Masonic charities are a PR ploy to hide real intentions

Originally posted by In nothing we trust
All I get from you masons is, 'where's your evidence'.
'Gotta have evidence.'

Well, perhaps if you didn't post such bold and baseless accusations, or if we were permitted to call you an outright liar, we wouldn't be limited to countering with that sort of thing...

Originally posted by In nothing we trust
It wouldn't really bother me at all hobbes, if you wanted to bash christains .

You just don't get it... I'm not going to bash anyone's ideology. As long as they don't try to hammer on mine (or anyone else's), we're ok. Tolerance is good.

Originally posted by Beelzebubba
Smith states that he was not a Mason but had become familiar with the grips and used this for his own ends (A cowan?)

It's been stated before a few times... those modes of recognition are really too vague to be just tossed around... they're too subtle to really notice, and it's too easy to get a false positive.

On top of that, they've been leaked for generations.

Why would anyone assume another is a mason, just because of a handshake?

Is it possible for corrupt individuals within the Craft to abuse the channelling of funds for their own purposes?

I can't see how... diverting funds would require a vote among all brothers attending. So, either the story would have to be REALLY convincing, or else all brothers be in on it. And believe me, they NEVER all agree on anything.

All that said, it's a lot of effort for very little. Not that much cash flows through most lodges... enough to cover operating expenses and grand lodge dues, with a few thousand a year for charitable stuff.

Most of the donations we give are in labor... we produce child identification kits for nervous parents, we painted the local senior center, we fix meals for the local homeless center... stuff like that.

It's hard to claim diverting of funds when the currency is effort.

Originally posted by Beelzebubba

He said, "Very simply. You just pass it through the organization."

Is it possible for corrupt individuals within the Craft to abuse the channelling of funds for their own purposes?

Money laudering.

Yes, no doubt the masons are also using thier organization to lauder US tax dollars from bush's faith based inititive program to thier charities or whatever else, just to make themselves look better.

Talk about drawing a happy face on a pig.

[edit on 9-9-2006 by In nothing we trust]

Originally posted by In nothing we trust
Yes, no doubt the masons are also using thier organization to lauder US tax dollars from bush's faith based inititive program to thier charities or whatever else, just to make themselves look better.

Dude... you just made that up. That sort of thing is called *libel*.

We would not qualify for any funding under the initiative, as we are not a religion or sponsored by a religion.

Besides, as a non-profit organization, our records are public. If some such fishiness was going on, you'd be able to clearly point it out.

Originally posted by Hobbes
That sort of thing is called *libel*.

We would not qualify for any funding under the initiative, as we are not a religion or sponsored by a religion.

Gosh Hobbes you are even stupider than I first thought. Tell you what you have your secret society lawyers contact me and we can just air out the entire thing in court. Oh wait a minute we'll need to do a though background check of every judge and lawyer in the legal system just to make sure that they don't rule in your favor.

Maybe masonry is not a religion, per se, but the masons are part of the jeudeo-christain belief complex.

How about if we settle the dispute, like gentlemen, with a duel. You know with pistols.



[edit on 10-9-2006 by In nothing we trust]

Originally posted by Hobbes
We would not qualify for any funding under the initiative, as we are not a religion or sponsored by a religion.

Oh look what I found in the federal tax code.

The Senate Committee on Finance explained the purpose of IRC 501(c)(10) as follows:

[A] new category of exemption for fraternal beneficiary associations is set forth which applies to fraternal organizations operating under the lodge system where the fraternal activities are exclusively religious, charitable, or educational in nature and no insurance is provided for the members. The committee believes that it is appropriate to provide a separate exempt category for those fraternal beneficiary associations (such as the Masons) which do not provide insurance for their members. This more properly describes the different types of fraternal associations. S. Rep. No. 552, 91st Cong., 1st Sess. 72 (1969).

www.irs.gov...=%22501%20(c)%208%22

Not only do I think that the masons qualify for federal tax dollars under Bush's faith based inititive program, but I think that the masons are indeed working hand in hand with the federal government to lauder federal tax dollars to specific groups of thier choosing.

If the masons have accepted federal funds, under the faith based inititive grant program it a case of racketeering and it also sets the groundwork for a case of extortion from the american tax payer.

Guidance to Faith-Based and Community Organizations on Partnering with the Federal Government (a guide to the legal responsibilities associated with the receipt of Federal funds)

www.whitehouse.gov...

[edit on 10-9-2006 by In nothing we trust]

Originally posted by In nothing we trust
Gosh Hobbes you are even stupider than I first thought.

Verbal assualt on a member is not tolerated, consider that before cliaming yourself a gentleman.


Some peoples children...

Originally posted by In nothing we trust
Not only do I think that the masons qualify for federal tax dollars under Bush's faith based inititive program

Your passage states that fraternal, charitable organizations qualify as a different class for tax-exemption. How does that make us religious-based, and thus allow us to qualify?

but I think that the masons are indeed working hand in hand with the federal government to lauder federal tax dollars to specific groups of thier choosing.

Again, you're working off of a premise you just made up. You have no proof of it. And in fact, we can counter any claim you make - as a non-profit organization, our financial records are public record.

If the masons have accepted federal funds, under the faith based inititive grant program it a case of racketeering and it also sets the groundwork for a case of extortion from the american tax payer.

No. If the masons have accepted federal funds, under the faith-based initiative grant program, it is a case of FBI guidelines being established, the masons applying, being accepted, and receiving funds. Period. That's all you could possibly prove, with your claims. That, too, would be a matter of public record.

How do you jump to your libelous claim of racketeering? You haven't indicated any actual wrong-doing.

Guidance to Faith-Based and Community Organizations on Partnering with the Federal Government (a guide to the legal responsibilities associated with the receipt of Federal funds)

the law is to do as you will, yes?

NO
see below:

The Wiccan Rede
(Full Version)

Bide within the Law you must, in perfect Love and perfect Trust.
Live you must and let to live, fairly take and fairly give.

For tread the Circle thrice about to keep unwelcome spirits out.
To bind the spell well every time, let the spell be said in rhyme.

Light of eye and soft of touch, speak you little, listen much.
Honor the Old Ones in deed and name,
let love and light be our guides again.

Deosil go by the waxing moon, chanting out the joyful tune.
Widdershins go when the moon doth wane,
and the werewolf howls by the dread wolfsbane.

When the Lady's moon is new, kiss the hand to Her times two.
When the moon rides at Her peak then your heart's desire seek.

Heed the North winds mighty gale, lock the door and trim the sail.
When the Wind blows from the East, expect the new and set the feast.

When the wind comes from the South, love will kiss you on the mouth.
When the wind whispers from the West, all hearts will find peace and rest.

Nine woods in the Cauldron go, burn them fast and burn them slow.
Birch in the fire goes to represent what the Lady knows.

Oak in the forest towers with might, in the fire it brings the God's
insight. Rowan is a tree of power causing life and magick to flower.

Willows at the waterside stand ready to help us to the Summerland.
Hawthorn is burned to purify and to draw faerie to your eye.

Hazel-the tree of wisdom and learning adds its strength to the bright fire burning.
White are the flowers of Apple tree that brings us fruits of fertility.

Grapes grow upon the vine giving us both joy and wine.
Fir does mark the evergreen to represent immortality seen.

Elder is the Lady's tree burn it not or cursed you'll be.
Four times the Major Sabbats mark in the light and in the dark.

As the old year starts to wane the new begins, it's now Samhain.
When the time for Imbolc shows watch for flowers through the snows.

When the wheel begins to turn soon the Beltane fires will burn.
As the wheel turns to Lamas night power is brought to magick rite.

Four times the Minor Sabbats fall use the Sun to mark them all.
When the wheel has turned to Yule light the log the Horned One rules.

In the spring, when night equals day time for Ostara to come our way.
When the Sun has reached it's height time for Oak and Holly to fight.

Harvesting comes to one and all when the Autumn Equinox does fall.
Heed the flower, bush, and tree by the Lady blessed you'll be.

Where the rippling waters go cast a stone, the truth you'll know.
When you have and hold a need, harken not to others greed.

With a fool no season spend or be counted as his friend.
Merry Meet and Merry Part bright the cheeks and warm the heart.

Mind the Three-fold Laws you should three times bad and three times good.
When misfortune is enow wear the star upon your brow.

Be true in love this you must do unless your love is false to you.

These Eight words the Rede fulfill:

"An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will"

please note the first 4 words.

How about if we settle the dispute, like gentlemen, with a duel. You know with pistols.

I have a better idea, with much less blood shed ( although I rather doubt you could hit a barn wall
standing inside the barn). You could have a spelling contest.


[edit on 11-9-2006 by stalkingwolf]

Originally posted by Hobbes

Originally posted by In nothing we trust
Not only do I think that the masons qualify for federal tax dollars under Bush's faith based inititive program

Your passage states that fraternal, charitable organizations qualify as a different class for tax-exemption. How does that make us religious-based, and thus allow us to qualify?

but I think that the masons are indeed working hand in hand with the federal government to lauder federal tax dollars to specific groups of thier choosing.

Again, you're working off of a premise you just made up. You have no proof of it. And in fact, we can counter any claim you make - as a non-profit organization, our financial records are public record.

If the masons have accepted federal funds, under the faith based inititive grant program it a case of racketeering and it also sets the groundwork for a case of extortion from the american tax payer.

No. If the masons have accepted federal funds, under the faith-based initiative grant program, it is a case of FBI guidelines being established, the masons applying, being accepted, and receiving funds. Period. That's all you could possibly prove, with your claims. That, too, would be a matter of public record.

How do you jump to your libelous claim of racketeering? You haven't indicated any actual wrong-doing.

(edit - fixed BBCode)

Originally posted by stalkingwolf
NO
see below:

The Wiccan Rede

Regardless, these presented rules are not Masonic tenets.

Originally posted by In nothing we trust

Not only do I think that the masons qualify for federal tax dollars under Bush's faith based inititive program, but I think that the masons are indeed working hand in hand with the federal government to lauder federal tax dollars to specific groups of thier choosing.

Former director Jim Towey admitted in 2004 that "no direct federal grants from his program had gone to a non-Christian religious group."



Source

1. Fraternal organizations are not eligible to participate in Bush's program.

2. The stuff you posted about being tax exempt has nothing to do with receiving federal funds through Bush' program. Since we are a non-profit organization, of course we're tax exempt. You don't have to pay income tax if you have no income.

3. Freemasonry, and especially Scottish Rite, must oppose the Bush program anyway since it violates the separation of church and state. In the Southern Jurisdiction, the candidate must affirm in writing that he supports "the complete separation of church and state, and opposes all attempts to appropriate public monies for private or sectarian purposes".

so no takers on the spelling contest huh?

Is it possible to ignore certain users? Like a setting that automatically erases from my view all posts by people i choose?

Guys, theres no hope for INWT, he's one of the hardcore. Kinda like MrNecros. Sooner or later he'll be saying we raped his garden gnomes while we threw elephant feces at his grandmother while she was rolling around on her wheelchair.

Anything you say he will just automatically come back around with his idiotic idealogical spin. Sometimes, like in these cases, I wish we actually WERE as powerful as people claim, and I'll let you guess why.

[edit on 13-9-2006 by yin_yang]

[edit on 13-9-2006 by yin_yang]

Originally posted by In nothing we trust
Oh wait a minute you guys only believe the old testement, just like the jews.


[edit on 7-9-2006 by In nothing we trust]

Dude,you really need to start studying before you make comments.That's not even remotely true.

Is it possible to ignore certain users?

Yes look to the bottom left of the persons post you should see an Ignore this user
button.

Originally posted by stalkingwolf

"An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will"

please note the first 4 words.

[edit on 11-9-2006 by stalkingwolf]

How can you NOT harm others when you do what you want? I interpret do what ye will as being eternally selfish. Most of my experience with selfish people is that they hurt others either knowingly or unknowingly.

Originally posted by yin_yang
Sometimes, like in these cases, I wish we actually WERE as powerful as people claim, and I'll let you guess why.

Would you sacrifice me to shut me up?

The Sacrifice of Isaac


Sacrifice me once and I'm the fool, sacrifice me twice and you're the fool.




[edit on 14-9-2006 by In nothing we trust]

How can you NOT harm others when you do what you want?

It is quite easy for some of us.

I interpret do what ye will as being eternally selfish.

that is asyou say YOUR intrepretation. Ih however you think on it a bit
you might see the similarity between do as you will and do unto others.

It's not as free and open as you are interpreting it to be. "Do what you will" is pretty much checked and balanced by other stipulations to that law. It's actually just as restrictive as any other religous law in the end.