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Sex in Heaven ???

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posted on Sep, 1 2006 @ 08:03 PM
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dr_strangecraft


I'm only posting in reference to the words you type.

Of course I don't know what you know in the depths of your Essence.

But the fact that you keep making assumptions makes me wonder.

That's why I quoted Victor Hugo.

Not calling you an ignoramus; but I'm just saying that if the shoe fits wear it.


To compare Samael Aun Weor's(who has indeed studied the main Kabbalistic texts, authentic Buddhist Tantras, Christian Gospels, Classical Alchemical writings, Upanishads, etc.) teachings to Zionist pop-Kabbalah nonsense, shows that you continue to ignore many things without even taking a minute for serious consideration.



In reflection on my posts, it is clear that I have much work to perform in reference to the following teaching:




The Transformation of Impressions


"We must receive the unpleasant manifestations of our fellowmen with gladness."





At the same time, to sit back and allow someone to make endless assumptions without any consideration, would simply be folly on my part.


However, it is obvious that to continue to engage a 'pissing contest' would be pointless as well.

Perhaps you're set in your ways and I'm set in mine.

We can study all the scriptures in the world and in the end achieve nothing, as you've already stated.

So, all that remains is the fact that as long as we remain within the shackles of the mind...

...around and around we go in the Wheel of Samsara:










May you find Peace and attain your own Gnosis on the Path.




Regards





"Gnosis is lived upon facts, withers away in abstractions, and is difficult to find even in the noblest of thoughts."




[edit on 1-9-2006 by Tamahu]




posted on Sep, 1 2006 @ 10:26 PM
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This is all great stuff. The thread was originally intended for discussion on "Islamic Terrorism" and the rewards such terrorists attain in the afterlife. But, I like the change in direction.

One question that has plagued me for years is how we will know one another in the afterlife?

If an aquaintance dies and I live another 50 years, how will we connect once we're both dead? I've aged another 50 years and have all the life experiences to go with it. How will that person know me?

And what about situations where a person re-marries? What does the "family tree" look like in Heaven?

How do souls reconcile their prior life with the afterlife? It's all very complicated stuff -- at least in my mind.

Thanks for all your thoughtful input.



posted on Sep, 1 2006 @ 10:27 PM
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Look, all "pissing" aside,

just looking at the Hebrew and the way it is (ab)used on the gnosticteachings site tells me a great deal about what the purveyors don't know.

For instance, they all refer (as you do) to the "Shemhamphorash."

This is a typo from one of Anton Szandor LaVey's writings, that has been propogated throughout the New Age community online.

The actual Hebrew term for the expansible name is "Shem-ha-mephorash

"ha" is the definite article in Hebrew. "hamphorash" doesn't mean anything, other than the people bandying the word about have absolutely no firsthand knowledge of the topic, and are just quoting other blind guides.

====

As another example, on the "gnosticteachings" website, under "Kaballah 4: the seven days of Genesis" there appears the following:




According to the Kabbalah:

“Be” = The
“Raishath” = "Higher, or Upper Wisdom,” which is related to the Sephirah Chokmah: the cognizance that is always creating



But this isn't right.

"Be" doesn't mean "the." As wrote earlier, "ha" is the definite article in Hebrew. "B'" or "be" is a preposition, usually translated as "In." Likewise, "Resh" doesn't mean Higher. It means the first, or the initial, or the head. "eth" is a construct added to "Be-resh." This is the sole occurance of "Be-rash-eth" in the Torah. That fact is seen as highly significant in Qabalistic writings, as are the multiple interpretations unfolded from it. Yet instead of discussing historical (REAL) Qabalistic Commentaries such as Bereshet Rabbah or various sources of Aggadah, we have this spurious note about "Chokmah." Which leads me on to a further observation:

====

The website, like so much of new age teaching shows only one version of the Etz Chaim, the tree of life: With three pillars, and 10 (11) sefirot descending toward the material world, as is commonly found on the internet

This is an example of Ersatz mysticism spread by ignorant new agers. This version of the tree is just one of many described in various works. But it is the one latched onto in the 1880's by the British Occultist MacGregor Mathers, who copied it from Knorr Von Rosenroth. Mathers taught it to Crowley, Regardie, A.E. Waite and Dione Fortune, and they have spread it far and wide.

And yet that version of the tree is just one of the four manifestations, in the School of Isaac Luria, who is just one among many Qabalistic Authorities. Many outside of the Shabbatei movement never accepted his teachings. There are other, older teachings, that the NEW AGE is ignorant of. There are other realms of the tree, with layers upon layers of sephirot, but only these 10 are named in Luria's system, since they are the only ones MacGregor Mathers knew. He couldn't read Hebrew either, and so he just repeated what he had copied. The website you cite merely assigns the names of the four dimensions to various of the 10 sephirot, following the pop-Kaballah books of Dione Fortune. That has much more to do with esoteric Christianity, than it does with Qabalah.

===

And then there's the "Twelve Commandments." If the author understood the meaning of eser, and the number 10, and its superexcellent qualities, . . . if he understood the meaning of 12, he wouldn't be coming up with twelve "commandments." It's not Hebrew, it's not Biblical, it's not Qabalistical. And the Qabalah is the commentary on V'aleh Sh'mot (Exodus) par excellance.

How can anyone, who is conversant with Qabalism mention the Sephirot, without even referring to the Maaseh Merkevah, the "Workings of the Chariot" in Ezekiel's vision? If Samuel Aeon Wor is so attuned to Qabalah, why leave this out? Is he hiding things from the elect, or is it unimportant??? And how can one claim to teach anything, without teaching this??

I don't know much about Tantra. But I HAVE studed Mishnah, and learnt enough Hebrew to read the texts for myself. And what I know from personal experience indicates that the people who authored "gnosticteachings.com" know less than I do, and are misinforming the people who come looking for insight.

Likewise, your own equation of alchemy with tantra misses the breadth and sweep of alchemy through more than 3000 years of history. Alchemy has been a great many things to thousands of different people, and to equate it with a system from the Indian Subcontinent is to make a sweeping generalization that ignores a great deal. Especially since Inda has its own tradition of alchemy, as far as I know distinct from the teachings of Tantra.

So when I say that I see errors, and ignorance parading around as adept-ness, I naturally need to call it as I see it. While I may be mistaken, that is not the same as admitting that I know nothing at all; or to claim that I have passed judgment without any educated basis for having done so.

May you find real truth. REAL truth is always true. Temporary truths are merely falsehoods, cloaked in convenience.

.



posted on Sep, 2 2006 @ 12:27 AM
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Well I don't have enough knowledge of the Hebrew language to know whether your interpretations are correct or not(I've seen all too many arguements between people who both claim to know Hebrew, yet obviously either one or both of them don't know it in depth, otherwise they wouldn't be contradicting each other so much)


Also, the spelling of "Shemhamphorash" may just be used by Samael's students merely out of 'convenience', as that is the spelling that people are accustomed to.

Or maybe the spelling is not so relevant to the practical application of Wisdom? I don't know.

And there's absolutely no reason to think that Samael Aun Weor would have been influenced by anything from Anton LaVey, or even anything derivative.



Let's consider the following:




Arcanum 18: Twilight


It is necessary for our Gnostic disciples to profoundly reflect on the esoteric context of this Arcanum. We have been strongly criticized for not continuing with the already known Hebraic monotony. Indeed, we do not want to follow the same Hebraic monotony. We, Gnostics, are only interested in that which is called C-O-M-P-R-E-H-E-N-S-I-O-N.

We want our students to comprehend each Arcanum and thereafter develop it within themselves.




So let's not get so caught up in the details of grammar, which may or may not be relevant to the Tree of Life, if we have not Comprehended the Sephirah within our own Consciousness first.


And Samael Aun Weor does mention Ezekiel's Vision:

www.gnosticteachings.org...



Samael's Tradition has also addressed the various Tree of Life representations:




Buddhist Cosmology



Well, it is not so simple as that, because you have to consider there are Four Worlds:

Atziluth
Briah
Yetzirah
Assiah

Each of these is a Tree in itself.

In each sphere of each tree are myriad worlds.

The Tree we study as Ten Sephiroth is a kind of "outline" view. The reality is vastly more complex.

The fact remains that any "cosmology" is really just a way of analyzing states of consciousness. It is similar to trying to reduce the world to the image on a paper map: the world and its infinite varieties of life and experience simply do not fit onto a paper map. Within one given place on this planet you can experience a very wide range of things, from extreme pleasure to neutrality to extreme suffering: that is not transmissable to paper. Kabbalah is even more so. In each given sphere, in each given world, there is a wide range of possibilities.

Consider the physical world alone: there is the world of the very small (atomic, subatomic) and the world of the very large (galaxies, etc) and that is just in Malkuth. Every other sphere has a similar range. That is why intellectual correspondences have their limit. It is useful as a point of reference, but only just so. To extend the reference too far just creates confusion, because we do not have the consciousness even to comprehend the simple Ten Sephiroth, which are the kindergarten of Kabbalah.


P.S. - The Desire Realm is everywhere there is desire, so it penetrates even into the worlds of the Gods.




Mystical Qabalah


The fact is that the Four Worlds are a very deep and subtle truth, which is only symbolized in the Tree of Life. The breakdown Fortune gives in your quote refers to one of several ways to relate the Four Worlds to the Ten Sephiroth. So it contains some truth, but it is only one way to look at the tree. There are others.
There is a significant error in that paragraph, because Fortune accepted the point of view of her teachers. I will indicate it below.
According to my understanding, the Four Worlds are four levels of existence; each one has Ten Sephiroth (for a total of 40), but these can be synthesized and simplified in the Tree we normally refer to, which has only Ten.
Each Sephirah then can be understood as having four aspects or levels.
One can also imagine four Trees stacked upon one another, yet which are in truth interpenetrating.
Samael Aun Weor relates the first Three Worlds to the Three Triangles and the remaining Sephirah (Malkuth) to Assiah.
Atziluth (1) is related to the entire first triangle, but it is ruled by Kether.
Briah (2) is related to (or rooted in) the Second Triangle, but it is ruled by Chokmah (of the first triangle).
Yetzirah (3) is related to the third triangle, but is ruled by Binah (of the first triangle).
Assiah (4) is the fallen sephirah, the physical world.
The mistake in the quote is that Chokmah and Binah are the Father-Mother. As Samael indicated, this is not true.
Chokmah is the Son, the second Logos.
Binah (the Holy Spirit) unfolds itself into Father-Mother in order to create. That creation is in Briah, the Second World. (For more on this, read The Initiatic Path in the Arcana of Tarot and Kabbalah).
What is created by Abba-Aima manifests in Yetzirah, the Third World (the World of Formation).
The real understanding of this can only come from meditation and internal experiences, because the intellect cannot possibly grasp it.
The understanding of the Four Worlds is very important in order to understand the path and the nature of the Being. For example, in the simple Tree we understand that the Being (Atman) is in Chesed. But when you "unsynthesize" the tree and look at it in terms of the Four Worlds, the Being (Atman) is in Tiphereth in the world of Briah.
This indicates that there is truth in the breakdown of Fortune, because she says the Formative World (Yetzirah) relates to the second and third triangles; this is true because those triangles are the soul itself, which unfold from the Being. Yet, that statement needs to be understood in a deeper context, and not on the surface, because if one took that statement at surface level, one will only become more confused.
This is why Samael said that one needs a lot of meditation in order to comprehend the trimurtis.
The knowledge of the Four Worlds is part of the oral tradition, and is only occasionally mentioned in his books.

I have found NO kabbalah books other than those of Master Samael which explain the Four Worlds accurately and completely. There are thousands of varying opinions, and none are satisfactory. I recommend avoiding all those books of Kabbalah and instead learn how to meditate.
The best resources to study are the books of Samael and the website gnostickabbalah.com which offers a lot, but still requires even more meditation in order to get it.





You see?




Let's also consider the following:





Introduction to Kabbalah


Adorable and Immortal Beings,

Greetings and Adorations,

Beloved Disciples,

There are two types of Kabbalists, Intellectual Kabbalists and Intuitive Kabbalists. The Intellectual Kabbalists are Black Magicians, whilst the Intuitive Kabbalists are White Magicians.

Many times the sidereal Gods answer our questions by showing us a tarot card; we must intuitively comprehend the answer that is given onto us. Intuitive Kabbalists comprehend what destiny held in reserve to them by just seeing any card of the tarot.




It's good to study Hebrew and many other things, and utilize the intellect, but only if it is in service of the Spirit through Meditation, awakening of the Consciousness and Sexual Transmutation(Chastity).


In Light of this...:





The Hebrew Alef-Bet


The conjurations taught to us by the Master serve as a vehicle of the Verb to repel the negative forces of the ego (ours and others) and of the black lodge.

The "Flavor" of the conjuration is meaningless. It is the purpose and the action of the conjuration that interests us. If the Mantram is "Belilin, Belilin, Belilin", what does it really matter what language it is in if it serves the purpose of the Theurgist.

We do not need to build ourselves upon a mystical identity or mystical flavors, identifying ourselves with Hebrews or Hindus or whatever. A mystical personality is a difficult aggregate to conquer, because it wears the robes of sanctity and humility and changes its name to resemble a God, while inwardly it considers itself great and exhaulted-ignoring the true fact that the psyche is rotting in its tomb of the personality.

Anyways, with all that said, you should check out Eliphas Levi's book: "Transcendental Magic" for the "Invocation of Solomon"... This invocation has also been recommended by Master Samael in his book "Logos, Mantram, Theurgy".

There are many Kabbalistic Mantrams that are from the Hebrew language that can take one to the various places upon the Tree of Life and conjure evil forces. Samael knows this. Often, there are details that the Master assumes the astute student will pick when studying the works that he would recommend like: "Mystical Kabbalah" by Dion Fortune.





Of course Dion Fortune made some mistakes, which Samael Aun Weor corrected in his:


The Initiatic Path in the Arcana of Tarot and Kabbalah




Anyway, I'll have to address your other points after I go over the details of your post, as to see if I can study Hebrew more to see if you're assertions are as significant as you say, or to see if you're just nit-picking.

It would be of benefit to consider your points, and to study Hebrew, instead of just accepting anything in a dogmatic way from Samael Aun Weor or anyone else.




But I will end my post with this:


From my own experience, or Gnosis, I've seen directly what Samael Aun Weor means in regard to the necessity to stop fornicating.

And that we Transmute instead of fornicating, whether it be through Pranayama or the Arcanum A.Z.F./Maithuna, is something overlooked by most of the erudite religious teachers found in the West, both "Orthodox" and "New Age".


What good does it do to fill our heads with all these teachings and languages, if we are still fornicating and not even establishing a Solid Foundation(Yesod)?

We'll never find the Philosopher's Stone, if we reject the Corner-Stone of the Temple of the Holy Spirit, which is Sex/Chastity.




THE MIND AND SEXUALITY


1. All that has been written about the mind has been only preliminary steps towards the
sacred study of the Igneous Rose.

2. Vivekananda is one who has spoken more clearly about the mind. However, his
teachings are scarcely preliminary notions towards the serious study of the understanding.

3. The mind is intimately related with sexuality. It is impossible to study the mind
without studying the sexual matter.

4. An innumerable amount of students exist who are dedicated to Yoga and to the
teachings of Krishnamurti. However, they achieve nothing and waste their time
lamentably, because these poor beings are incessantly fornicating.





I'm certainly not accusing you, or anyone else in particular, of being a fornicator, as it is definitely none of my business(perhaps you study from a tradition that stresses the Foundation of any real Spiritual advancement, I don't know, nor do I care to; this is just a FYI if you care to consider, that is if you already haven't).

If people can at least understand this very important teaching, even if they reject the rest of what Samael Aun Weor teaches, it would be of immense value to those who wish to abandon transgressions against the Holy Spirit, as to Liberate themselves from the cycle of suffering.

This is originally taught in all Traditions, such as the various schools of Yoga, Buddhism, Gnostic Christianity, Taoism, etc.

But one wonders why this essential aspect is not receiving due attention in this Age of Aquarius(yeah I said it, the New Age) from many Teachers other than Samael Aun Weor?

This is the Key to the Mystery of "Sex in Heaven".

When one looks at the symbolism of Alchemy, one can see that that said symbolism was utilized to conceal Kundalini Yoga and Tantric teachings.

In fact, if the average European of the 1600's say, was familiar at all with Tantra or Kundalini Yoga, they would have recognized it in the Alchemical Art almost immediately.

Try looking for books on Tantric Practice/Visualizations, at www.snowlionpub.com... or www.wisdompubs.com... or Swami Sivananda's "Kundalini Yoga" from Divine Life, and see for yourself.



For more on this see the following thread:


www.abovetopsecret.com...




One more thing.


Would you also say that Eliphas Levi's interpretations of Hebrew are off?


And are you familiar with Godfrey Higgins?




Regards

[edit on 2-9-2006 by Tamahu]



posted on Sep, 2 2006 @ 10:32 AM
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I'll give you a more specific example of what I'm talking about, Tamahu. I clicked the link to S.A.W.'s info on Ezekiel's Chariot, and found this:



The World of Yetzirah is the World of Formation and of Angels.
The 10 Sephiroth in the World of Yetzirah are related to the four elements.


That statement right there is completely at odds with historical, Qabalistic writings such as the Or Ha-Bahir. Now neither Samuel Aun Weor nor anyone else is beholden to what someone wrote 1500 years ago; but if they claim to teach Kaballah, then they ought to be doing so. Perhaps this is why the term "gnostic kaballah" crops up so often; it may be a way of saying, "yes but our system is different, so you cannot measure us by what is generally considered to be the historical stream of Qabalistical studies."

more about that in a minute.

Here's another quote from the same page:




the Chaioth ha Kadosh are the Seraphim of Christianity, these are Beings that prepare themselves to enter into the World of Briah, Cosmocreators.



The Chaioth ha Kadosh are "Holy Living Creatures," 4 beings who hold up the corners of the divine throne in the chariot of Ezekiel's vision. There are only 4 of them. Meanwhile, the seraphim are understood to be an order of angels, implying that there are more than 4 of them. The seraphim are usually immagined as being inferior to Cherubim, and not synonymous with the only 4 beings in the whole universe who exist entirely within the immediate presence of God.

The word Seraphim only occurs in the old testament, Numbers 21 and Isaiah 6. Seraphim is a Hebrew word, and never occurs in the New Testament, which is written entireley in Greek.

Yet the website says that "the Chaioth ha Kadosh are the Seramphim of Christianity"

And what specifically about the Chaioth ha Kadosh (Holy living Creatures of Ezekiel's vision) are either Seraphim or Christian? The new testament only has the slightest references to Ezekiel, and never to the content of his vision. It is not a part of any standard Christian document; I'd be very surprised if you could find any papal bull or church doctrine among the major protestant denominations that even references Seraphim or defines their role in the Christian world-view.

My third problem with the discussion of Ezekiel's vision is that it's barely three pages long! Personally, I don't think you can sum up dozens of ancient manuscripts with a couple of pictures of Isaac Luria's tree of life diagram, (re-worked and mislabeled) and several paragraphs that don't even begin to address the text on a line-by-line basis.

Look, you and the purveyors of that website are welcome to believe whatever you want. But I see innaccuracies and glosses that are so disconnected with the original material, that it's misleading to claim it authoritatively references that historical material.



Validity refers to whether or not an argument is really true. Tamahu, I take it you have convinced yourself that S.A.W's teachings have validity.

Authenticity on the other hand, refers to whether an argument or teaching is what it claims to be.

It might for example be valid to say that I am German, because my heritage is German. But I am not an authentic German, since I am not now, nor have ever been a legal citizen of that nation.


Now my claim is that Samuel Aun Weor's writings as portrayed on the Gnosticteachings website are not authentic, because the are not accurate representations of the knowledge they claim to teach. Notice that I cannot say whether they are valid for you or anyone else. Only you can make that call.

However, for me personally, if some teaching or manuscript is not authentic, then I personally simply cannot accept it as being valid, either. And that's the reason for my conviction that Samuel Aun Weor's system is not valid: because it is not authentic.

.
[edit for quote marks]

[edit on 2-9-2006 by dr_strangecraft]



posted on Sep, 2 2006 @ 05:29 PM
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Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
I'll give you a more specific example of what I'm talking about, Tamahu. I clicked the link to S.A.W.'s info on Ezekiel's Chariot, and found this:

"The World of Yetzirah is the World of Formation and of Angels.
The 10 Sephiroth in the World of Yetzirah are related to the four elements."

That statement right there is completely at odds with historical, Qabalistic writings such as the Or Ha-Bahir. Now neither Samuel Aun Weor nor anyone else is beholden to what someone wrote 1500 years ago;




Can we get a quote from the Ha-Bahir showing how this an explicit contradiction?

(Will you also tell me of a good English translation from a non-Zionist author?)


The Four Elements also have to be understood in a wider context, and not just as the Four Elements found in Yetzirah or Assiah.

An example, are Four of the Dhyani Buddhas each represented by a different color(Red, Blue, Yellow, Green and White, to list all Five).

The Dhyani Buddhas also represent the Sephiroth in Atziluth.

These same colors are also related to the Four Elements in the lower Spheres and Worlds as well(of course in Kabbalah, colors do have different meanings in different Worlds and Spheres and is quite complex; same as in Buddhist Cosmology)

I don't know much more about this, but it illustrates that not everything is written with words on paper in any scripture.

We have to go deeper than just taking everything literally(which Westerners are infamous for).




but if they claim to teach Kaballah, then they ought to be doing so. Perhaps this is why the term "gnostic kaballah" crops up so often; it may be a way of saying, "yes but our system is different, so you cannot measure us by what is generally considered to be the historical stream of Qabalistical studies."




That online course is only introductory Kabbalah(see the quote from "Buddhist Cosmology" in my last post).

These teachings, as well as the writings of Samael Aun Weor, are only tools which allow us to AWAKEN OUR CONSCIOUSNESS ON OUR OWN.

The 65+ books and hundreds of lectures that he wrote/spoke are said to contain only 3% of what he knows regarding Religion, but also contain the Keys which will allow us to gain our own Understanding in the Internal Worlds, so that we can decipher with Comprehension what is written in the Ha-Bahir, Sepher-Yetzirah, Ha-Zohar, Vedas, Gospels, Zhang Zhung Nyan Gyud, Pert Em Heru, etc.; as said scripture's meanings are already within our Consciousness, although much of our Consciousness is trapped within the ego that blinds us from Seeing what is Within.

Samael encourages students to counter-check his teachings with the authentic Scriptures, along with Meditation and Transmutation(God is not going to reveal much of anything to the intellect of fornicators), for us to See for ourselves.






"the Chaioth ha Kadosh are the Seraphim of Christianity, these are Beings that prepare themselves to enter into the World of Briah, Cosmocreators."



The Chaioth ha Kadosh are "Holy Living Creatures," 4 beings who hold up the corners of the divine throne in the chariot of Ezekiel's vision. There are only 4 of them. Meanwhile, the seraphim are understood to be an order of angels, implying that there are more than 4 of them. The seraphim are usually immagined as being inferior to Cherubim, and not synonymous with the only 4 beings in the whole universe who exist entirely within the immediate presence of God.




Well you can believe what you want, but Esotericism at least implies that the 4 Beings are in reference to 4 Levels of Being(that anyone can attain) symbolized by the Holy Living Creatures.

Everything in the Universe is contained within Man, as Man is contained within the Universe(sound familiar?)

To see The One God, or any of His/Her aspects as Being something only 'external', contradicts the teachings of Kabbalah or any other Esoteric system(or am I misunderstanding what you've implied?)

God is within, although for the most part latent in most of us(as seen by our silly and blasphemous thoughts, words and deeds).

When we Comprehend and Incarnate all the aspects of the Being within ourselves, we can then Be Adam Kadmon Made Flesh, so to speak; a Paramarthasatya.

You don't think the Divine Throne is latent within every one of us?

Sorry, but to speak in the Nation of Islam terminology, I'll say that I can't buy the spook-god in the sky that the greedy Pastor or Zionist Rabbi tries to sell us.


Also, the Jewish Kabbalists and Christian Kabbalists for some reason assign the Seraphim to different levels of the Tree.

Samael has addressed this in his main book on Kabbalah.




The word Seraphim only occurs in the old testament, Numbers 21 and Isaiah 6. Seraphim is a Hebrew word, and never occurs in the New Testament, which is written entireley in Greek.

Yet the website says that "the Chaioth ha Kadosh are the Seramphim of Christianity"




What about the Gnostic Gospels?

Are you going to tell me that none of them are Christianity?

Of course some of those Gospels are phony, but to discount them all as not Being the Words of Master Yeshua, would be assumptive as hell.




And what specifically about the Chaioth ha Kadosh (Holy living Creatures of Ezekiel's vision) are either Seraphim or Christian? The new testament only has the slightest references to Ezekiel, and never to the content of his vision. It is not a part of any standard Christian document; I'd be very surprised if you could find any papal bull or church doctrine among the major protestant denominations that even references Seraphim or defines their role in the Christian world-view.




Who cares?

The Roman Church(for the most part) and many of the Protestant Churches are liars anyway, who only want to control the ignorant multitudes.

Don't get me wrong, everything the Preacher says is true, if he's reading directly from the scriptures without adding his prejudiced and fanatical interpretations(which is still shaky at times, as the translations of Scriptures have been mangled in certain areas).

And we like the teachings of Eliphas Levi, Athanasius Kircher, Thomas A. Kempis and a few Rosicrucian and other Protestants; but as I said, the clergy are infamous for hiding things on purpose, or out of ignorance.

There's a difference between concealing teachings with language that the Consciousness can Comprehend/unveil and outright lying and hiding things.




My third problem with the discussion of Ezekiel's vision is that it's barely three pages long! Personally, I don't think you can sum up dozens of ancient manuscripts with a couple of pictures of Isaac Luria's tree of life diagram, (re-worked and mislabeled) and several paragraphs that don't even begin to address the text on a line-by-line basis.




I've already addressed this.

It was never the intent to sum it up in three pages of words.

If one wants to study the basics of Kabbalah and then learn to meditate; they can find and study Isaac Luria's teachings for themselves and write their own line-for-line commentary with Awakened Consciousness!(the ego and external and intermediate minds can never produce an accurate commentary of course. Only the Inner-Mind, God, the Consciousness can do it).

The goal of the Masters is to elevate us to their level, not to turn out blind-sheep.

The biggest thing we have to worry about with all this is the elimination of the ego, so that we don't mistake the ego(Satan) for God(the Consciousness).




Look, you and the purveyors of that website are welcome to believe whatever you want. But I see innaccuracies and glosses that are so disconnected with the original material, that it's misleading to claim it authoritatively references that historical material.




You still haven't illustrated that this is the case.


Perhaps you can speak Hebrew, which puts me at a disadvantage in regard to addressing certain nuances(which, as stated earlier, I'll have to study Hebrew and perhaps get back to you some time); but your apparent superior(and I do mean apparent) historical knowledge and seemingly-exoteric interpretations are not satisfactory, especially if you really think that the Holy Creatures and Archangels, etc. are something completely external.





[edit on 2-9-2006 by Tamahu]



posted on Sep, 2 2006 @ 05:49 PM
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Validity refers to whether or not an argument is really true.

Tamahu, I take it you have convinced yourself that S.A.W's teachings have validity.



Not all of it, no.

But Samael has given one of the main Keys for even establishing a solid Foundation, in order to attain practical knowledge, and not just intellectualism and blind-faith.




Authenticity on the other hand, refers to whether an argument or teaching is what it claims to be.

It might for example be valid to say that I am German, because my heritage is German. But I am not an authentic German, since I am not now, nor have ever been a legal citizen of that nation.




This is all irrelevant to the discussion.

We're dealing with words from various cultures, that only dress the actual Eternal Principles to be Comprehended.

For example: Chesed/Gedulah is said to be the same as the Indian Atma, or the Kemetian BA.

Different words that describe the same reality.

But how do we verify is this is true?

Only God knows what is authentic and what is not.

And God is within.

So only YOU, or I could say WE(the problem is finding out who "WE" really are, through prayer and meditation) can verify what is authentic and what is not.


Until you can show us direct quotes from scriptures that blatantly contradict what Samael Aun Weor says regarding them; we'll just keep going in circles, as we are only debating based on our own (perhaps limited)understandings which may, or may not, be anywhere near complete.




Notice that I cannot say whether they are valid for you or anyone else. Only you can make that call.




At least we agree on this, if not in the same context.

Although Validity is Objective, so if we misinterpret any scripture based on subjective reasonings of the egos, we must pay the consequence(Karma).




However, for me personally, if some teaching or manuscript is not authentic, then I personally simply cannot accept it as being valid, either. And that's the reason for my conviction that Samuel Aun Weor's system is not valid: because it is not authentic.




Around and around we go huh?


There is Truth to be found in the Thelemic phrase:


"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be the Whole of the Law..."


But the question is: Who art "THOU"? Right?


(And no, Aleister Crowley did not coin this phrase, incase anyone thinks that he did)




amirfatir.tripod.com...


"Man, Know Thyself" was written at the entry ways of the Egyptian Mystery Schools. The Egyptians understood that knowledge of self was the most valuable knowledge one could possess. Its opposite, ignorance of Self, was the source of all the ills in the world...






[edit on 2-9-2006 by Tamahu]



posted on Sep, 2 2006 @ 10:09 PM
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Originally posted by Tamahu

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
I'll give you a more specific example of what I'm talking about, Tamahu. I clicked the link to S.A.W.'s info on Ezekiel's Chariot, and found this:

"The World of Yetzirah is the World of Formation and of Angels.
The 10 Sephiroth in the World of Yetzirah are related to the four elements."

That statement right there is completely at odds with historical, Qabalistic writings such as the Or Ha-Bahir.


Can we get a quote from the Ha-Bahir showing how this an explicit contradiction?



Paragraph 126, second verse:

"Ha memshelah ha shneiyit Chaiyot hakadosh v'Ophanim v'Gilili ha Merkavah u'Khol ugedodaiv shel ha-Qavaiyah . . . vameketerin vashalosh qodeshah

[The second dominion is composed of the Holy living Creatures, the order of angels called the auphanim, and the workings of the chariot and all the troops of the holy one. . . and they crown him three-wise.]

Paragraph 127, first verse:

Vamo'i n'yehu shalosh valo arba' mephanisheqodeshot?

[why are there given three and not four holy praises that are given ? ]


In other words, it is the second world (Beriah, not Yetzirah), or "Second Dominion," which is the world of all the angels, From the four Holy living Creatures of Ezekiel's intimate vision, all the way down to the lowest order of angels. THAT world is symbolized by the number three, rather than the number 4.

You mentioned "Sephirot, and Buddhas in Atziluth." There are no sephirot in Atzilut, much less any Buddhas(!)"





(Will you also tell me of a good English translation from a non-Zionist author?)



Non-Zionist? You're kidding, right? How should I know what some author's political views are? I cannot think of any political authors who've written translations on the Bahir . . . Oh, wait a sec, maybe you are speaking in code, for someone who's not a JEW. Hate to break it to ya, Tamahu, but the original author of the Or haBahir, Rabbi Nahunnia, was probably a Zionist. maybe a JEW, even.

The above translation was by me, personally, by the way. I'm not a Jew. But you'd probably call me a zionist, since I can read Hebrew . . . .





Sorry, but to speak in the Nation of Islam terminology, I'll say that I can't buy the spook-god in the sky that the greedy Pastor or Zionist Rabbi tries to sell us.


Well, don't believe it then. But why then do you keep quoting from these sources, if you don't believe in their God? Doesn't it seem sort of hypocritical, to say that they don't have the truth, but you keep appealing to their authority?




Who cares?


Well, if they don't matter, why are they mentioned on that website??? When sources are misrepresented, even if I personally don't believe in them, it makes me think the author either doesn't know, or maybe like you doesn't care about the difference between truth and falsehood.

You're the one holding up this hodgepodge of different faiths up as the only sane metaphysics. You sure denigrate other people's religion, and yet you get defensive as hell if anyone asks why you think this gnostic stuff is so important . . .




There's a difference between concealing teachings with language that the Consciousness can Comprehend/unveil and outright lying and hiding things.


Which is why I'm taking the time to point out the problems with "Samael's" school of pseudo-gnosticism. But maybe you'd prefer to go back to your "who the hell cares" stance.


Anyway, check this out:

Samuel Aun Weor's organization website, AGEAC,says this:



Yes, Samael Aun Weor (DIVINE WORD according to the phonetic Kabbalistic tradition and JUSTICE OF GOD according to the orthodox Hebraic texts), has travelled again the sea of the existence, the spheres of the Aeons, the rounds of crystallization of matter.


The problem with the above statement is that it definitely implies that "Samael Aun Weor" means divine word in either the "phonetic Kabalistic tradition, or "orthodox Hebraic texts."

It does not. The Hebrew word for Holy or divine is "Kadosh." The Hebrew word for "word," is "D'bar." You will notice that his name doesn't contain either of these Hebrew words; nor can it be transformed into them, using any of the primary forms of Notariqon or Gematria.

His first name, "Samael" is certainly an interesting choice.

In Jewish tradition, Samael, which means "BLINDED BY GOD," is a demon of spiritual blindness, who misleads the unwary.

Let's look at an authentic Gnostic document, from the fourth century AD, it comes from the manuscripts found at Nag Hammadi, Egypt, in 1945, called The Hypostasis of the Archons:

Hypostasis of the Archons

And here's how the beginning of Hypostasis reads:




Their chief is blind; because of his power and his ignorance and his arrogance he said, with his power, "It is I who am God; there is none apart from me." When he said this, he sinned against the entirety. And this speech got up to incorruptibility; then there was a voice that came forth from incorruptibility, saying, "You are mistaken, Samael" - which is, "god of the blind." His thoughts became blind. And, having expelled his power - that is, the blasphemy he had spoken - he pursued it down to chaos and the abyss, his mother, at the instigation of Pistis Sophia.



Now, why would anyone choose this name for himself, being aware that the name in the Gnostic tradition, which he claims to explicate, why would he choose the name of a particularly negative, blasphemous, demon???

It would be like someone who claims to be an inspired Christian choosing a name like "Judas" or "Caiaphas."

Samuel Aun Weor is close enough to the offspring in that document, though, saying that "God is within." That teaching is at the core of his teaching, right? The gnostics of the 4th cent AD didn't believe that. Ergo, anyone (Samael A.S.) who tells you they did must not be gnostic.

The Gnostics who wrote Hypostasis of the Archons never believed that God was within the individual. They believe this to be the first, and foundational, blasphemy.

You still a gnostic, Tamahu???

.







[edit on 2-9-2006 by dr_strangecraft]



posted on Sep, 2 2006 @ 10:13 PM
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Originally posted by Double Helix
I saw this video clip and thought it would be a good segway into discussion about sex in Heaven -- specifically the "72 Virgins" enjoyed by Islamic martyrs. If you're dead and non-corporeal, then what's the point of having sex in the afterlife? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought sex was primarily for procreation. Why is it important that "virgins" exist in Heaven to serve their "masters"?

Anyway, check out the comic video and let us know what you think.

www.youtube.com...


If there isn't sex in heaven, I for one am walking out!

The whole 72 virgin deal may be a translation that was once 72 white raisons or something like that, I'm sure if you google it youll find it somewhere. Much like the bible alot of the stories where mistranslated to sound more appealing.



posted on Sep, 3 2006 @ 02:53 AM
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See how you fight and aim for victory instead of working together in the form of peace and calmness for truth? Philosophy is not about winning, it is about dropping prejudices and finding truth.



posted on Sep, 3 2006 @ 04:22 AM
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a conspiracy site www.thefreedictionary.com... to un- enslave the mind/body of mis-truths... ohh yess, we should be working to-get-her for the Trurth...

The sex/passion/emotions of Heaven is within us n in our mist...

Now 'boys' lets stop fighting...

And 'focus' on the goddesses of Heavenly Sex/Passsion and their Excellant Emotions ...

LOL
mariaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa



posted on Sep, 4 2006 @ 06:05 PM
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Well I could keep this pissing-contest going, but it doesn't look like it would ever end; so, I'm done.


Learn Hebrew, choose Universal Gnosis, choose a single specific platform, or do whatever you will...


Just make sure to Build your House on the Rock and not on sand.


And don't take everything literally; utilize that right-hemisphere of the brain(and the Consciousness that is beyond both hemispheres).



We truly are in the last days...; it's either Sink-in the sexual waters(fornication) or Swim(Chastity, with help of the Divine Mother Kundalini-Shekinah).


We have to define ourselves either for Yahowah/Jehovah-Christ(The White Lodge of all races, colors and creeds), or for Yahweh/Javhe-Satan(The Zionist Black Lodge who hates the real Jews).











To choose the Divine Mother(Shakti-Shekinah) or the Whore(Lilith and Nahemah).



Because the Great Arcanum is the only way to Build on a solid Foundation(Yesod) of Rock and not on sand!



LINK: Sex: The Secret Gate to Eden





May All Sentient Beings Be Liberated from suffering!



posted on Sep, 4 2006 @ 06:15 PM
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And this doesn't in any way mean that I'm conceding to anything.


Just decided it would be best to not keep wasting energy on trying to convince cynical-skeptics, who apparently already know it all, and who take almost everything literally.


No grudges or anything(even if I might seem angry), but I'm done.




Best Regards



posted on Sep, 8 2006 @ 03:42 PM
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Leading to the acuall topic of this thread Sex in heaven. The answer i believe is no. Sex is unpeer. unholy. In heaven there can be no unholy things. Plus saying there is not sex in heaven because there are not bodies only spirit is wrong. IF you read revelations chapter 4-5 God sit on a chair holding the scroll of seven seals in his right hand. If God was only a spirit how did he sit in a chair, and why does it say (IN HIS RIGHT HAND) hAND hAND. That is a key word. Why did the other 24 elders surrounding God in 24 thrones.??? Some were in the new testment I believe it even answer that question.



posted on Sep, 8 2006 @ 06:45 PM
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Originally posted by slymattb
Leading to the acuall topic of this thread Sex in heaven. The answer i believe is no. Sex is unpeer. unholy.










Normal Sexuality


...All negative mental attitudes can lead directly or indirectly to these violent and destructive catastrophes of sexual energy. Hatred of sex, hatred of the Arcanum A.Z.F. disgust or repugnance towards sex, disdain for sex, an underestimation of sex, Fear of sex, passionate jealousy, sexual cynicism, sexual sadism, obscenity, pornography, sexual brutality, etc., turn the human being into an infrasexual...


...When man and woman unite sexually in the Perfect Matrimony, they are truly ineffable Gods in those voluptuous moments. Man and woman united sexually form a divine Androgynous being, a male-female Elohim, a terrifically divine Divinity. The two halves, separated since the dawn of life are united for one instant in order to create. This is ineffable... sublime... this is a thing of paradise...


...In Lemuria, no human being ejaculated the Semen. Then, couples united sexually in the temples to create. During those moments, the lunar hierarchies knew how to utilize one spermatozoon and one egg in order to create without the necessity of the couple reaching the orgasm and seminal ejaculation. No one spilled the semen. The sexual act was a sacrament which was only performed within the temple. Woman in that time gave birth to children without pain, and the serpent was raised victoriously through the medullar canal. In that epoch, human beings had not yet left Eden, all of Nature obeyed them, and they knew neither pain nor sin. The tenebrous Lucifers were the ones who showed humans how to spill the semen. The original sin of our first parents was the crime of spilling the semen. That is Fornication. When the paradisiacal human being fornicated, he then penetrated the kingdom of the Lucifers. The human being of this day and age is luciferic...


...The struggle of many monks, nuns, anchorites, pseudo-yogis, etc., to bottle up sex within their religious fanaticism, to confine it to the prison of their penitence, to muzzle it or sterilize it, to prohibit all creative manifestation, etc., converts the fanatics into a slave of their own passions. They become slaves of sex, incapable of thinking about anything other than sex. These are the ones who are fanatic about sex. These are the degenerates ones of infra-sexuality. These people discharge their energy every night with disgusting nocturnal emissions or acquire homosexual vices or masturbate miserably. Wanting to confine sex is like wanting to bottle up the Sun. A man like this is the most abject slave of sex without any benefit or true pleasure. A man like this is an unhappy sinner. A woman like this is a sterile mule, a vile slave of that which she wants to enslave (sex). The enemies of the Holy Spirit are people of the Abyss. It would have been better for these people if they had never been born or if they "tied a millstone around their necks and hurled themselves to the bottom of the sea."





You see?



We ought to consider the following as well:





Klipoth 7: Saturn


...But the opposite are the enemies of the Holy Spirit - the fornicators.

In the Seventh Sphere of Hell, related with the negative aspect of Saturn, you find all the enemies of the Holy Spirit. They declare themselves enemies of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes they do it consciously, sometimes unconsciously.

Dante Alighieri found Priests there, in the Seventh Sphere, who were celibate. Of course, when someone doesn't conquer the dominion of the sexual force in their physical body, and rejects the sexual act, but ignores how to transmute, they are an enemy of the Holy Spirit.

These people think they can reach God by rejecting the sexual act - they ignore that in order to reach that level one needs first of all to teach the physical body how to transmute in the physical act and to create the Wedding Garment of the Soul, to reach the Second Birth.

They are enemies of the Holy Spirit - most of them have nocturnal pollutions, wet dreams, where all of the energy of the Holy Spirit spills out of their body. They fornicate when they have that type of dream, because Fornication is when the sexual matter leaves the sexual organs - that is fornication. Whether it is by masturbation, or wet dream, or whether in legitimate matrimony - it doesn't matter how the sexual matter leaves the body, if it is spilled, it is fornication, it is written.



And if any man's Semen go out from him during copulation, then he shall wash all his flesh in (the sexual) waters (of Yesod), and be unclean until the even (Klipoth).

The woman also with whom man shall lie with semen during copulation, they shall both bathe themselves in (the sexual) waters (of Yesod), and be unclean until the even (Klipoth). - Leviticus15:16, 18



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