It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

The Flag - Where is the dividing line between respect, disrespect, and worship?

page: 2
0
<< 1    3 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Sep, 1 2006 @ 12:40 PM
link   

Originally posted by thelibra

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I don't 'show' patriotism for the most part. My patriotism is no one's business.


While I completely support your right to not do these things, your reasoning behind it is, I feel, flawed.


My reason for not performing these shows of patriotism is that I believe it's a personal thing. (I see now how one could interpret my reason as "because it is cliche" and that's not what I meant to represent. Sorry.) My reason is that it's nobody's business. My reason is that I don't feel an obligation to 'show' other people that I am patriotic. And I may not be feeling particularly patriotic at the time.

I feel patriotism when I feel it, not necessarily at the beginning of a ball game, and not necessarily at the strike of a chord of a song. I don't believe I should make a 'show' of my patriotism for these other people, just so we'll all know that everybody here is a patriot. I believe such traditions are displays for other people.



Why watch a sunset, when it has become cliche? Why pray, when so many others do so for selfish reasons? Why throw a birthday party, when it's just an excuse to receive presents? Why attend a funeral, when it's not like the dead person is going to know anyway?


The way I see it, the only reason to do any of these things is because they are enjoyable or provide some benefit to me or someone else. I wouldn't watch a sunset just because a bunch of people got together to watch a sunset (unless I felt inspired to do so). I wouldn't throw a birthday party just because everyone else was doing it. I would attend a funeral for my own closure, not because it was 'the thing to do'. And if I prayed, I'd do it because it brought me comfort or to give thanks, not because I happened to be in church and everyone else was doing it.

Patriotic displays seem so orchestrated to me. One time, I just thought, "What am I doing, standing here with my hand on my heart? Why am I doing this"? And I couldn't come up with an answer that made sense to me.

Please understand I have NO problem whatsoever with other people doing it. I just can't figure out why I should.




posted on Sep, 1 2006 @ 01:52 PM
link   

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
My reason for not performing these shows of patriotism is that I believe it's a personal thing. (I see now how one could interpret my reason as "because it is cliche" and that's not what I meant to represent. Sorry.)


Nah, it's cool. That's totally understandable. Actually the cliche thing would have been understandable too, even if I didn't personally agree with it.



Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I feel patriotism when I feel it, not necessarily at the beginning of a ball game, and not necessarily at the strike of a chord of a song.


Yeah, I always kinda wondered about that one. Why am I required to show patriotism at the beginning of a staged game between two pampered groups of divas who won't so much as leave the dugout without their million dollar bonus, and whom are only there because they're taking a break from their commercial endorsements of products they've never used.

Now I could see it for a celebration of something, like the Fourth of July... but what the heck do ball games have to do with patriotism? Good point. Meh. Just another thing I'll have to change once I'm world dictator.


Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I don't believe I should make a 'show' of my patriotism for these other people, just so we'll all know that everybody here is a patriot. I believe such traditions are displays for other people.

(snip)

Patriotic displays seem so orchestrated to me. One time, I just thought, "What am I doing, standing here with my hand on my heart? Why am I doing this"? And I couldn't come up with an answer that made sense to me.


Well... see... en masse, they are displays for other people. But that's not neccessarily a bad thing, it's more like solidarity. People draw strength and energy from one another. Chances are, when surrounded by a large group of people saying the pledge, or singing the national anthem, that most of them weren't feeling very patriotic 5 minutes previous to the occasion.

And yet, the act of an entire group of people, acting as one unified voice, exclaiming ideals they believe in, but may have forgotten, becomes amplified for every voice that joins in. By the end of the pledge, or the song, those that participated feel, for at least a few minutes, like they were a part of something great, something they could believe in. Something they might not otherwise have done, were it not for the others who started it.

It's the sort of thing that produces a warm fuzzy feeling that few other things can.

However, I do also understand where you're coming from. I feel the same way about people who pray in public. In sunday school, when I was a kid, we called those kinds of people Pharisees, because they prayed for attention, to show how holy they were. It was my belief (and still is) that when you pray, you do so behind closed doors, where it's between you and your choice of maker or lack thereof.

But at the same time, I also recognize the need for people of like-minded faith to join hands and pray together, not for show, but for strength in the moment, and the support of one's fellows. Or, if I may use a Buddhist example, when a room full of participants all hit that one "Ohm" at just the right pitch, and the air becomes charged with what can only be described as the magic of the moment.

I feel that, as far as the pledge and the national anthem are concerned, it is a similar concept to these in the best of times, and much like the Pharisees in the worst. I suppose it really depends on the context.


Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Please understand I have NO problem whatsoever with other people doing it. I just can't figure out why I should.



Oh, no, man, nothing you said gave me that impression at all. And I hope my attempts at explaining it don't come across as badgering or even worse, a "my country, right or wrong" attitude. I'm just hoping to get some dialogue going on all sides of the flags (and all countries too... I'd really like to see how people in other places think about these sorts of things).

[edit on 9/1/2006 by thelibra]



posted on Sep, 1 2006 @ 02:22 PM
link   
Oh, wow. I didn't know this, but apparently you can be fined $100 and be thrown in jail for 30 days if you're found guilty of "disrespecting the flag" within the confines of the District of Columbia.


from the U.S. Code Online via GPO Access

Any person who, within the District of Columbia, in any manner, for
exhibition or display, shall place or cause to be placed any word,
figure, mark, picture, design, drawing, or any advertisement of any
nature upon any flag, standard, colors, or ensign of the United States
of America; or shall expose or cause to be exposed to public view any
such flag, standard, colors, or ensign upon which shall have been
printed, painted, or otherwise placed, or to which shall be attached,
appended, affixed, or annexed any word, figure, mark, picture, design,
or drawing, or any advertisement of any nature; or who, within the
District of Columbia, shall manufacture, sell, expose for sale, or to
public view, or give away or have in possession for sale, or to be given
away or for use for any purpose, any article or substance being an
article of merchandise, or a receptacle for merchandise or article or
thing for carrying or transporting merchandise, upon which shall have
been printed, painted, attached, or otherwise placed a representation of
any such flag, standard, colors, or ensign, to advertise, call attention
to, decorate, mark, or distinguish the article or substance on which so
placed shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor and shall be punished by
a fine not exceeding $100 or by imprisonment for not more than thirty
days, or both, in the discretion of the court.




Interesting. Anyone know if this is still in effect? It doesn't look to have been revoked.



posted on Sep, 1 2006 @ 02:30 PM
link   


1.) Should your country's flag be respected?

No, a flag is just a kind of I.D. for a country.



2.) Where's the dividing line between respect and disrespect for one's flag?

Intent is the divider, if you mean to disrespect the flag by than your actions are direspectful to it, if you repect it than your actions are respectful.



3.) Where's the dividing line between worship and respect for one's flag?

I honestly don't know, but I do see it as a very thick line.



posted on Sep, 1 2006 @ 04:02 PM
link   


posted by thelibra

TITLE 4--FLAG AND SEAL, SEAT OF GOVERNMENT, AND THE STATES

CHAPTER 1--THE FLAG

Sec. 3. (July 30, 1947, July 5, 1968)

Interesting. Anyone know if this is still in effect? It doesn't look to have been revoked. [Edited by Don W]




You might Google on “4USC3" then look for Chapter 1, then Section 3, to see what comes up. Since Title 4 covers the Flag, DC and States, there might be a lot of cases reported involving that Title. This law applies only to the DC.

Back in the halcyon days of the 1960s, early 1970s, the US Supreme Court held burning a flag was a form of speech and therefore protected by the First Amendment.

Frankly, I find it odd that mostly anti-burning flag guys are also pro stone monument X Commandments as in Judge Roy Moore. Why am I always on the “other side?” I guess it’s a compulsion versus liberality issue? What Roe called a right of privacy?


[edit on 9/1/2006 by donwhite]



posted on Sep, 1 2006 @ 04:12 PM
link   

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Well we might as well have me post in here.

Now, the flag code, yes I have read the flag code and yes I understand what is says, however to me there is one thing to consider as well, intent. I know that according to the flag code the Flag should not be worn as clothing but to me that's one of those rules that should not be so strictly interpreted.


Ok yeah so if I fire 1000 rounds into the air as a patriotic display on the 4th of July, and one of those rounds happens to hit somebody and kill them, well no biggie because my intent was just to show support for my country?
If you think my comparison is way off I want you to understand that seeing the Flag being worn as a nightie by a tranny offends the memory of every single person that has died to defend it, and to be honest if kills me a little every time I see how disrespectful we have become in this country to our heritige, our history, and to our fallen heroes.

I am not the only person to tell you it is offensive, and I would be willing to bet that 90% of the people that have told you it is offensive are prior service members, veterans who understand exactly what the flag stands for. Veterans who have a vested interest in this great nation. People who have put blood sweat and tears into defending the country AND the flag that represents it.
So why, if all these people that have served ask you, why wont you take it down?

As far as you folks saying 'its on trucks and hats and pens' Yes, it is all over the place, but in most of those situations its more tasteful than draped across some half naked tranny. By the way I dont think you could swim in that, for the person that thought it was a swimsuit.
I guess its all good tho westpoint. You simply dont understand WHY the flag code says it shouldnt be worn as a flag, (FOR JUST SUCH REASONS AS THIS) So since you dont understand the rules well then you just shouldnt follow them huh?
Why dont you take that HONOR word from above your avitar atleast, because the only person you are HONORING is your own selfish desires by flying that nausiating
representation of OUR flag (not YOUR flag, OURS)
IM deeply offended by it, and I bet most veterans are as well.
I bet you think its alright to make American Flag diapers too?

For the record dgtempe I stopped flying my flag about 2 years ago, for about the same reasons as you.



posted on Sep, 1 2006 @ 04:28 PM
link   

Originally posted by 11Bravo
I am not the only person to tell you it is offensive,


And I am not the only one who doesn't find it offensive. Who is right?



So why, if all these people that have served ask you, why wont you take it down?


Why should he? It's the avatar he chooses and apparently it doesn't go against ATS's T&C. Why should he take it down? So you'll feel better?

Offense is in the eye of the beholder. A picture does not carry intent. Therefore, it's up the the observer to decide to be offended or not.

Just curious, where did you stand on the Mohammad Cartoons fiasco?



posted on Sep, 1 2006 @ 04:37 PM
link   


posted by 11Bravo

I am not the only person to tell you it is offensive, and I would be willing to bet that 90% of the people that have told you it is offensive are prior service members, veterans who understand exactly what the flag stands for. Veterans who have a vested interest in this great nation. [Edited by Don W]



11Bravo, not all veterans feel that way. But a lot do. I’m a life member of the VFW, and a life member of the DAV. Yes, I’m a disabled American veteran. I believe the country is falling vastly short of caring for its wounded vets. The $29 Billion VA budget ought to be $40 billion. But we prefer to spend $6 billion a month off-budget - to avoid Congressional oversight - as weak as it is - in Iraq which has become a re-run of Vietnam. We can't win, and we don't know how to get out. And we are nearing 3,000 KIA GIS. Q. Who wants to be the last GI to die in Iraq?

I did not know flag burning was a current issue. I think the little people honor the flag a lot better than the big people we see on tv all the time. And who talk a lot about it. I find that disgusting. Pure demagoguery from draft dodgers.



[edit on 9/1/2006 by donwhite]



posted on Sep, 1 2006 @ 04:40 PM
link   

Originally posted by dgtempe
I respect the flag. We have flags here at home, currently not being flown. They're not being flown because that would be hypocrasy on my part nowadays.
Having said that, I take good care of them and have respect for them in the intrum.
I hope the day will come when i can proudly fly one again.

Should things change, i will be the first one out there flying one.

Waiting.




I feel the same way dg. I say the pledge of alleigence at work and hoist it up the flagpole on occasion. I do not fly it at home anymore though, to do so would be a hypocrit. When it becomes "We The People in order to form....) instead of "We the corporations of America in order to form a more perfect consumer..." I will then fly old glory once again, the ole flag gives me chills and a tear in the eye for what she represented.

The flag should be respected for what it stands for, and that is freedom, freedom, sweet freedom.



posted on Sep, 1 2006 @ 04:46 PM
link   

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Just curious, where did you stand on the Mohammad Cartoons fiasco?


The Mohammed cartoons were nothing more than psy-ops to foster muslim hate.

YOu dont find his avatar offencive and I am willing to bet you dont have any of yourself invested into this country. Im willing to bet that you never served, and probably never lost anyone close to you that served.

Just to be clear I saw a good quote the other day..
"I would rather see someone wrapped in the constitution, burning the flag, than wrapped in the flag, burning the consitution"

You see, many people like to hide behind the flag, or rally around it, or wear it as clothing, but to those of us that truely understand what it stands for, and the many good people that have laid down their life to keep it flying, we know that displays or usages such as nitegowns or swimsuits or diapers are very disrespectful.



posted on Sep, 1 2006 @ 05:47 PM
link   

Originally posted by 11Bravo
The Mohammed cartoons were nothing more than psy-ops to foster muslim hate.


But where did you stand on the issue? The Muslims were highly offended at this symbol of their religion being portrayed. Do your support them? They were offended, just as you are about WestPoint's avatar. Should the cartoons have been disallowed?



YOu dont find his avatar offencive and I am willing to bet you dont have any of yourself invested into this country.


WTF does that mean? Whatever it means, I'm willing to bet that you would lose money on that bet, sir.



Im willing to bet that you never served, and probably never lost anyone close to you that served.


Whether or not I've served in the military has nothing to do with this. And your having served in the military doesn't make your opinions about what should be offensive any more valid. Be offended if you like, but to call for Westie to take down his avatar is calling for him not to practice his first amendment rights.

Are you saying that you think a person has to be a military person to truly understand what it stands for? If that's what you're saying, I'll just say you're welcome to your opinion, but I strongly disagree.



Just to be clear I saw a good quote the other day..
"I would rather see someone wrapped in the constitution, burning the flag, than wrapped in the flag, burning the consitution"


I agree with this 100% I am a strict Constitutionalist. You're the one wrapping yourself in the flag and burning the Constitution here. Are you sure you understand that quote? The Constitution protects our right to free speech. To use the flag as a platform to deny Free Speech is just what you're doing.



You see, many people like to hide behind the flag, or rally around it, or wear it as clothing, but to those of us that truely understand what it stands for, and the many good people that have laid down their life to keep it flying, we know that displays or usages such as nitegowns or swimsuits or diapers are very disrespectful.


Which is more disrespectful? Dishonoring the flag or dishonoring the Constitution by disallowing Westie his first amendment rights?



[edit on 1-9-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on Sep, 1 2006 @ 05:48 PM
link   
11Bravo, please know that as I stated before my intent is not to offend anyone, however if you feel offended by my avatar then I'm sorry because there is nothing I can do, I am not going to take it down. I truly believe that I am not being degrading to the flag not am I dishonoring anyone who fought for what it stands, I have the greatest respect for the every one who has ever served this country with honor and distinction. But I must respectfully ask you to not attack my character sir, you do not know me, at all. You can think as you like but do not make accusations which are false. Thank you.

If you still cannot stand to see my avatar then you can ignore me by clicking the red ignore text under my points, if that is indeed what you want to do.

[edit on 1-9-2006 by WestPoint23]



posted on Sep, 1 2006 @ 06:45 PM
link   
Westie, I for one dont think you are disrespecting the flag at all. In fact old glory never looked better than wrapped around that "Fine lil 'merican girl". Now if you were dragging it along the ground or making a public display of burning it that would be different. I always thought you were showing how much you loved the flag by displaying it on a Goddess!



posted on Sep, 1 2006 @ 07:34 PM
link   

Originally posted by dgtempe
What can i say. For me to fly the flags it would mean that i am at peace with the current goings on....and i'm not.

I support the troops. I dont have any banners on my car stating i support them. Is that a sign that i do not support them?
Do i secretly, subconciously, not support them because i dont have a ribbon type bumper sticker?Must we show the world a symbol just so we are believed?

I support in my heart the men who do battle for our country. It is not thier fault that they were sent into that bogus war at all. Some seeking education, some, wanting to help the cause...whatever their reasons, they were good and genuine reasons with the countries best intention at heart.


For me to put up symbols at this time makes me think i'd be a hypocrit...after all, we celebrate things with symbols, dont we? I find nothing to celebrate lately with this government.


I don't think the flag stands for our current administration...

It stands for our Constitution, for what our founding fathers proclaimed in defiance of the worlds strongest empire.

It stands for the blood lost in the revolutionary war, for those who lost their lives to give us freedom.

It stands for the workers who built this nation. It stands for the power we created from scratch.

It stands for the union of our states, and the blood sacrificed in the fields of the civil war that held our ideology and strengthened our nation.

It stands for the civil strife we are still over coming, it is the symbol that all people can come together, whether agreeing or not, and live in relative peace.

It stands for the sacrifice to friends overseas in WWI and WWII, for the love of freedom that we gave lives so that others may have the same chance at life.

It stands for our culture, that anyone in the world who sees that flag, wether the opressed as a sign of hope, or the opressor as a sign to worry and fear.

It stands for the absolute power we have, in all areas wether military, cultural, or economic that we are a truly great nation. We have had bad leaders before, but we have had truly great leaders as well. That flag is not Bush's coat of arms. It represents all that goes on around you, it represents what millions would die to have.

It represents our history, and for that it is respected, not worshiped, simply respected like you respect an elder. I am sorry you feel such hatred twards our government that you will not fly the flag to respect the dead, to respect the living soldiers, to respect all that we are. I to do not agree with much of what Bush does, but I still fly my flag regarless of who sits in the white house.



posted on Sep, 1 2006 @ 07:45 PM
link   




Which is more disrespectful? Dishonoring the flag or dishonoring the Constitution by disallowing Westie his first amendment rights?

I never said he COULDNT have the picture, I said he SHOULDNT have it, out of respect for those that have died defending it.
I would die defending his right to have that pic, but in the end I would still ask him to remove it out of respect for what it represents. Its a matter of respect, and honor of dead patriots. Maybe someday you will understand, I know I didnt always understand it myself.
I used the analogy on another thread of building a ball field on the tomb of the unknown, I mean after all, baseball is the national passtime, and who cares if we offend some dead people?
I guess Im alone on this, but it makes no nevermind to me.



posted on Sep, 1 2006 @ 07:54 PM
link   
First off, it's not a tranny.

I just wanted to clear that up. There's quite a few Avi's here with trannies, and that's not one of them.

Now, on to clear up a few things:


Originally posted by 11Bravo
YOu dont find his avatar offencive and I am willing to bet you dont have any of yourself invested into this country. Im willing to bet that you never served, and probably never lost anyone close to you that served.

Just to be clear I saw a good quote the other day..
"I would rather see someone wrapped in the constitution, burning the flag, than wrapped in the flag, burning the consitution"


11Bravo, first and foremost, thank god there are people like you who feel so passionately about their country they would die to defend it. You and all soldiers like you are what keep us from being overrun by...bad guys...and stuff.

However, to suggest that someone does not have anything invested in this country, based upon what they do and do not find offensive about use of the flag is hardly fair. Not everyone was blessed to be healthy enough for any of the services, and not everyone would have found their best calling or the best way to serve their country by being there. There are millions, I'd say just slightly less than half the voting population, who love their country very much and have their entire lives invested in it.

I am personally glad people like you who are so passionate about the flag exist, because you provide a great balance to the people who would think covering a flag in feces is fun. However, I've read a lot of Westpoint's posts. They aren't a poo-flagger. Westpoint is a good patriot. You two may disagree on the use of the flag, but I bet both of you would die to keep it from being overrun by...bad guys...and stuff.




Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Whether or not I've served in the military has nothing to do with this. And your having served in the military doesn't make your opinions about what should be offensive any more valid. Be offended if you like, but to call for Westie to take down his avatar is calling for him not to practice his first amendment rights.


Well, he wasn't actually telling Westpoint to take it down, nor was he denying Westpoint any first amendment rights. In fact, 11Bravo was excercising his own First Amendment right by stating how disgusted he was with the avi, and stated what he would like Westpoint to do about it. There is nothing wrong with that. Our country was founded upon the right of people to be offended, and for them to ask someone else to stop, and explain why, and to what degree. It doesn't mean they have to comply, though, either.


Rockpuck - nice bit of prose, that.

Please, everyone, continue. I'm fascinated by this. Don't take my points as being argumentative, I'm just clarifying here and there. I like to watch the passions flare about something OTHER than what I hear every time I turn on the radio and TV for more than five minutes.




[edit on 9/1/2006 by thelibra]

[edit on 9/1/2006 by thelibra]



posted on Sep, 1 2006 @ 07:56 PM
link   
sorry in advance, wrong thread...honestly...my time is short

does anyone have the radio show call in phone number for Alex Jones?
if so, can you PM with it or post on this thread, I will be watching for it.
Not life threatening..but very important.
thxs



posted on Sep, 1 2006 @ 08:03 PM
link   
Hey Fungus... could just make a thread to ask, or u2u someone.... but to interupt this thread for that is rather rude...



posted on Sep, 1 2006 @ 08:18 PM
link   

Originally posted by 11Bravo
I used the analogy on another thread of building a ball field on the tomb of the unknown, I mean after all, baseball is the national passtime, and who cares if we offend some dead people?
I guess Im alone on this, but it makes no nevermind to me.


Nah, I'm with you, 11Bravo. I don't personally take as much offense to the flag worn as a swimsuit (I bet she could swim, albeit slowly), but I would have a conniption fit if a national monument (especially a cemetary) were plowed down so a bunch of sports divas could play with their balls.

The world's just full of people with varying ideas about what's respectful and what isn't. And to be honest, it is actually about intent, for the most part. If Westpoint were saying something like "woo-hoo, check it out, your flag got pwn by a whore!" and then proceded to sing merrily about how much he thought America sucked, it would be a far different situation than something the suggestion that maybe the idea of Lady Liberty is a bit sexy.

Many women are a Maiden, a Mother, and a Crone at some point in their lives. Lady Liberty doesn't always have to be the Old Grandma of Historical Significance, nor does she have to be the Mother of the Huddled Masses. Sometimes she can be the Lovely Temptress, whispering a sweet promise to the men who march out to defend her.



posted on Sep, 1 2006 @ 10:15 PM
link   
Originally posted by 11Bravo

I never said he COULDNT have the picture, I said he SHOULDNT have it, out of respect for those that have died defending it. I would die defending his right to have that pic, but in the end I would still ask him to remove it out of respect for what it represents.

It's your own opinion that it disrespects those who have died defending America. That is nothing but opinion. Of course, you have the right to express that opinion... but others have the right to reject that opinion and therefore not abide accordingly to it.


Its a matter of respect, and honor of dead patriots. Maybe someday you will understand, I know I didnt always understand it myself. I used the analogy on another thread of building a ball field on the tomb of the unknown, I mean after all, baseball is the national passtime, and who cares if we offend some dead people?
I guess Im alone on this, but it makes no nevermind to me.


Correction. In YOUR OPINION it's a matter of respect and honor of dead patriots. In my opinion, it has nothing to do with dead patriots... it's a flag that was designed as a logo and symbol for this nation. Taking it as a symbol of fallen heroes is in addition to the core-meaning of the flag, IMO.



new topics

top topics



 
0
<< 1    3 >>

log in

join