The Secret Lives of Venus

The planet Venus has so much folklore surrounding it, that I figured Venus diserved her own thread to lay it all out for us. Ill start with some basic info, then you guys can add anything I leave out or just read it and move along.

Heres some basic info from Wiki:

en.wikipedia.org...
Venus is the second-closest planet to the Sun, orbiting it every 224.7 Earth days. After Earth's Moon, it is the brightest object in the night sky, reaching an apparent magnitude of -4.6. As an inferior planet from Earth it never appears to venture far from the Sun, and its elongation reaches a maximum of 47.8°. Venus reaches its maximum brightness shortly before sunrise or shortly after sunset, and is often referred to as the Morning Star or Evening Star.

A curious aspect of Venus' orbit and rotation periods is that the 584-day interval between successive close approaches to the Earth is almost exactly equal to five Venusian solar days.

Venus 'overtakes' the Earth every 584 days as it orbits the Sun. As it does so, it goes from being the 'Evening star', visible after sunset, to being the 'Morning star', visible before sunrise.

Orbit and retrograde:

Because the orbit of Venus is very regular she goes retrograde once every 18 months, and every 8 years returns to almost exactly the same place at the same time of year to repeat the cycle:

8 x 365 = 2920 days (8 years for the cycle to repeat in the same place in the zodiac)
5 x 584 = 2920 days (5 cycles of Venus, each taking 584 days to complete)

Venus and the pentagram.

It is an astronomical fact that Venus passes through five fixed points on the celestial sphere every 8 years with a striking accuracy of timing.

The five periods of Venus take eight years (When we round Venus' synodic period to a whole number 584, we can calculate that 584x5=2920 days, 2920/365 = 8 years). Take a particular point in a synodic revolution of Venus, for instance the greatest elongation east which places it in one zodiacal constellation. After an interval of 584 days (or nearly 19 months) later, greatest elongation east will take place again, this time almost seven constellations away. These events repeat every nineteen months and the result is that in eight years the eastern elongation point will return close to the point where it started - only about two degrees less - making a pentagram on the zodiac.

After that period, Venus, the Sun, the Earth and the stars are again in the same relative positions. It means that Venus, seen from the Earth, is in the same position with respect not only to the Sun, but also to the stars.

Heres a picture (a giant picture) of the zodiac with Venus' path: .
And heres a picture of Venus making its pentagram in the sky: .
And heres a drawing by Issac Newton based on Venus' orbit: .

Venus as Lucifer.

Ok, well Venus is also referred to as the Light Bearer or Light Bringer, the Morning and Evening Star, and even Lucifer which is latin for Light Bringer. The reason for these names is that Venus is closer to the sun than we are; so its orbit is nearer the sun and Venus always appears near the sun in the sky just before or after the sun rises or sets. (There are more names for Venus which I will get to in my next post.)

The Eclipse of Venus and 2012

en.wikipedia.org...
Venus' orbit is slightly inclined relative to the Earth's orbit; thus, when the planet passes between the Earth and the Sun, it usually does not cross the face of the Sun. However, transits of Venus do occur in pairs separated by eight years, at intervals of about 120 years, when the planet's inferior conjunction coincides with its presence in the plane of the Earth's orbit The most recent transit was in 2004; the next will be in 2012.

(www.near-death.com...)
Approximately every 121 years, the planet Venus transits in front of the sun (called a planetary "eclipse" or "occultation). This eclipse of Venus always happens in pairs. The first occurred on June 8th, 2004, and the second will take place on June 6, 2012.

Astrologers believe that this eight-year period in between eclipses of Venus represents a kind of “doorway” through which a global consciousness will begin to dominate humanity.

The year 2012 is a very important date because it is also the end of the Mayan calendar. Mayan prophecy states that a new consciousness will be born on the 2012 eclipse of Venus. The Mayan's associated the planet Venus with Quetzalcoatl, the Mayan messiah figure who lived in the year 40 AD and who is supposed to return again in 2012.

Link to picture of Venus Eclipse:

Venus as a Comet?!

"Venus was visible in full daylight and, while moving across the sky, rivaled the sun in brightness."

I was taking part in an interesting thread on the topic of venus being a comet in the space section of ATS. The people there dont see how it is possible, based on our current understanding, that Venus could have originated somewhere else besides its current location; which is right where it should be in "bode's law" of planetary spacing. However if we look at historical records, back when religion was history, we find many accounts of a global catastrophie including a hail of fire and a flood and a time when the sun stopped in the sky for several days. Of course the sun did not stop, but the earth's rotation was some how slowed down; possibly by the close passing of a large celestial body. And oddly enough on the other side of the world, instead of a long day, they had a long night... After these great and terrible events of history, a new star was born which joined the other visible stars, Mercury, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn.

Heres my post in that thread where I quote a couple of accounts of the comet and new star/planet: link.

[edit on 9/2/2006 by ViolatoR]

(Read the Venus as a comet post I linked to above, for more info.)

According to Histoire des nations civilisees du mexique:

The sun was attacked by Quetzal-cohuatl; after the disappearnace of this serpent-shaped heavenly body, the sun refused to shine, and during four days the world was deprived of its light; ... Thereafter, the snakelike body transformed itself into a great star. The star retained the name of Quetzal-cohuatl. This great and brilliant star appeared for the first time in the east.

According to Gesammelte Abhandlungen: Quetzal-cohuatl is the well-known name of the planet Venus

Venus as a Comet

A comet and its tail that come close enough to the earth to stop its rotation for a few days would be quite a sight to see. The comets tail would sweep across the earth because its always opposite the sun. The tail would snake around the sky and deposit whatever cosmic debree it was carrying along. This would cause fires from meteorites, seas turing red from the dust, the death of many people and animals, possibly huge earthquakes and tidal waves from the gravity and even some electrical exchanges between the comet and its tail, or the comet, tail and earth. The earth would be darkend for a long time from the ash and food would be scarce.

According to Immanuel Velikovsky who came up with the Venus/Comet theory, Venus caused disasters around the earth on two separate occasions separated by 52 years. Coincidentally enough, Quetzal-cohuatl (Venus) according to the Mayans stayed with them for 52 years. And the fourty years of wandering for the Jews, after the great cataclysm that plauged Egypt, plus the years during the time of Joshua when there was another great cataclysm, was about 52 years. During the second approach in the time of Joshua, it is said Joshua made the sun stand still in the sky; also, the walls of Jericho fell and according to studies at the sight there are signs of an earthquake.

A comet could have become entangled with earth like Lexell's comet wih jupiter which stayed in orbit from 1767 till 1779.

Venus and Typhon

Many historical figures appeared at the time of a great earthly cataclysm. Many of the gods or heros took the name of the comet that passed by. The name Quetzal-cohuatl not only is the heavenly body that caused the earth to stop spinning, but was also adopted to the "Jesus" type figure who showed up and healed people.

There are many similar stories of a Hero fighting with a Serpent (which would be the comet's tail most likely). Marduk vs Tiamat, Isis vs Seth, Vishnu or Krishna vs the Serpent, Ormuzd and Ahriman and of course Zeus and Typhon.

The king of egypt during the exodus was named after the comet Typhon (Typheus). And the egyptian shore of the red sea was called Typhonia.

Typhon sounds like Typhoon doesnt it? (Typhoons are tropical hurricanes.) The end of a world age was caused by Hurakan, the name of the physical nature of the darkness during the time of the Mayans. During the battle of Marduk and Tiamat, Marduk created an evil wind and hurricane. The Maories have Tawhiri-ma-tea and the Aboriginies have Tefaafanau. The Polynesians have Taafanua. Chinese Ty-fong, and Arabic Tyfoon and Tufan are hurricane and deluge.

"In the year of the world two thousand four hundred and fifty-three... a comet appeared which Pliny also mentioned in his second book. It was fiery, of irregular circular form, with a wrapped head; it was in the shape of a globe and was of terrible aspect. It is said that King Typhon ruled at that time in Egypt... Certain (authorities) assert that the comet was seen in Syria, Babylonia, India, in the sign of Capricorn in the form of a disc, at the time when the children of Israel advanced from Egypt toward the Promised Land, led on their way by the pillar of coud during the day and by the pillar of fire at night."(De cometis tratactus novus methodicus)

edit: oops a sentance didnt make sense, fixed.
edit: spelled "it" wrong somehow.

[edit on 9/2/2006 by ViolatoR]

[edit on 9/2/2006 by ViolatoR]

Great post

A lot of this I've come across in my own reading, I think it's amazing that Venus plots a pentagram in the sky... this just further adds weight to the idea that it's all part of a astro-theological allegory.

Lucifer, the morning star, the light bringer, the fallen angel..... Venus as the 'bringer of light'... the morning Sun.

I recently read a book 'Uriel's Machine', which puts forth ideas regarding the ancient cultures of the British Isles, and their hedges, where the light of Venus shine down the narrow entrances at specific times, which were used as birthing areas at these time.... Which in itself aligns with Venus as the Goddess of love, or fertility.



[edit on 3-9-2006 by VelvetSplash]

A couple of corrections, if I may?

Originally posted by ViolatoR
It is an astronomical fact that Venus passes through five fixed points on the celestial sphere every 8 years with a striking accuracy of timing.

This comes as a surprise ONLY if you don't know that planets follow regular orbital paths and every single one of them can pass through any number of fixed points during a cycle with a "striking accuracy of timing."

This is the definition of "stable orbit."

Heres a picture (a giant picture) of the zodiac with Venus' path: .

Actually, it isn't.

The diagram blindly assumes that the zodiac constellations take up the same amount of space (divide the orbit into 12 even parts and say "hey! Look at that!")

Take a look at the REAL sky:
starryskies.com...

Notice that Leo takes up a lot of sky, while Virgo doesn't. Scorpio sprawls hugely across the sky (you can only see a part of it.) Cancer is squished between Gemini and Leo.

And heres a picture of Venus making its pentagram in the sky: .

Somewhat misleading. Because Venus and other celestial objects have a regular orbit, you could do this with any planet. You could (selecting the right times and points) show that the orbit made a "triangle" or a "square" or anything else.

And heres a drawing by Issac Newton based on Venus' orbit: .

I'm afraid that one's been misidentified to you.

It's pre-Copernican (Earth at the center of the universe... Newton knew better) and the engraver-artist's name is at the bottom. It's not Newton.

Astrologers believe that this eight-year period in between eclipses of Venus represents a kind of “doorway” through which a global consciousness will begin to dominate humanity.

Speaking as someone who once made their living as an astrologer, that should be SOME astrologers say this. The others of us who have studied planetary orbits know that nothing of the sort occurred the last zillion times this happened and we don't expect anything this time.

But we could use some enlightenment, yes.

The Mayan's associated the planet Venus with Quetzalcoatl, the Mayan messiah figure who lived in the year 40 AD and who is supposed to return again in 2012.

Erm, Quetzalcoatl was a god, though people also took that name. There's nothing in their culture about him returning in 2012.

I was taking part in an interesting thread on the topic of venus being a comet in the space section of ATS.

Velikovsky's moronic speculations. Yes. We're familiar with them.

However if we look at historical records, back when religion was history, we find many accounts of a global catastrophie including a hail of fire and a flood and a time when the sun stopped in the sky for several days. Of course the sun did not stop, but the earth's rotation was some how slowed down; possibly by the close passing of a large celestial body.

No, we don't.

Velikovsky is tying together several Biblical stories that took place at different times and cobbling them together in his own weird theory. So, if you don't check his facts in the Bible and go on your own memory, it sounds okay.

There are no worldwide accounts of great floods and so forth. Civilizations have been writing and keeping records for over 6,000 years, so we know that Velikovsky's "the earth suddenly stopped" is wrong. Only the Bible talks about it -- nothing appears in Egyptian or Roman or Greek records.

And oddly enough on the other side of the world, instead of a long day, they had a long night... After these great and terrible events of history, a new star was born which joined the other visible stars, Mercury, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn.

Velikovsky at his goofiest. Civilizations that have Flood stories don't have any "new star appearing after the flood" stories. Nor are there any prehistoric drawings or cultural stories of such a phenomina (though there are a lot of records of Venus and records of the planet's very regular motion.)

I hate doing this but,

Originally posted by Byrd
This comes as a surprise ONLY if you don't know that planets follow regular orbital paths and every single one of them can pass through any number of fixed points during a cycle with a "striking accuracy of timing."

This is the definition of "stable orbit."
...

The diagram blindly assumes that the zodiac constellations take up the same amount of space (divide the orbit into 12 even parts and say "hey! Look at that!")

Take a look at the REAL sky:
starryskies.com...

Notice that Leo takes up a lot of sky, while Virgo doesn't. Scorpio sprawls hugely across the sky (you can only see a part of it.) Cancer is squished between Gemini and Leo.

Somewhat misleading. Because Venus and other celestial objects have a regular orbit, you could do this with any planet. You could (selecting the right times and points) show that the orbit made a "triangle" or a "square" or anything else.

me
A curious aspect of Venus' orbit and rotation periods is that the 584-day interval between successive close approaches to the Earth is almost exactly equal to five Venusian solar days.

Because the orbit of Venus is very regular she goes retrograde once every 18 months, and every 8 years returns to almost exactly the same place at the same time of year to repeat the cycle:

8 x 365 = 2920 days (8 years for the cycle to repeat in the same place in the zodiac)
5 x 584 = 2920 days (5 cycles of Venus, each taking 584 days to complete)

After that period, Venus, the Sun, the Earth and the stars are again in the same relative positions. It means that Venus, seen from the Earth, is in the same position with respect not only to the Sun, but also to the stars.

I would like to find another example of a planet, on each of its successive close passes of the earth in a period which, at the end of the process, is equal to the amount of time in which it takes to return to the exact same place in the sky; draw an image wherein each pass of the earth is equal to one part of the image's points (5 cycles for 5 points in this case), and the precise day for each pass, each time, is a successive point in this image.

Your right, the constellations vary in size. And it's even less easy to say is where Venus is in each constellation exactly. Using only one star map of constellations and the same zodiac picture shrunk down, I have reconstructed a very crude drawing of what the astrologer I quoted was probably trying to say when they said that Venus crosses those houses of the zodiac in such an order that it causes five points to be placed in the sky which form a pentagram. The points I drew are approximations based on the zodiac picture. As some points on the "pentagram" are not exactly in one specific "house," so I drew the dots in between the houses when I felt that it best represented what was on the zodiac drawing. This is by no means evidence that the zodiac-pentagram theory is correct; however, I think it is worth consideration.

Picture of the Zodiac with arrows going from 0-4.
Picture of a star map with arrows going in the same order and approximate places as the zodiac picture.

Originally posted by Byrd

me
And heres a drawing by Issac Newton based on Venus' orbit: .

I'm afraid that one's been misidentified to you.

It's pre-Copernican (Earth at the center of the universe... Newton knew better) and the engraver-artist's name is at the bottom. It's not Newton.

Ok, well I didnt draw it, and it matches exactly a venus mandala drawn by computer which I have.

Picture of Venus mandala drawn by computer based on the orbit of Venus. And heres "non-venus" drawing for comparison. (This old drawing is from: James Ferguson’s, Astronomy Explained Upon Sir Isaac Newton’s Principles, 1799 ed., plate III, opp. p. 67.)

There is a 0.0789 day slippage every 584 days, totalling a one day slippage each 12.67 synodic periods. This means that the pentagram figure is slowly revolving within an oval in a clockwise direction, alternating either one or two points ascendant roughly every 160 years. There is no observation point on Earth that would present a regular pentagram. Moving further north elongates the figure while on the equator the figure is an irregular pentagon.

Any running set of observation times other than those tied to the synodic period of Venus would create a recursive pattern such as that shown here. As opposed to the earlier picture I posted, which is based on observations of the synodic period, here.

posted by byrd:

Astrologers believe that this eight-year period in between eclipses of Venus represents a kind of “doorway” through which a global consciousness will begin to dominate humanity.

Speaking as someone who once made their living as an astrologer, that should be SOME astrologers say this. The others of us who have studied planetary orbits know that nothing of the sort occurred the last zillion times this happened and we don't expect anything this time.

But we could use some enlightenment, yes.

Alright well I didnt say that, take it up with the person I quoted.

Another byrd quote:

The Mayan's associated the planet Venus with Quetzalcoatl, the Mayan messiah figure who lived in the year 40 AD and who is supposed to return again in 2012.

Erm, Quetzalcoatl was a god, though people also took that name. There's nothing in their culture about him returning in 2012.

Ok well,

www.adriangilbert.co.uk...
On March 4 1519 Hernan Cortes, with 11 ships, 600 foot soldiers, 16 horses and some artillery landed on the coast near what was to become Vera Cruz. By August 13 1521 he had conquered the Aztec Empire, the most powerful state in all of the Americas. Part of the reason for his success was a case of mistaken identities, the Indians believing that he was a god named Quetzalcoatl whose return had long been prophesied.

The original Quetzalcoatl, whose name means 'plumed serpent' and who was identified with the planet Venus, probably lived at the start of the fourth age, around 3114 BC

www.stetson.edu...
"4 Ahaw k'atun is the eleventh k'atun according to the count. Chichen Itza is the seating of the k'atun. The settlement of the Itzas comes. The quetzal comes, the green bird comes. He of the yellow tree comes. Blood-vomit comes. K'uk'ulkan shall come...." Book of Chilam Balam of Chumayel.

The passage explicitly references the 4 Ahaw k'atun (7,200 day period) in the mid-1700s but most likely refers to the arrival of the historical K'uk'ulkan in 987. However, according to Mayan cyclical time, the 4 Ahaw k'atun ending on the 2012 winter solstice would likely share similar qualities.

Alright since the time periods have specific meaning and the cycle, the "4 ahaw k'atun" of an earier time is the same as the "4 ahaw k'atun" in 2012. And the prophetic text of what will happen on this "4 ahaw k'atun," says specifically "The quetzal comes, the green bird comes."

Quetzal-coatl is translated as "Serpent of precious features", "Plumed Serpent" or "Green-feathered Serpent"

Quetzl's return was prophesied, written about in a cyclical date which lands exactly on the winter solstice of 2012, was the name of a god who was a person who lived in turbulent times during which "The sun was attacked by Quetzal-cohuatl" and "the sun refused to shine, and during four days the world was deprived of its light; ... Thereafter, the snakelike body transformed itself into a great star. The star retained the name of Quetzal-cohuatl. This great and brilliant star appeared for the first time in the east," and this person took his name from the planet venus which was called Quetzl-coatl.

[edit on 9/4/2006 by ViolatoR]

Last of byrd's post:
There are no worldwide accounts of great floods and so forth. Civilizations have been writing and keeping records for over 6,000 years, so we know that Velikovsky's "the earth suddenly stopped" is wrong. Only the Bible talks about it -- nothing appears in Egyptian or Roman or Greek records.

...

Velikovsky at his goofiest. Civilizations that have Flood stories don't have any "new star appearing after the flood" stories. Nor are there any prehistoric drawings or cultural stories of such a phenomina (though there are a lot of records of Venus and records of the planet's very regular motion.)

No worldwide accounts of great floods?

Ellen Lloyd, Author of: "Voices from Legendary Times: We are a bridge between past and future."

The truth is that except for the Antarctica, there is no continent on our planet, whose population is not familiar with the Great Flood. Most Deluge stories have been traced to America and Asia. Deluge skeptics often point out the fact that during the Christian missionaries' trips to various countries, the natives' flood legend could have been directly influenced by the Biblical story of Noah. It is a reasonable argument. Nevertheless, several flood stories are told by civilizations, which have never been in contact with Christian's missionaries. Others, such as for example the Mexican flood traditions originate in ages long before the arrival of the Spaniards, the Christian influence is therefore out of the question.

The people of America are very familiar with the Great Flood. In America, we find various Deluge stories. Many of them convey the traditional story of a surviving couple, warned of the flood by a mighty deity.
The Mexican equivalence to the Biblical Noah was Coxcox, a man, who together with his wife, Xochiquetzal, escaped the cataclysm in huge boat after being forewarned by a divine being and given instructions on how to construct the ship.

The Inuit of Alaska, the Luiseno of the Lower California, the Chickasaws, the Iroquois, the Sioux , the Akawais, the Zuni Indians, the Maya, the Aztecs and many more all share the same memories of the days when the Earth nearly died. Hundreds of universal flood myths, legends, and traditions referring to an ancient cosmic disaster can be found in nearly every corner of the world.

Plato, the Greek philosopher considered Earth to be a victim of frequent deluges and cataclysms, which whipped out whole civilizations. Plato was right when he said that various cosmic bodies are a permanent threat to our planet.

Oh, then theres this website:
flood myths

Now the long night/day,

From the Codex Chimalpopoca
In the history of the empire of Culhuacan and Mexico, written in Nahua-Indian in the 16th century - it is related that during a cosmic catastrophe that occured in the remote past, the night did not end for a long time.

According to Bernardino de Sahagun's Historia general de las cosas Nueva Espana,
Sahagun, the Spanish savant who came to America a generation after Columbus and gathered the traditions of the aboriginies, wrote that at the time of one cosmic catastrophe the sun rose only a little way over the horizen and remained there without moving; the moon also stool still.

www.answersingenesis.org...
cultures on the opposite side of the world should have legends of a long night. In fact, the New Zealand Maori people have a myth about how their hero Maui slowed the sun before it rose, ... For example, there is a Greek myth of Apollo’s son, Phaethon, who disrupted the sun’s course for a day.

www.zetatalk.com...
Heroditus, a Greek historian, wrote that an account of "a long day" appears in records of Egyptian priests. Others cite records of Mexicans of the sun standing still for an entire day in a year denoted as "Seven Rabits," which is the same year in which Joshua defeated the Philistines and conquered Palestine. ... Additionally, the historical lore of the Aztecs, Peruvians, and Babylonians speak of a "day of twice natural length."

New star,

Byrd - "Civilizations that have Flood stories don't have any "new star appearing after the flood" stories"

Sources de l'histoire primitive du Mexique
"The morning star appeared for the first time following the convulsions of the earth and overwhelmed by a deluge."

Alright I'm quite tired, its 4:15AM, good morning to all. Im gonna sleep like a baby.

(edited all above posts to change "quote" to "ex," I keep forgetting that tag!)

[edit on 9/4/2006 by ViolatoR]

Originally posted by ViolatoR
I would like to find another example of a planet, on each of its successive close passes of the earth in a period which, at the end of the process, is equal to the amount of time in which it takes to return to the exact same place in the sky; draw an image wherein each pass of the earth is equal to one part of the image's points (5 cycles for 5 points in this case), and the precise day for each pass, each time, is a successive point in this image.

It's simply a matter of choosing the right number and the right planet. You can do it with the noontime sun if you pick the right set of dates (fall, winter, spring for an upright pentigram, spring, summer, fall for an inverted one.) In the case of the outer planets, the period will be hundreds or thousands of years (not sure if you can do this with Pluto because of the orbital eccentricities.

I have reconstructed a very crude drawing of what the astrologer I quoted was probably trying to say when they said that Venus crosses those houses of the zodiac in such an order that it causes five points to be placed in the sky which form a pentagram.

Actually, the fault lies with the astrologer (of whatever century) who is using an "equal house" system of division where the sky is divided into 12 even parts. This is a fairly modern Roman era interpretation and based on Roman and Greek constellations (the point being that all ancient cultures saw different things in the constellations that make up the zodiac, and they didn't group the stars in the same way.)

This is by no means evidence that the zodiac-pentagram theory is correct; however, I think it is worth consideration.

For what it's worth, the zodiac-pentagram (caused simply by orbital motion) was something that was studied by the mystics in Europe during the Renaissance, who concluded some rather odd and mystical things as a result of this. They saw the Earth as the center of the universe and planets going around it in complex paths (caused by crystal heavenly spheres of different sizes.) It was completely wrong, but they would use the coincidence of 5 points to make Christian allusions.

It's an interesting phenomina, yes, but it's not unique though Velikovsky makes it seem as though it's startlingly unique. And he doesn't encourage asking exploratory questions such as "what shapes do the orbits of other planets form in the sky" and "what's the math behind it all."

Venus is an interesting planet, and the REAL ancient stories about it are also interesting. For instance, the Aztecs timed sacrifices when Venus and the Pleaides lined up: www.windows.ucar.edu...=/mythology/tlahuizcal_venus.html

The Incans thought that Venus was the servant of the sun:
www.physics.unr.edu...

The Aztecs saw Venus as two different (brother) gods:
en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by ViolatoR
No worldwide accounts of great floods?

Ellen Lloyd, Author of: "Voices from Legendary Times: We are a bridge between past and future."

The truth is that except for the Antarctica, there is no continent on our planet, whose population is not familiar with the Great Flood.

But only after Christian missionaries showed up.

There are no flood stories among the Norse (the one flood myth of how the oceans began takes place before humans were made), or the Finns, and none among the Mongols. There are none among the African desert tribes, and none among the Ainu or other Japanese cultures.

Most significantly, of the cultures who had writing and wrote prodigiously, there are no Great Flood myths among the ancient Romans or the ancient Egyptians or the ancient Phoenecians. The only German version comes from Grimm's Fairy Tales (which was compiled in the 1800's.)

The most complete list of flood myths is here. Some of them are a real stretch (as with the one about the god who cut open a tree and water gushed forth and people emerged) and a number of them are very clearly retellings of missionary tales (some of the Australian ones -- Fitzroy River one, for example) :
www.talkorigins.org...

It won't be apparent to you (but is to me because I studied anthropology) that the list isn't even half the known cultures of the world.

The people of America are very familiar with the Great Flood. In America, we find various Deluge stories. Many of them convey the traditional story of a surviving couple, warned of the flood by a mighty deity.

You might want to do a bit more reading on the flood myth pages.

Plato, the Greek philosopher considered Earth to be a victim of frequent deluges and cataclysms, which whipped out whole civilizations. Plato was right when he said that various cosmic bodies are a permanent threat to our planet.

That quote is taken out of context, I'm afraid.

The speaker is the Priest of Sais (not Plato) and it's part of a story he's telling. The priest is telling Solon that his Greek culture isn't all-knowing; that other peoples (Egyptian) have better records of ancient times. To prove his point, the Priest of Sais talks about ancient destructions.

Plato doesn't seem to have believed this, himself... just like J. K. Rowling doesn't believe the logic she has Lord Voldemort preach.

Oh, then theres this website:
flood myths

(edited) They copied it from that resource I listed above. However, while there's a large number of stories, the ones that match Noah are actually only a handfull. The Aboriginal ones include a water stealer (nothing about bad people) and someone who breaks a dam (hardly a worldwide deluge).

Now the long night/day,
(snippage)

There are a number of legends about long days, just as there are about times when the sun didn't exist and life was pretty much as we see it today except there wasn't any sun. These are "how things came to be" stories; they're not science.

Our solar system is a group of planets orbiting a sun and not a sun and planets floating around Earth. Everything obeys the laws of physics, including the "bodies in motion tend to stay in motion."

The Earth's surface is rotating at 1,200 miles per hour. If you stop ANYTHING going at 1200 mph, you end up with total destruction (as in, the planet falls apart.)

I stand corrected, however -- apparently some flood stories do have "new star" stories associated with them.

We can argue Velikovsky in greater detail. Please remember that he's using the cosmological model of "earth at the center, stars and planets are small things, and everything rotates around Earth." He isn't using the "Earth and Venus are nearly the same size, Earth is part of a solar system, and planets and stars are large objects" cosmological model of today. If asked, I'm sure he believes the Copernican solar system model... but he has no concept of what would happen if something the size of Earth appeared in the skies over Earth and came so close to Earth that it was inside the Moon's orbit.

To him, a planet the size of Earth is just "a big comet" with no gravity. And that's very clearly wrong: www.imagineeringezine.com...


[edit on 4-9-2006 by Byrd]

perhaps flood stories warrants a new thread all of its own Byrd
Just lately because of my area of research its become my specialised subject

you'd probably be surprised at the real truth behind Noah and Atlantis and Atrahasis
i know I was when i found it

and besides which it has nothing to do with Venus or any other celestial object, or God when i come to think about it

there are for instance far more great flood stories in sumerian texts than most people know about
at least 20 that I know of

and you know that Sais didn't ever mention that the account of the flood that deluged Atlantis was one that he had first hand
you'll notice it has no egyptian characters in it
and theres only one civilisation older than Egypt who could have passed it to them.
things that make you go hmmm ?



[edit on 4-9-2006 by Marduk]

Real truth?
Well, link us to it, please.

Originally posted by Byrd
The Incans thought that Venus was the servant of the sun:
www.physics.unr.edu...

That sounds kind of similar to the idea of Venus as the morning star, the bringer of light.




One thing that's always interested me is how, as I child I always read/was told, that the Gods in Roman/Greek mythology, where the stories' characters match constellations, that these Gods were made into stars in the sky, and that's why the constellations are named after them.

Given that many ancient cultures put so much faith in the Heavens and the movements of the stars and planets, that it would make more sense to look at it the other way round, and say that the Gods were named after the constellations, not the other way around, and thus their respective mythologies are allegories for the movements and relationships that stellar objects have, in relation to each other viewed here from Earth.

I'm not sure at all if this is how they were actually named, but I know it's often said the former explanation, the constellations were thought to be the Gods and were named after them, not the other way around.

Real truth?
well link us to it please

etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk...

of course the truth on its own isn't any good unless you understand its meaning

Thank you Marduk, I have printed off all 29 pages of that link provided. I noticed the word Flood used quite frequently and bolded as well.

Is there some special usage of the word "flood" that I could know before reading that would add to my ability to understand?

Originally posted by Marduk
perhaps flood stories warrants a new thread all of its own Byrd
Just lately because of my area of research its become my specialised subject

Good idea! I'd like to read what you've got.

Originally posted by Byrd

Originally posted by ViolatoR
No worldwide accounts of great floods?

Ellen Lloyd, Author of: "Voices from Legendary Times: We are a bridge between past and future."

The truth is that except for the Antarctica, there is no continent on our planet, whose population is not familiar with the Great Flood.

But only after Christian missionaries showed up.

There are no flood stories among the Norse (the one flood myth of how the oceans began takes place before humans were made), or the Finns, and none among the Mongols. There are none among the African desert tribes, and none among the Ainu or other Japanese cultures.

Most significantly, of the cultures who had writing and wrote prodigiously, there are no Great Flood myths among the ancient Romans or the ancient Egyptians or the ancient Phoenecians. The only German version comes from Grimm's Fairy Tales (which was compiled in the 1800's.)

already posted above.
Ellen Lloyd, Author of: "Voices from Legendary Times: We are a bridge between past and future."

Deluge skeptics often point out the fact that during the Christian missionaries' trips to various countries, the natives' flood legend could have been directly influenced by the Biblical story of Noah. It is a reasonable argument. Nevertheless, several flood stories are told by civilizations, which have never been in contact with Christian's missionaries. Others, such as for example the Mexican flood traditions originate in ages long before the arrival of the Spaniards, the Christian influence is therefore out of the question.

library.thinkquest.org...

Egyptian Flood: Ra was warned by the Watery Abyss that humans had grown too rebellious [This is obviously post-creation and reminds me of the bible story, Vio], so he took Hathor and ordered her to punish the people.

Hathor went to earth and slew millions of humans. The streets of the town of Chetenuten began to run like a river with blood because of her horrific endeavour. So much blood drained into the Nile that it overflowed the riverbanks, and the bloody water flooded the land, destroying everything. This water eventually ran into the sea, which overflowed as well. Hathor began drinking this horrible mixture of blood and water.

Ra was displeased with Hathor's work, as he had only wanted to punish, and not destroy, the human race. So he asked Thoth, the wisest God, for help. He then told the Goddess Sektet to mix together dada, fruit and barley to make beer. The beer was then to be mixed with human blood, in the hopes that it would attract Hathor.

Ra's servents were then ordered to pour out the mixture on the remaining land near Hathor. The beer became a great sea, and Hathor was drawn to it by the smell of the blood. She drank the beer until she was so intoxicated that she staggered off to sleep, leaving the last few humans behind.

From those humans, earth was repopulated. [Sound familiar?, Vio]

library.thinkquest.org...
Greek: In early history, it is not known if perhaps it was even before the Golden Age of man, [Another post-creation story sounding eerily similar to the bible, Vio] humans became more horrible and wicked as each day passed, and Zeus got angry with them all. One day he decided to demolish them, and Prometheus - the Titan who had made mankind - was warned of the flood Zeus was going to cast on the earth. Prometheus then warned his son Deucalion as well as Deucalion's wife, Pyrrha. They were put in a wooden chest in which they lived until the flood, which lasted nine days and nights, subsided. The only parts of the earth that were left untouched by the flood were Mount Parnassus and Mount Olympus.

Alright thats enough of that, this needs to be on another thread I think.

Byrd

Now the long night/day,
(snippage)

There are a number of legends about long days, just as there are about times when the sun didn't exist and life was pretty much as we see it today except there wasn't any sun. These are "how things came to be" stories; they're not science.

The Earth's surface is rotating at 1,200 miles per hour. If you stop ANYTHING going at 1200 mph, you end up with total destruction (as in, the planet falls apart.)

None of the long day or night quotes I have already posted were about the creation of the planet. In some of them the sun is blocked out for a while because of the ash and when it subsides they have to rearrange their calendars which now have 5 more days and they notice a new star as well. But this "creation" aspect only relates to the "new age" or "new sun" which has just dawned, and has done so many times in the past; without total destruction or a completely new earth being formed.

Earthquake,

The tenth plague of Egypt was an earthquake that smote the houses of the Egyptians, their temples and even their caves for criminals; according to Velikovsky. He believes that the plagued that killed the "first born" (bkhor) was really a plague against the "chosen" (bchor). In the Papyrus Ipuwer there are several explanations of buildings falling over and killing people. This is because the Egyptians used stone structures and the Hebrews used clay and reeds to construct their houses.

Exodus: "The Lord will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come and smite your houses."

If we take Velikovsky's idea that the houses were literally being smote (a violent blow, like that by an ox), then we understand that large stone buildings would be more likely to crumble and kill people.

An inscription made during the New Kingdon of Egypt refers to a temple in the last days of the Middle Kingdom which was swallowed by the ground.(Ancient Records of Egypt)

"At midnight all the houses of Egypt were smitten; there was not a house in Egypt where there was not one dead." (Exodus 12)

For the Hebrews this event happened at midnight the 14th day of Aviv (the first month). This would be the 13th for the Egyptians who count days by sunrise not sunset. And "The thirteenth day of the month Thout (first month) is a very bad day... It is the day of the combat which Horus waged with Seth."(Egyptian Mythology) In the Western Hemisphere, on the 13th day of the month "olin" (motion/earthquake), a new sun initiated a another world age.(Gesammelte Abhandlungen)

Cracking of the Earth,

The Mexican Popol-Vuh, Manuscript Cakchiquel, & Manuscript Troano record: The mountains in every part of the western hemisphere simultaneously gushed lava, and the volcanoes along the entire chain of the Cordilleras opened. During the world age that ended in rain and fire, mountains swelled under pressure of molten masses and new ridges rose along with new volcanoes and streams of lava flowed from a cleft in the Earth. The Kaska Tales of American folklore states that "Great clouds appeared... such a great heat came, that finally the water boiled. People jumped into the streams and lakes to cool themselves, and died." "It grew very hot... many animals jumped into the water to save themselves, but the water began to boil." Tails of North American Indians. "The Lord fought against the Egyptians with a pillar of cloud and fire. The mire (at the bottom of the Sea of Passage) was heated to the boiling point by the pillar of fire."Legends.

I'll stop here and state that I think that a sudden and instant stoppage of the Earth would definetly cause the crust to lift and move in such a way that it would surely kill everyone on it. However a slower process where another body's gravtiy affects the earth as it passes in the direction opposite the rotation of the earth would still cause dramatic earth change, but would allow some people to survive it. The inertia of the crust would cause great rifts to be opened and new mountains to be formed. These exact statements are found in the texts referring to the ending of a pervious world age. The sea would certainly boil if a huge new cleft were to open in it. And again it would seem that this is what some people did wittness. The slowing of the Earth would possibly cause the oceans to be pulled towards the poles then as the momentum was used up, the oceans would return. This pulling of the ocean over large landmasses could be described as a global flood. None of these events refer to the very beginning of the earth before man existed or before the stars and sun existed.

edit: darnthatspacebar!getsmeeverytime!

[edit on 9/4/2006 by ViolatoR]

Originally posted by ViolatoR
The planet Venus has so much folklore surrounding it, that I figured Venus diserved her own thread to lay it all out for us. Ill start with some basic info, then you guys can add anything I leave out or just read it and move along.

Heres some basic info from Wiki:

en.wikipedia.org...
Venus is the second-closest planet to the Sun, orbiting it every 224.7 Earth days. After Earth's Moon, it is the brightest object in the night sky, reaching an apparent magnitude of -4.6. As an inferior planet from Earth it never appears to venture far from the Sun, and its elongation reaches a maximum of 47.8°. Venus reaches its maximum brightness shortly before sunrise or shortly after sunset, and is often referred to as the Morning Star or Evening Star.

A curious aspect of Venus' orbit and rotation periods is that the 584-day interval between successive close approaches to the Earth is almost exactly equal to five Venusian solar days.

Venus 'overtakes' the Earth every 584 days as it orbits the Sun. As it does so, it goes from being the 'Evening star', visible after sunset, to being the 'Morning star', visible before sunrise.

Orbit and retrograde:

Because the orbit of Venus is very regular she goes retrograde once every 18 months, and every 8 years returns to almost exactly the same place at the same time of year to repeat the cycle:

8 x 365 = 2920 days (8 years for the cycle to repeat in the same place in the zodiac)
5 x 584 = 2920 days (5 cycles of Venus, each taking 584 days to complete)

Venus and the pentagram.

It is an astronomical fact that Venus passes through five fixed points on the celestial sphere every 8 years with a striking accuracy of timing.

The five periods of Venus take eight years (When we round Venus' synodic period to a whole number 584, we can calculate that 584x5=2920 days, 2920/365 = 8 years). Take a particular point in a synodic revolution of Venus, for instance the greatest elongation east which places it in one zodiacal constellation. After an interval of 584 days (or nearly 19 months) later, greatest elongation east will take place again, this time almost seven constellations away. These events repeat every nineteen months and the result is that in eight years the eastern elongation point will return close to the point where it started - only about two degrees less - making a pentagram on the zodiac.

After that period, Venus, the Sun, the Earth and the stars are again in the same relative positions. It means that Venus, seen from the Earth, is in the same position with respect not only to the Sun, but also to the stars.

Heres a picture (a giant picture) of the zodiac with Venus' path: .
And heres a picture of Venus making its pentagram in the sky: .
And heres a drawing by Issac Newton based on Venus' orbit: .

Venus as Lucifer.

Ok, well Venus is also referred to as the Light Bearer or Light Bringer, the Morning and Evening Star, and even Lucifer which is latin for Light Bringer. The reason for these names is that Venus is closer to the sun than we are; so its orbit is nearer the sun and Venus always appears near the sun in the sky just before or after the sun rises or sets. (There are more names for Venus which I will get to in my next post.)

Deserved*
No problem.

Is there some special usage of the word "flood" that I could know before reading that would add to my ability to understand?

unlike most other cultures that have normally just one flood story the sumerians have many
the floods in those stories are of two types
1) carp flood
2) catastrophic flood

the carp is a river fish and so the carp flood represents the seasonal floods that affected the plain of mesopotamia

but the other type of flood is markedly different
the stories that involve it are always linked t the actions of a handful of Gods
normally
Either Enlil the flood God who made it big time in the Hebrew rewrite of the story with Noah
Inanna in her role as nasty woman in a patrilineal society (i.e. blame the chick she did it)
Iskur the storm God
Iskur is normally coerced into it by Inanna

there are lots of different texts that claim that these two deities are responsible for a catastrophic flood in ages past

now if you realise that the most famous flood story of all time (that of Noah) is derived from a sumerian text then consider the Atlantis tale
it is told by an egyptian priest to Solon
but the egyptian priest doesnt mention any Egyptian characters that we know of
there can only be two reasons for this
1) there were no egyptian characters
2) the names were changed by Plato to make it a more familiar tale to his readership

changing the names to protect the innocent is a standard tactic in storytelling
it happens with every story currently in existence that has roots in a different culture
the Noah story
Cinderella
the Ugly duckling
they are all retold with different names more common to the society that is retelling the story

the egyptian culture wasn't around before 3100bce to be recording stories that were "hoary with age"
but the sumerian culture was in existence from 2000 years earlier
so it is most likely that the story of Atlantis the same as the story of Noah is a derivation from a sumerian original
when you look at the general facts they match quite nicely
1) devastating flood
2) culture washed away
3) survivor/survivors go on to build the human race
4) God did the damage to punish evil/sin
5) a long time ago
6) the god that sends the flood uses an eye as his symbol

so by studying the DNA of the group who are the origin of this story telling tradition and cross referencing it with actual known flood events its possible to find the little piece of truth that started all this off
so that you can find Atlantis and the Flood of Noah and the Flood of Manu and the Flood of Aztlan and the flood of Upnapishtim and the flood of Atrahasis and the flood of Ziusudra all in one go


because all these stories are localised to the middle east and all these stories are based on a single event in human history
BECAUSE ALL THE MAIN DETAILS FROM THE STORIES ARE THE SAME

and no its nowehere near the Atlantic, Antartica or South America
and yes the continent affected was larger than Libya and asia combined
heres a question to all the lateral thinkers out there
which existing continent is larger than Libya and Asia and is quite near the home of these three main stories (greece, egypt and mesopotamia)

Originally posted by Marduk
perhaps flood stories warrants a new thread all of its own Byrd
Just lately because of my area of research its become my specialised subject

We could do it. However, I'm approaching a busy semester.

you'd probably be surprised at the real truth behind Noah and Atlantis and Atrahasis. i know I was when i found it

I might be... but remember how picky I am about sources.

there are for instance far more great flood stories in sumerian texts than most people know about
at least 20 that I know of

We discussed this on some other threads, so some of the folks reading this thread are aware of them.

and you know that Sais didn't ever mention that the account of the flood that deluged Atlantis was one that he had first hand
you'll notice it has no egyptian characters in it
and theres only one civilisation older than Egypt who could have passed it to them.
things that make you go hmmm ?

Well, it makes me go "hmm. What's he talking about?" The Egyptians traded extensively with everyone in the Mediterranean, and there are Levantine civilizations (with the bull cults, yet) that are older than Egypt's first dynasty. We can't judge directly the Levantine knowledge that was passed along, but we know that they did pass along elements of their culture (weaving patterns, domestication of animals, etc.) I suspect that they passed along religous stories, hymns, prayers, and historical tales, too.

Of course, Egyptian civilization is older than the first dynasty. That's just when they developed writing and began recording things.

And, to bring it back on track, -- none of these seems to have attached any peculiar significance to Venus.