Chinese armoured Vehicles - Third Generation, page 2


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ATS Members have flagged this thread 3 times


reply posted on 9-9-2006 @ 08:27 AM by donwhite

posted by jihad213

Yeah, you only listen to your own twisted ideas? I REALLY hope your quality comment was a joke. Why did the Chinese cars FAIL the euro crash test ratings? They have cheap labor which is why they have the market cornered. I think more car companies will use China in the coming years, but not now as they think it will ruin there image - which is rightfully so. Cheap labor is the ONLY reason they have the market cornered.
[Edited by Don W]


Crash-worthiness must be the most difficult challenge automotive engineers face today. I have only seen 2 pictures of Chinese cars as they came off the assembly line. They were dated in their design. I suspect China is unwilling to invest the $10 to $25 billion necessary to produce a primo car from the git go, and is taking the slower, less capital intensive way. Look at the motorcycles China is exporting. Parallel that with how Japan got into the personal transportation industry. Ask the Germans and British how to get out of the motorcycle business. “Cheap” is a relative term, but to many Chinese, it is a good wage. The 300 million Chinese involved in the post 1977 industrial explosion are envied by the 1 billion who are not. Envy is not a good human trait. Car parts have been made in China for 15 years. AC compressors. PS pumps. WS wiper motors. Electric window and seat motors. And etc. I would not be surprised to learn the car you drive is 20% China made parts. PS. The capital for China is coming from the West. I’ve stopped using the disparaging short-hand for the Chinese government, ‘Chi-coms’ and now call them ‘Chi-caps.’


I can't wait for the first Chinese dealer to go up in LA, I will protest the HELL out of it. Add to the trade deficit with complete garbage.


I’ll bet you are a ‘Free Market’ fan, Mr J.


posted by Chinawhite

I think donwhite is referring to the Kilo subs bought from Russia. The two subs he might be referring to are the earlier 877 model which were bought beforehand. I think his information is a bit old. Although I don’t know how to explain the WW2 reference.


Yes, C/W, you have brought light to darkness. Actually, I have the impression the Russians first used captured German WW2 subs as a template. The Germans had a large sub that did not get into production until towards the end of the war and there were not many examples. Perhaps it’s the “877?” In any case, the cost to make the subs China has is trivial compared to the cost of America’s subs. A few hundred million versus a couple billion. Which is one more example of the United States being whipsawed by its perceived enemies.


posted by stumason

He stated Europe, so if he meant Russia, he should have said. I was trying to stick up for the Chinese; he seemed to be quite condescending about Subs they were buying. If I misread his intentions, I apologize, but diesel electric subs have come a long way since 1945. [Edited by Don W]


For China’s purposes, WW2 diesel electrics work fine. For intimidating nations half way round the world, they would be duds. No mirv’d ballistic missiles. No super stealth. Repeating, the pro-war Administrations will use those old type subs as a reason to build more and more expensive US subs. Perhaps that is a subtle Oriental way of waging war? Challenge the palooka’s ego. He shoots himself in the foot. Then he’s helpless. That’s what I call ‘fight smart’ instead of our approach which is ‘fight dumb.’


The J-10 is clearly copied off western technology, for example and that’s the first thing that springs to mind.



I don’t know that. The wind blows the same in Chinese wind tunnels as it does in Western wind tunnels. Engineering is pretty much the same around the world. It comes down to objectives and choices how to get there. The story linked below points out the J-10 will be highly competitive in the “world arms market” and very competitive with the F16 and its derivatives.

Competition. Free market. If the J-10 will do 90% of what the F16 will do at 1/3rd the cost, not to speak of lower competence level of maintenance, then which will sub-Saharan dictators be more likely to buy?

See for excellent review of the J-10,
www.aeronautics.ru...


[edit on 9/9/2006 by donwhite]



reply posted on 9-9-2006 @ 10:10 PM by chinawhite
Originally posted by donwhite
Do you have any idea how many subs of each class the Chinese have in service?


Known number of nuclear submarines are

5x Han Class SSN



1x Xia class SSBN




There is also a picture circulating the internet of what is claimed to be chinas new 094 class SSBN. 12~16 lanuch tubes and appears to share a similar conning tower as chinas yuan class submarine. We'll just assume that it has 533mm torpedo tubes instead of the larger 650mm ones

Here is a comparison, it may or may not be a photoshoped picture. The green parts are similar and the red areas are different




Larger Version


Here is a pictorial guide to chinas submarine force
www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 9-9-2006 by chinawhite]


reply posted on 11-9-2006 @ 08:34 AM by donwhite

posted by chinawhite

“ . . no submarine was sunk. The five built can still be spotted (401-405) . .
noisy when first arrived but most have finished the second mid-life upgrade which dramatically changed . . modern FCS and the ability to fire missiles under water. [Edited by Don W]



America’s media is moribund. Waiting for a decent burial. Example? The new Katie Curric on CBS Evening News had Rush Limbaugh featured in its 2nd show. Once a hypocritical drug addict, but now a reformed but unrepentant drug addict, Limbaugh hasn’t had a new thought for a decade. Fred Friendly and Edward Murrow would roll over in their respective graves to learn CBS was kowtowing to the Far Right Wing of American politics. As a Chinese person you know what “kowtow’ means but for my American friends, let me remind them to “kowtow” in old China meant to lay your head on the floor and the Emperor would position his foot on your head, so that if he believed you had betrayed him of even disappointed him, he could easily crush your skull. That was a position of extreme humility. My only consolation vis a vis Limbaugh is that Roy Black reputedly charged him $5 million, cash, up front. Plus expenses. It proved to be money well spent. Always go first class when you can. Ops, I digress.

OK, back to China. Let me restate my case. Since 1949, when the Chinese Communist Party under Mao Zed ong won the mainland, China has not invaded any of its neighbors. There have been “heated” border disputes with the USSR and Vietnam. Those are now resolved and never constituted an “invasion” by either of the disputants. China itself is invasion proof. The US planned to use 1.5 million soldiers and marines to invade Japan in 1945. We had 13 million men and women under arms on VJ-Day. Any serious invasion of mainland China would require at least 10 X that number. An impossibility. The US mainland is similarly situated. So that kind of irrational thinking can be ended.

I pose all of this to frame my question, What is the nature of the ‘threat” we in American are foreseeing from China? In 1999, China resolved the two similar issues over Hong Kong and Macao. I think everyone knows there is but one remaining and outstanding issue from China’s perspective. It is Taiwan.

I am not well founded, anthropologically speaking, and so I’m not able to address the issue how the Formosans - we called them that - I call them that to delineate a time line - feel towards reunification with mainland China. I assume the 1949 exodus of Nationalist Chinese - a political divide not an ethnicity divide - to the island of Taiwan where about 7 X their number were already in residence, have been absorbed into the general population. In other words, the old soldiers are all dead.

OTOH, Taiwan’s most recent election was described as the first truly democratic election. The Party gaining control of Taiwan is anti-unification. One can deduce that if the Party felt the necessity of taking a position, then the matter of re-unification is in fact a viable issue on Taiwan. The United States and more specifically the Seventh Fleet, is a wild card that its mere presence seems to bring predicable results. Our fleet has been in the Taiwan Straits since 1949, nearly 60 years. Two generations. There are few Americans alive today who have any personal recollections of the frequent artillery exchanges on Qemoy and Matsu islands following 1949. After China joined the nuclear club, the exchanges ended. Which makes one wonder which side was provoking the exchanges. Of course, over here it was accepted ritual that the evil Chinese Communists always started the trouble and us good guys were merely responding in self defense. Does this have a familiar ring?

Which brings me back, somewhat circuitously to Chinese weapons and armored vehicles. All the old National Geographic pictures of Taiwan show it to be a large island filled with rice paddies. The new Chinese 8 wheel and 6 wheel armored cars or whatever you call them, would be well suited for combat on Taiwan, whereas, an M1A1 Abrams would be useless. So we have 3,000 tanks we can’t use, and China has a few hundred vehicles it can use for close support for its massive infantry. Because China has nukes, and the means - you guys say - to deliver them to at least Seattle and San Francisco, that mens the US will not defend Taiwan with nukes. (Another reason Iran wants nukes.) Whether China’s SSBNs can get close enough to our West Coast to make Chicago vulnerable is uncertain. I’m sure we have 2 or 3 killer subs assigned to each of the Chinese nuclear subs. And a “do not cross” line drawn around Hawaii.

It looks to me as if China is subtly getting itself positioned to make a move on Taiwan, perhaps in this decade? If the Dems win Congress on November 7, they will quickly neuter Bush43, as was Nixon, by cutting off his money supply, so re-unification could happen sooner than later.


reply posted on 12-9-2006 @ 07:03 PM by donwhite

posted by on_yur_6

Sounds like some have forgot the Chinese incursion into Korea that kicked our butts back to Pusan. I personally believe they will go for Taiwan when the USA is tied up with yet another conflict i.e. Iran or something similar.
[Edited by Don W]



Actually, OY6, it was the initial invasion by the North Koreans that pushed us down to the Pusan Perimeter. MacArthur then “blind sided” the NKs by his own Inchon landing, a very dubious undertaking that ended well. By late November, 1950, we had 95% destroyed the NK Army. China warned the US several times not to come within a security zone - about 20 miles - of the Yalu River, the NK-China boundary. MacArthur purposely ignored that warning. He wanted a war with China. We were still vicariously smarting from the1949 defeat of the Nationalists who fled to Taiwan. MacArthur wanted to use nuclear weapons to chastize the PRC and PLA. Truman said no, Mac “leaked” to the news, and Truman fired him. The PLA did push us back to below Seoul, but not too far. When we pushed them back to the present DMZ, the war was stalemated.


The USA will continue to help China fund their military by a growing trade deficient. I've seen the photos of their aircraft carrier and it looks very interesting. Back to topic, thanks for the photos again. They definitely have mobility in mind with their armor. [Edited by Don W]



The owners of America, I call them the R&Fs, are the ones who are moving American manufacturing to China. They become 49% partners with the PLA who is the 51% partner. Somebody once told me if you own less than half of a business, you are a lender, not a partner. In any case, it’s our choice.
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