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Masons and capitalism

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df1

posted on Sep, 1 2006 @ 03:32 PM
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The major failure of freemasonry in america is not too much freemasonic involvement in politics, but rather the total lack of freemasonic involvement in politics. The prohibition of political discussion within freemasonic lodges may promote harmony among brothers, but the price of this harmony is the abdication of our political/governmental system to the unsavory elements of our society. Given the rampant dishonesty and corruption that is eating at very core of the american republic, imho it is once again time for freemasonry to reinvolve itself in the american political process rather than silently giving tacit approval to the cult of corruption that permeates all levels of our government.

I am not precisely sure when freemasonry formally divorced itself from the american political process, but I am absolutely sure it was a grave error.

Do any other masons share my views?
.




posted on Sep, 1 2006 @ 03:37 PM
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masonry promotes unity and brotherly love, how can talking about politics in lodge help that cause. politics and religion are the two major causes of fights in the outside world. why would bringing in a political debate in lodge help the outside world? all it would do is bring the outside probems in the lodge, bro. would argue and bicker, then break off into different points of view then use that to further break up the lodge to right wing and left wing lodges and so forth


df1

posted on Sep, 1 2006 @ 04:54 PM
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Originally posted by doggmann
all it would do is bring the outside probems in the lodge...

The lodge is not seperate from the rest of country, the outside problems have and will continue enter our lodges with or without freemasonic political action.



break up the lodge to right wing and left wing lodges and so forth

My views have nothing to do with endorsing any particular economic or political ideology, it has to do with getting individuals in office that believe in honesty, fairness and integrity in government . My ideology of preference is libertarian, however I would vote for an honest & just liberal over a corrupt conservative and I would vote for an honest & just conservative over a corrupt liberal.

The political influence of freemasonry was present at the signing of the Declaration of Independence & the US Constitution.. Additionally freemasonry was well represented at the boston tea party. The american nation would never have existed had the revolutionary war era freemasons sat silently on the sidelines like the freemasons of present day?

It seems to me that no organization is better suited to take the lead in promoting honesty in politics & government than is freemasonry. And no organization has more of a historical precident for doing so than freemasonry. The influence of freemasonry has been at the forefront of nearly every great political change down through history and it should be at the forefront today.

[edit on 1-9-2006 by df1]



posted on Sep, 1 2006 @ 05:04 PM
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im sorry but i disagree. masons in the past have been active politically but have recieved nothing but contempt for it.and now the masons are speculated as founders of conspiracy and the like. but it does say in the ritual that outside differences and contentions should be left at the door and not brought into the lodge. if a mason wants to be active in the development of his country then by all means. but dont come to lodge with certain political views on how things should be.can you say demit



posted on Sep, 1 2006 @ 05:18 PM
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Originally posted by df1
I am not precisely sure when freemasonry formally divorced itself from the american political process, but I am absolutely sure it was a grave error.

Do any other masons share my views?


I strongly disagree on two points:

1) That Freemasonry should be involved directly in politics.

2) That Freemasonry was once involved in politics, but divorced itself.

My feeling is that politics should be left at the lodge room door. The fraternity should NEVER get itself involved in outside politics. It would turn us into something we really shouldn't be... secular. And at some point, someone would have to decide which way we would be going... bad idea.

That said, nothing prevents a brother from being political outside of lodge, or from banding together outside of lodge with other brothers. In fact, I'd say it is *encouraged*... what better way to change the system for the better than to rationally present your case, get folks that agree with you, and make it happen through the system?

That's what happened in the past... brothers left the lodge hall, and stepped onto their own soapboxes. In fact, they'd often step onto *different* ones... the founding fathers strongly disagreed on some very fundimental issues.

However, they did what I'd recommend in the present: they took some of the values of masonry with them, into their outside lives... subdual of passions, rational thought, compassion for the greater good. They *worked* out their differences; that is why they are remembered as Masons, despite disparate views.


df1

posted on Sep, 1 2006 @ 06:02 PM
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Originally posted by doggmann
im sorry but i disagree.

Disagreement is a good thing, it results in an exchange of ideas.



masons in the past have been active politically but have recieved nothing but contempt for it.

Masons today do nothing politically but we are still accused of a variety of fictional atrocities with contempt.



but it does say in the ritual that outside differences and contentions should be left at the door and not brought into the lodge.

Masonic ritual and law have not remained static down through the ages, obviously at some point political activity was not prohibited. Do you have a reference as to when the political prohibition was first imposed? I suspect it was sometime during the "anti-mason" political party era, however I have no references.



can you say demit

Can you say unmasonic? Im offended that you would insult me by suggesting that I demit because I have proposed an idea which you do not like. Does intolerant crap like this work well in your lodge?
.



posted on Sep, 1 2006 @ 06:48 PM
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i think capitalism should have restrictions. it's not right for so few to have so much and so many to have so little. it stunts development. think of currency as a river and if you blockade that river to one source, the river will slow down and perhaps stop completely and dry up



posted on Sep, 1 2006 @ 10:44 PM
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I think people should be rewarded for their hard work, and for the risks they take.

That's the essence of capitalism.

Capitalism makes a lot of people rich. America is an example of that, where even the poor are often better off than the entrepreneurial classes of other nations.

If people who owned businesses were not rewarded for taking risks, innovation would grind to a halt.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of capitalism. I'm actually an enthusiast of Free Enterprise. The problem is, you kind of need both of them, in order to have either. Without the ability to OWN things, I'm not going to get out and bust my butt, just to make the state rich, and pay for some people who don't want to work.

Likewise, the strength of capitalism is the FREEDOM TO FAIL. Bad business are supposed to go under, and better businesses make a profit and higher more people and give out raises.

The problems start when we prop up failing businesses. That becomes either socialism, or an oligopoly (ruling class).

The masons don't have anything to do with it. It's merely the basic principles of economics, and rewarding people for hard work.

.



posted on Sep, 1 2006 @ 10:57 PM
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I'd like to point one thing out:

Masons exist and participate in countries that consider themselves to be socialist, capitalist, and communist.

If you want to bash the American version of capitalism (or any other for that matter), knock your socks off... but the topic was ostensibly about masons being corrupt, and forcing capitalism down everyone's throats so that they would prosper.



posted on Sep, 2 2006 @ 12:16 AM
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Originally posted by Hobbes
I'd like to point one thing out:

Masons exist and participate in countries that consider themselves to be socialist, capitalist, and communist.

If you want to bash the American version of capitalism (or any other for that matter), knock your socks off... but the topic was ostensibly about masons being corrupt, and forcing capitalism down everyone's throats so that they would prosper.


Hobbes,

Do you believe that masons place thier values above economic systems?



posted on Sep, 2 2006 @ 12:24 AM
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Originally posted by dr_strangecraft

I think people should be rewarded for their hard work, and for the risks they take.

That's the essence of capitalism.


If I trully believe that the masons control all business owners and politicians then I am taking a risk by exsposing thier diabolical plan to rule the world, yes?

Shouldn't I be rewarded for exposing their plan to destroy tye world?




posted on Sep, 2 2006 @ 12:28 AM
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Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
The problems start when we prop up failing businesses. That becomes either socialism, or an oligopoly (ruling class).


Well this is the real problem isn't it?

Socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor.



posted on Sep, 2 2006 @ 01:50 PM
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Originally posted by df1
We Need Masonry In American Politics...

It's very easy to get mixed up between masons and masonry. Even freemasons do it LOL.

Freemasonry never has, and never will be involved in politics or religion, nor will it ever have an opinion on anything other than itself and its modus operandi.

Freemasons, on the other hand, have a long and distinguished history of involvement in many aspects of society, including politics, and for the most part it has been extremely positive. But these people do not get involved because they are freemasons per se, but because they are good men and they wish to help. They just happen to be freemasons, and although this is clearly more than just a co-incidence it would be equally true to say that these men were good, honest upright Christian citizens with a sense of honor, virtue and integrity.

Which is pretty much the same as being a US freemason.

So although I strongly disagree that we need more (or indeed any) masonry in politics, I do feel that more masons in politics would be a very good thing.

[edit on 9/2/06 by Trinityman]



posted on Sep, 2 2006 @ 05:34 PM
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Originally posted by In nothing we trust

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
The problems start when we prop up failing businesses. That becomes either socialism, or an oligopoly (ruling class).


Well this is the real problem isn't it?

Socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor.


The thing is, socialism is its own punishment. By making people less competitive, by making corporations less able to function efficiently, they pave the way for more free enterprise-oriented entities.

By and large, the rich don't benefit from special rules that don't apply to you. For instance, when it comes to investing, they get the same rates as you do. They may get a break on brokers' comissions, by purchasing in large orders; but such savings will not create a profit in a losing investment. Neither will higher rates have much impact on a fundamentally sound investment.

Plenty of the "idle rich" absolutely suck at investing. (I've seen this first hand) It's one of the reasons that the average American millionaire is first-generation rich.

The book The Millionaire Next Door documents this phenomenon.

.



posted on Sep, 2 2006 @ 05:41 PM
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Originally posted by In nothing we trust
Do you believe that masons place thier values above economic systems?


I'm really not sure how to answer that... what do principles such as Charity and Subdual of Base Passions have to do with economics?

I'll be happy to answer once you clarify your question.



posted on Sep, 5 2006 @ 03:01 AM
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Originally posted by dr_strangecraft

Originally posted by In nothing we trust

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
The problems start when we prop up failing businesses. That becomes either socialism, or an oligopoly (ruling class).


Well this is the real problem isn't it?

Socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor.


The thing is, socialism is its own punishment. By making people less competitive, by making corporations less able to function efficiently, they pave the way for more free enterprise-oriented entities.


Not if the corportions seek the protection of the government to eliminate unwanted domestic competition. The elites (The richest 1/10th of 1%) of america are an oligopoly (ruling class). They are using the government to eliminate competition from the other economic classes.

They think that they can take thier wealth with them when they die. I say that we help them out with that.

[edit on 5-9-2006 by In nothing we trust]



posted on Sep, 5 2006 @ 07:49 AM
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Originally posted by In nothing we trust


Not if the corportions seek the protection of the government to eliminate unwanted domestic competition.


Which, in reality, is exactly what they do.



The elites (The richest 1/10th of 1%) of america are an oligopoly (ruling class). They are using the government to eliminate competition from the other economic classes.


Agreed. And back to your original inquiry, even though Masonry makes no statement on economics, it is my personal opinion that democratic socialism most conforms with the fraternity's teachings on charity and the brotherhood of man.

[edit on 5-9-2006 by Masonic Light]



posted on Sep, 5 2006 @ 12:04 PM
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Originally posted by Masonic Light
... even though Masonry makes no statement on economics, it is my personal opinion that democratic socialism most conforms with the fraternity's teachings on charity and the brotherhood of man.


Masonic memebership has been steadily declining for years.

I think your church is pretty much dead.



posted on Sep, 5 2006 @ 12:34 PM
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Originally posted by In nothing we trust

Masonic memebership has been steadily declining for years.


Actually, Masonic membership has pretty much always fluctuated. Membership has been steadily increasing over the past 10 years. In my opinion, this is due to several factors:

1. Increased publicity through movies such as "National Treasure", and TV shows on the History Channel, National Geographic, etc.

2. Younger people are becoming more spiritual, but less inclined toward traditional religion. Many view Freemasonry as a non-religious search for spiritual meaning.


I think your church is pretty much dead.


As an official card-carrying heathen, it would certainly cramp my style and damage my reputation to be found in any sort of church.



[edit on 5-9-2006 by Masonic Light]



posted on Sep, 5 2006 @ 12:51 PM
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I have read somewhere than both Henry ford and karl marx, keynes and Adam smith were masons so I suppose capitalism proceeds from masonry.

As communism is an utopia and capitalism lead to the excesses we all know this is hard to make a choice. though masons are needed if they are some of the elite. We need an elite and leaders. i will not include socialism because this is a joke for voters.

the greater system makes everybody happier so i would recommend we stop the fractionnal reserve banking which the biggest fraud since the french revolution but would be really hard to get from one day to another as anyone informed knows who has interest in this.

i wish anybody could live correctly with one salary and companies like wallmart should have a much more sense of social responsibilities.

i wonder how you can be mason, communist, black, woman living in california.

and if bill gates should pay back all the people he put in sh@t with his crappy systems, i am sure he would not be able to do so with all the US debt.

bye for now... a happy guinea pig...;-)



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