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posted on Sep, 7 2006 @ 05:18 PM
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I am a supporter of the 9/11 truth movement . I have been actively trying to spread the word about sites like st911.or, killtown etc.

On a different forum where I was defending my views that I believe Al qaeda were not behind the attacks I was met with following video:

video.google.com...

It sems to show the fire weaken the structure and in turn cause the building to collapse. The guy who posted sincerely believes that that is all the proof he needs that it was the planes and subsequent fires which led to the towers collapse.

Is this film genuine?
How can I possibly counter this visual argument?

Would appreciate any replies.




posted on Sep, 7 2006 @ 05:30 PM
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First, that video is mislabelled. That's WTC2, not WTC1.

Second, that's the corner of WTC2 from which the bright molten metal was flowing. This is what Professor Jones believes is evidence of a thermite reaction taking place there, near where a corner box column would have been, if it were not severed by the jet impact.

Realize that if structural integrity were lost from an incendiary like thermite upon the columns, the collapse initiation would look totally natural and explosion-free. This is because structural members would no longer be able to support their loads because of other critical columns within the building being severed by the incendiary. Loads would be transferred and become unbearable for the remaining columns. This would also be virtually silent amidst everything else going on, as opposed to HE's being detonated.

If there was any visual evidence of heat-related failures within the building, we would have seen plenty of it well before the collapse actually took place. Evidence of buckled columns on this building in particular is slim to none, let alone evidence of sufficient buckling to account for any initiation from heat-related failures alone.



posted on Sep, 7 2006 @ 05:33 PM
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I can promise you this isnt a 'saying one thing but meaning another'
type of post, I am interested to know what other more knowledgeable
members would do in my situation.
I also do not want to come across the wrong way, its not about winning an argument or my point of view prevailing over someone else's, I feel each time someone challenges me on my opinions on 9/11 that I should be able to provide them with some sort of web based link or resource which they simply cannot deny, however I have sadly found that people 'google' it and would rather believe popular mechanics and other such disinformation sites.
How do you convince those who refuse to see anything other than the
official story?



posted on Sep, 7 2006 @ 05:34 PM
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Originally posted by bsbray11
First, that video is mislabelled. That's WTC2, not WTC1.

Second, that's the corner of WTC2 from which the bright molten metal was flowing. This is what Professor Jones believes is evidence of a thermite reaction taking place there, near where a corner box column would have been, if it were not severed by the jet impact.

Realize that if structural integrity were lost from an incendiary like thermite upon the columns, the collapse initiation would look totally natural and explosion-free. This is because structural members would no longer be able to support their loads because of other critical columns within the building being severed by the incendiary. Loads would be transferred and become unbearable for the remaining columns. This would also be virtually silent amidst everything else going on, as opposed to HE's being detonated.

If there was any visual evidence of heat-related failures within the building, we would have seen plenty of it well before the collapse actually took place. Evidence of buckled columns on this building in particular is slim to none, let alone evidence of sufficient buckling to account for any initiation from heat-related failures alone.


Thank you for that.



posted on Sep, 7 2006 @ 06:19 PM
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gordonssite.tripod.com...

That small piece of the event has to be placed into context. You can't take one small piece of the evidence and extrapolate it to the whole event without acknowledging the remainder of the evidence. Tell him to look at the narrative in the above link, and see how this and the many other pieces of evidence fit the narrative and are documented by photographs and other evidence. Tell him to take it to whoever he knows that might be in a position to rip it to shreds.

Gordon.



posted on Sep, 7 2006 @ 06:26 PM
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Originally posted by gordonross
gordonssite.tripod.com...

That small piece of the event has to be placed into context. You can't take one small piece of the evidence and extrapolate it to the whole event without acknowledging the remainder of the evidence. Tell him to look at the narrative in the above link, and see how this and the many other pieces of evidence fit the narrative and are documented by photographs and other evidence. Tell him to take it to whoever he knows that might be in a position to rip it to shreds.

Gordon.


I have never come across that site before Gordon, from a quick look, it seems to be extremely detailed.
Thanks a lot.



posted on Sep, 7 2006 @ 06:49 PM
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Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
and listen to others,
even to the dull and the ignorant;
they too have their story.

Desiderata



I know how it feels to try and wake those that are sleeping. It can be as if you're bashing your head into the walls at times.

Just know that you are doing what you can to help this place, and try not to get too upset with those that refuse to see.

My prayers are with you,



posted on Sep, 7 2006 @ 08:34 PM
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Hi pmexplorer:

PM >> It seems to show the fire weaken the structure and in turn cause the building to collapse. The guy who posted sincerely believes that that is all the proof he needs that it was the planes and subsequent fires which led to the towers collapse.

PM’s Question >> Is this film genuine?

Yes. The visual effects of the video say nothing about the temperature (2600 decrees Celcius = www.abovetopsecret.com... ) and time required to cause catastrophic failure of the concrete/steel supporting structures of the Twin Towers.

PM >> How can I possibly counter this visual argument?

If you are going to solve this mystery successfully, then you must be willing to take several steps back and view the larger picture. How many of this type of steel/concrete reinforced buildings have collapsed due to fire in US history? Exactly three. The Twin Towers and Building 7. Take a few minutes and look at the video of the Building 7 collapse . . .

www.wtc7.net...

Did you notice how the 47 story structure fell evenly and collapsed upon itself with pyrotechnic precision? The floors feel 100 meters in 4.7 seconds, which is almost a second faster than if the walls simply disappeared. In other words, an extreme vacuum environment was created inside the building, which actually sucked the structure to the ground. A localized fire of a much longer duration and with almost unimaginable intensity would cause catastrophic failure ONLY in those areas in direct proximity to the heat source. What caused the supporting columns and beams far away from the fire to suddenly collapse evenly across the ‘entire’ building? Each of the supporting members required a minimum amount of force to cause them all to fail simultaneously. Watch the video again from different angles and realize that the top floors did not fall first in pancake fashion. This evidence represents the smoking gun telling everyone the ‘real’ terrorists are still at large.

Osama Bin Laden and his cronies never possessed the resources to carry out the terror of 9/11. In case you are unaware, the factions in the Middle East stay busy fighting among themselves with little or no aspirations of attacking America at all. Their so called ‘terror cells’ are here to siphon off American wealth through scheming and trickery, and corrupt our children with their Islamic Propaganda. They take advantage of the current environment of multiculturalism associated with illegal immigration (invasion), lawlessness and gang activities testing the resources of our local communities. The Jihadists do not plan to kill Americans with bombs, gas or disease. They have infiltrated our ranks and intent to take over this country through our children with a carefully prepared plan and as much time as they need; like a parasite devouring its host.

Send your debating opponent a link to this video:

video.google.com...

The same people who paid Defense Department Contractors to carry out 9/11 are using our politicians like puppets to bring in their New World Order; father (Bush) like son (Bush).

GL,

Terral



posted on Sep, 7 2006 @ 08:58 PM
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Originally posted by mrwupy

Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
and listen to others,
even to the dull and the ignorant;
they too have their story.

Desiderata



I know how it feels to try and wake those that are sleeping. It can be as if you're bashing your head into the walls at times.

Just know that you are doing what you can to help this place, and try not to get too upset with those that refuse to see.

My prayers are with you,



I appreciate that, your right you would feel like your bashing your head against a wall but I will persist. I think the further away we get from the event itself the harder it will get, I am hopeful something positive will happen and that those of us seeking the truth will be given the push needed to continue our fight for justice.



posted on Sep, 7 2006 @ 09:22 PM
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Hi Terral and welcome to ATS i notice you are a new member, im sure you will
enjoy your time here like I have. I have become enlightened to the truth in the past few months. Thanks for your reply to my post, I am familiar with the links you supplied, loose change is a resource that tends to have as many fans as it has those who wish to dismiss it. As regards the NWO thats something I'm still despite my time here, on the fence about, I have even noted some of the Moderators have very differing views.
The mystery of WTC 7 is hard to escape from, it is literally a 'smoking gun'.
The sad part is that we can all see the inaccuracies and problems with the official report, we can read experts views and watch extremely detailed videos like 'In plane sight' yet I wonder are we any nearer to exposing the real perpetrators.



posted on Sep, 7 2006 @ 09:35 PM
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i think you need to gather more information to get some truth or sense out of this all, for me to see the video brings back memories. i think most of us that day were shocked. everytime i see the video of the two towars falling i get emotional. the day that it happened i got a phone call to turn the tv to the news. i was drinking beer at the time. i turned the tv on and was shocked, i couldent beleive it was real i showed everyone else there at the house, we were all shocked.



posted on Sep, 8 2006 @ 02:24 PM
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Hi PMexplorer:

PM >> Hi Terral and welcome to ATS i notice you are a new member, im sure you will enjoy your time here like I have.

Yes, thank you very much; brand new in fact. : 0 )

PM >> I have become enlightened to the truth in the past few months. Thanks for your reply to my post, I am familiar with the links you supplied, loose change is a resource that tends to have as many fans as it has those who wish to dismiss it.

The truth of this matter reveals an enemy much more insidious and powerful than even the most hardcore conspiracy theorist is willing to acknowledge. Let us agree that you have been enlightened to certain aspects of ‘the truth’ on this 9/11 topic. The false belief that you have completely envisioned the bigger picture means you have become complacent enough to let down your guard.

PM >> As regards the NWO thats something I'm still despite my time here, on the fence about, I have even noted some of the Moderators have very differing views.

The first book I recommend for those truly seeking the truth on these topics is “None Dare Call It Conspiracy” by former Congressman Gary Allen (1971). The third chapter appears here online ( kamron.com... ). Most everyone here probably continues to believe that the Federal Reserve is a branch of our Federal Government. The fact is this central bank is privately owned by the likes of people with names like Rothschild, Warburg, Morgan, etc.. Where does all the money go when the prime rate jumps from 1 to 7 percent? Have you ever heard of an enlarging slush fund where our money collects in times of higher interest rates? No, because no such fund exists. The FED siphons off the wealth of our economy by charging us interest on our own money and their ‘profits’ are dispersed to their international banking shareholders. These power brokers financed both sides of WW1 and WW2, as they will also finance WW3 in the near future. The three hundred or so richest families on earth control the USA by proxy through the Council On Foreign Relations, the Trilateral Commission (since 1973), opinion molding through our Media, etc.. One well known concentration of their leadership is bound up in the “Bilderberger Group” ( www.the7thfire.com... ), which in reality is a smokescreen operation for our true nemesis working behind the scenes. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld is one example of an active Bilderberger working inside our Federal Government. Bush Administration members with NWO connections are listed here ( www.freenewport.com... ).

Your greatest weapon in this search for the truth is developed by coming to recognize the smokescreen tactics of our enemy, as they utilize these agencies to further their Globalist Agenda. Once you begin to see through their trickery over a period, their fingerprints become more visible to the naked eye. Americans are being systematically dumbed-downed, desensitized and mentally conditioned to make an emotional tradeoff between ‘security’ and personal freedoms and liberties. These Globalists are working overtime through our politicians and media to instill an environment of lawlessness and chaos in the USA, so they can swoop in and become our ‘Savior’ at the end of the day. Our Federal Government failed to react in a timely fashion to Katrina, because that catastrophic event helped to foster their cause. The current invasion from Mexico is another example of lawlessness running literally rampant upon our once great land, as every form of sickness, disease, criminal and terrorist simply waltzes across our border. Mr. Bush is doing everything to give the amnesty magnet as much power as possible, so the human flood of illegals continue pouring in.

Please forgive, but any forum limiting posts to 4000 characters is not asking for very much. The remainder must go unread . . .

GL,

Terral



posted on Sep, 8 2006 @ 09:10 PM
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Terral,

Why not simply do what others do and create a 'reply' post to follow on your
thread.
Your post above fascinated me, I am just about to browse the links you provided.
The information you supplied is quite in depth, its quite apparent that you
have spent a lot of time researching what you speak of.
Im interested to know if you frequented any similar sites before you stumbled (fortunately) on ATS?

Also what are your views on the events of 9/11?

all the best

pmexp



posted on Sep, 9 2006 @ 08:43 AM
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Hi PM:

PM >> Why not simply do what others do and create a 'reply' post to follow on your thread.

Other Boards where I hold membership ban members for ‘double posting.’ While I have seen limits of 10,000 and 25,000 characters, the limit of a mere 4,000 seems insane. A serious writer takes that long to clear his throat. : 0 ).

PM >> Your post above fascinated me, I am just about to browse the links you provided. The information you supplied is quite in depth, its quite apparent that you have spent a lot of time researching what you speak of.

Yes. My uncle handed me a copy of “None Dare Call It Conspiracy” in the mid 1970’s and I became aware of Rothschild’s Globalist intentions, while still very much a youth.

PM >> Im interested to know if you frequented any similar sites before you stumbled (fortunately) on ATS?

Most of my work includes writing Bible commentary on topics from Genesis to Revelation for Debate/Discussion Boards. However, it has become apparent that America is positioned upon a slippery slope of slavery to the NWO gaining momentum through their campaign of sowing lawlessness around the world. I am here to help raise the awareness of fellow Americans to the identity of our true nemesis by dispelling some of the MYTHS.

PM >> Also what are your views on the events of 9/11?

The events of 9/11 represent self inflicted wounds creating the illusion that Islamic Jihadists were attacking the hub and symbol of the Free World to set the stage for Rothchild’s Master Plan to become interwoven into America’s ‘war on terror.’ WTC 1, 2 and 7 were wired for collapse through controlled pyrotechnic detonation weeks before the actual 9/11 events took place. The Pentagon Missile Attack Hoax was planned long before the remodeling project to beef up the building was ever started to again give the illusion that Osama and his cronies were responsible. Our enemy depended upon the emotional response of the principals involved to hide the true facts, along with their propaganda still heralded by their coconspirators through the politicians/media to this day. However, anyone with an open mind can see that WTC 7 collapsed evenly upon itself for no ‘apparent’ reason whatsoever. Have you ever seen one picture of Flight 77 fuselage debris anywhere near the Pentagon? Heh . . . No.

A careful gathering of all the evidence reveals that our enemy is being reckless by taking many risks that make no sense at all. Why is the Bush Administration failing to protect our borders by enforcing current immigration/employment laws already on the books AND trying to influence Congress to create more laws they also intend to ignore, when these areas fall under the jurisdiction of the newly created “Department of Homeland Security” they called into being? Again, this is a sign of reckless planning by our enemy, which serves to reveal that he is much closer to his goal than the majority even begins to realize. Our true nemesis feels bold and confident that his Globalist Agenda will be served, even though he has made a myriad of stupid mistakes; because Americans are far too gullible and stupid (in his mind) to catch him before it is too late!

Do you remember the story that the UN was making plans to tax Americans ( www.freedomlandusa.com... )? Heh. This is the NWO trying to raise his ugly head through his UN proxy, except his goal to mold American opinion in that direction never materialized. I expect the USA to continue misusing and overextending the military in police actions around the world, until we are forced to utilize UN forces for our own defense. THEN the UN will seek an avenue for Americans to ‘pay’ for their own defense with a 1 percent tax to start the ball rolling. Continued unrest in the Middle East is the stimulus for Mr. Bush’s refusal to even plan an exit strategy from the very beginning.

I will paste the remainder of my original reply above to the following post,

GL,

Terral



posted on Sep, 9 2006 @ 09:02 AM
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Hi again PM:

Terral Original >> Bush is doing everything to give the amnesty magnet as much power as possible, so the human flood of illegals continue pouring in . . .

How much smokescreen training is required for you to realize there is something terribly wrong with all three branches of our current Federal Government? We are up to our eyeballs in illegals down here in sunny Florida and none of our elected officials seem to care.

PM >> The mystery of WTC 7 is hard to escape from, it is literally a 'smoking gun'.

WTC 7 is the perfect example of just how stupid our enemies believe Americans to be in our present day. Anyone with an open mind can view the video and see this building was taken down intentionally using a series of charged detonations. Eyewitnesses testified that a series of ‘explosions’ took place inside Building 7 and the Twin Towers ‘before’ those buildings suffered catastrophic failure. The telephone records were sealed and kept secret to hide the truth that callers from inside the buildings were terrified over massive ‘explosions’ literally removing the flesh of those in direct proximity. The true terrorists required access to sensitive areas in all three buildings for two to three weeks ‘prior’ to 9/11 in order to prepare the environment for their desired outcome. One of the saddest revelations for me personally came from the “Loose Change” video that the massive storehouse of gold under the Twin Towers was being removed via dump trucks right up to the final moments of 9/11. A lot of planning was required to remove so much gold and the actual process MUST have started long before the first plane struck. However, someone had to warn the drivers of the last few trucks to leave everything, because the keys were left in the ignition and the driver side doors were not even closed. Who warned those drivers that the buildings were about to collapse in order to save their lives, and why were our brave firefighters and policemen allowed to perish? A large proportion of Americans will never see ‘the truth’ of this matter, because nothing you or I can ever say will prepare them to hear it.

PM >> The sad part is that we can all see the inaccuracies and problems with the official report, we can read experts views and watch extremely detailed videos like 'In plane sight' yet I wonder are we any nearer to exposing the real perpetrators.

The name of this Board is “abovetopsecret.com” and believe it or not there are money manipulators and power brokers out there very much “abovethelaw.com.” The American Dream is becoming more and more a nightmare for our posterity with each passing day right before our very eyes. Prepare yourself to be surrounded by millions and millions of ‘have nots’ ready, willing and well capable of taking everything you have in this world. Home invasions will escalate along with police officer killings and every form of lawlessness you can imagine, then ask yourself if the identity of the ‘real perpetrators’ is really going to matter one way or the other? The truly sad part is that the real enemy will be the one standing there as our Savior, i.e. "One World Government, One World Religion, One World Economy" = NWO. The same people you are trying to convince about our enemy will be the first to embrace the NWO. This situation is very similar to the “Invasion Of The Body Snatchers,” and most everyone is already sound asleep! Practically the entire USA and the world are running after the MYTH that Osama and his band of Jihadists are responsible for 9/11. Maybe we should stop and wonder if America is truly worthy to continue living as free men, OR if their destiny is to live under the auspices of the coming NWO. The Proverb says,

"A little sleep, a little slumber, A little folding of the hands to rest"-- Your poverty will come in like a vagabond And your need like an armed man.” Proverbs 6:10+11.

GL in visualizing 'the truth' that is certainly 'out there,'

Terral



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