reliable.


[edit on 10-9-2006 by Heckman]



posted on Sep, 10 2006 @ 01:36 PM
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Originally posted by iskanderSorry, no dice.

Yet another "forward assist" wonder.

SA80 mixed with M16 lower receiver cycled by a G36 short-stroke gas piston.


Give one single example of any SA80 parts that have been "mixed" into the design of the 416.

PS - If you can't then your post falls into the same less than Einsteinian category as your recommendation of the AK-103 with a cough, cough "lower impulse 7.62 round".



posted on Sep, 10 2006 @ 05:47 PM
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Retseh, a word of advice. Look into things before going out on a limb. No need to clear your throat here.


Give one single example of any SA80 parts that have been "mixed" into the design of the 416.


I didn't say anything about "parts" Retseh;


SA80 mixed with M16 lower receiver cycled by a G36 short-stroke gas piston.


For the people that know what the deal with 416 is, I don't need to rephrase that, but in your case, I'll just quote from the source Heckman actually listed;


Based on the experience, gained during successful upgrade program of the British SA80 / L85A1 program, HK decided to cure the existing M16 rifles and M4 carbines from most of their problems, inherent to this 40-years old design.


world.guns.ru...

In my book a cure for M16 is an AK or a G36. Nice, we're firing Belgian ammo, use Belgian MGs, Italian pistols, and now just like with SA80, HK comes to the rescue of the M16. Heck, looks like we just might get out small arms mess in order in another decade or two, to bad that we can't do it by our selves though.


PS - If you can't then your post falls into the same less than Einsteinian category as your recommendation of the AK-103 with a cough, cough "lower impulse 7.62 round".


M. Kalashnikovs own words, not mine. Again, I'll advise looking up peoples reputations before making accusations.

He called it "modernized", as it was a standard practice in ex-USSR, and by modernized he meant a lighter, lower impulse round built much like M74, but in 7.62mm.

Yugo M67 is good example for such modernization attempt. High velocity fragmentation approach was deemed unacceptable exactly do to lack of penetration, because frag based design turns it into a LOS only round.

In short, M67 was still to heavy to effectively tumble, and produced more recoil then desired.

A modernized M43 does not officially exist at least to my knowledge, even though it was worked on for decades, and interestingly enough, when UMG testing was announced, it was competing against a modernized "contemporary" design.

2+2=M43M



IMHO the AK-108 5.45x39 assault rifle exceeds the performance of every other assault rifle. By using a balanced action system to counterweight the movement of the bolt carrier inside of the rifle it reduced the "recoil" or muzzle jump.


I agree Heckman, its just that I'm not a fan of small calibers. SS109 fragments on anything under 100m, while M74 is less unstable it ricochets' like crazy do to its steel core and hollow tip.

A simple situation. One side - AK47s, other side - M16s, in between a wall of bamboo. Side with AK47s chop the other side to bits, while the side with M16s chop a couple of feet into the bamboo.

M43 shot out of SKS still goes through a tree, taking away the cover that is sufficient against SS109, and partially effective against M74.

Currently AK108 is the best mass produced full auto recoil managed AR, even though case-less HK G11 is reported to be even better.

AN-94, I can't help but to be skeptical when it comes to it being mass produced. It's delicate, expensive, etc. Specialized use, absolutely, arming an army with it, no way.



posted on Sep, 10 2006 @ 06:49 PM
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All depends on what you're going to use it for.

I went with the AR-15. TONS of aftermarket goodies for it and it's worked flawlessly so far. Would I bet my life on it?? Yup.

5.56mm isn't enough?? Tell that to thousands of Iraqi's who's families would tell you otherwise.

Just want something cheap to pick up and spray and pray? I think the AK-47 would be the best bet.

Alot of the long range competition shooters have switched over to AR's from bolt action rifles. They've dumped some serious coin into them but they're outperforming the bolt action rifles.

Or drop the stock off, put an adjustable one on, put a carbine upper and barrel on it and you've got a good close quarters combat rifle.

The AR platform has to be the most versatile one out there.



posted on Sep, 10 2006 @ 09:59 PM
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MrWoodsy, welcome to ATS forums.


All depends on what you're going to use it for.


Title of this thread is "Best assault rifle". Mil use, not home defense and fun at the range.


I went with the AR-15. TONS of aftermarket goodies for it and it's worked flawlessly so far. Would I bet my life on it?? Yup.


Good for you. It is indeed a very comfortable sporting rifle to shoot, and there is a vast amount of aftermarket parts available for it.


5.56mm isn't enough?? Tell that to thousands of Iraqi's who's families would tell you otherwise.


That is a useless and callous statement. Shrapnel isn't enough? Tell that to thousands of IED victims and their families. Catch my drift? Good, knock if off, this is a civilized forum.

How about this, do you know standard penetration values? Sand bags, walls, structures, etc? Standard basic training stuff.

Like sand bagging a jeep for example, what M43 does, what it does out of RPD/RPK.

How about sand bag penetration from .308, M43 and SS109? Then you can tell me what is enough and what is not. A well placed .22LR shot will kill from over 100 yards. Insurgent snipers armed with .22 bolt action with a 2 liter pop bottle taped to a barrel regularly score neck hits on troops 100 yards away.

Troops move with armor to clear a street, engine noise covers the report of the suppressed .22, and a single hit brings the opp to a halt, forces an evac, etc.

In this case both .22 and 5.56X45 are LOS rounds, and do not provide effective penetration. It's really simple, two 4 round AK47 bursts will crumble and penetrate a 10" heavy rock and grout wall negating it as effective cover, while for S109 it takes at least three 4 round bursts to breach the wall, but the fragmentation of the projectiles cause only superficial wounds.

.308 busts that wall with two 3 round bursts, and given higher recoil with standard 20 round mags, AK configuration is clearly a better approach.


Just want something cheap to pick up and spray and pray? I think the AK-47 would be the best bet.


Cheap? Sure, but AK come in all kind of flavors. If you want better, stock .223 Vepr II for example out shoots stock M16/AR15. Super Vepr, while costing a lot less then custom ARs, hangs in there neck and neck with legendary AK reliability.

Spray and pray? Buddy, that's what 90 percent of shooting is. When it gets dark, everybody shoots at the moon. Most combat casualties are from indirect fire, be it mortars, artillery, bombardment, mines, etc. Snipers are the only rifleman that do not spray and pray, and statistically they are the ones that score the overwhelming majority of kills.

All in all, given price/performance ratio when it comes to battlefield small arms, to this day its AK all the way.


Alot of the long range competition shooters have switched over to AR's from bolt action rifles. They've dumped some serious coin into them but they're outperforming the bolt action rifles.


Bolt action is still the kind of precision long range shooting, always was and always will be. I don't know much about competetion fads these days, but when it comes to war, self loaders are being very sucsesfyully used as front line sniper rifles, but mission specific long range still belongs to the bolt.


Or drop the stock off, put an adjustable one on, put a carbine upper and barrel on it and you've got a good close quarters combat rifle.


We're talking about different things. You're talking about a hobby, I'm talking about guys that take incoming fire and have send lead down range.


The AR platform has to be the most versatile one out there.


While all kinds of bells and whistles dazzle your buddies at the range, they do not make a battle worthy weapon. No amount of flashy laser sights and tactical flashlights will help when the bolt won't close, while some guy in flip flops keeps hammering away through a mud wall from a beet up AK made in the 60s.

And even though modern body armor with hard plates is said to stop a standard steel core M43 round, such armor is extremely expensive and is easily defeated by 7N23 AP round with 100% success rate from 300 yards out.

So when it comes to warfare and not personal interest in firearms, if that same guy in flip flops wants to be a player on the modern battlefield, all he needs is a mag loaded with AP rounds, which happily defeat extremely expensive modern body armor from maximum usable engagement range.



posted on Sep, 11 2006 @ 02:01 AM
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AN-94, I can't help but to be skeptical when it comes to it being mass produced. It's delicate, expensive, etc. Specialized use, absolutely, arming an army with it, no way.


I agree completely. I think the Abakan will have more use as a technology demonstration for advanced future weapons designing than anything else.



posted on Sep, 11 2006 @ 05:33 AM
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I agree completely. I think the Abakan will have more use as a technology demonstration for advanced future weapons designing than anything else.


From what I know they are manufacturing them in limited numbers to equip elite forces.

As far as a tech demonstrator, unfortunately that's the fate of incredible G11.



posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 02:34 AM
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I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned Nikonov's An-94 Abakan. Other then the fact that its buttstock folds the bad direction, ie blocks hand from the trigger, it is an excellent weapon. Just don't fold the buttstock, that's all. Or, if you are going mobile, or something, then you can fold it. I have yet to see a weapon match the An-94's 2 round burst which has no recoil, and an experienced shooter can get both bullets in one hole. But many other assault rifles are fine as well.



posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 02:37 AM
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Oops! I thought there was another page! It was on the second page where the talk about the An-94 started. The Abakan is a great rifle.

The AK47 was successful, but not the best. The new AKs and AN-94 are much better, but more expensive, though. But that doesn't mean that you should mess with the AK47.



posted on Sep, 18 2006 @ 08:08 AM
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Not much of an Assault Rifle kind of guy, but I will stand up and say for spray and pray MrWoodsy is right the classic AK-47 is a great all-rounder; give that rifle a good kick around the battlefield and then pick it up again and it'll still shoot (and relatively straight).
The SA-80 is shocking, I've heard bad reviews from friends in the forces about this joke of a gun, but suprisingly its later variations SA-80A1 is a bit of an improvement; granted this gun will also have a fit in any weather other than British (so thats any weather other than light drizzle, inc. sunshine!)

I will say, though, a good carbine aught to be the M4 carbine, easy to use and modify appropriately. A little tempramental, but then again any weapon in the hands of a novice is tempramental. My forte is bolt action rifles, give me a .303 jungle carbine and I am happy and in my prime!



posted on Sep, 18 2006 @ 09:40 AM
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Originally posted by nos_482
The SA-80 is shocking, I've heard bad reviews from friends in the forces about this joke of a gun, but suprisingly its later variations SA-80A1 is a bit of an improvement; granted this gun will also have a fit in any weather other than British (so thats any weather other than light drizzle, inc. sunshine!)

I will say, though, a good carbine aught to be the M4 carbine, easy to use and modify appropriately. A little tempramental, but then again any weapon in the hands of a novice is tempramental. My forte is bolt action rifles, give me a .303 jungle carbine and I am happy and in my prime!

??
Which "SA-80" do you mean?
The LSW? The L-85? Or the Cadet GP L-98?

BTW just a little note...the L85A1 is the original rifle so I doubt that it can be an improvement of itself...



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 03:16 PM
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I've spoken to my friend and he says that the rifle he used was the SA80A1/A2 = L85A1/A2, he's also used L86 (LSW); and I was a little harsh in saying that it was shocking. I'm a big bolt action fan rather than an assault rifle guy so I'm a little biased in my opinion. My friend said that the SA-80 wasn't as 100% reliable, so my 'shocking' comment was a little out of place.

I apologise Devilwasp, I meant no disrespect.



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 04:32 PM
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Originally posted by nos_482
I've spoken to my friend and he says that the rifle he used was the SA80A1/A2 = L85A1/A2, he's also used L86 (LSW); and I was a little harsh in saying that it was shocking. I'm a big bolt action fan rather than an assault rifle guy so I'm a little biased in my opinion. My friend said that the SA-80 wasn't as 100% reliable, so my 'shocking' comment was a little out of place.

I apologise Devilwasp, I meant no disrespect.

I meant not to snap, I just dont like people mocking an "ok" rifle, I agree though bolt action is a good way to go. I've used the cadet target rifle which is really a single shot L-96, bolt action is very good.



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