Who has suffered the most in the world?

The third one, St. Udio, is rather interesting to me. Would you please elaborate on that, if you could?

My "take" on this.

Suffering is a personal thing.

How do you define it?

Is my pain more than yours? Less? How many must die before it becomes an atrocity? More Russians were killed under Stalin, does that make the Jewish Holocaust less somehow?

Blacks were held as slaves; so was every other race throughout history at one time or another. Celts (White) Jews (White) Mexicans (Latino) China, etc. There were even a large number of whites held in slavery in America. Does this make any one group more prone to suffering, or give them more justification to relate their suffering?

How about victims of war, major natural disasters or just when you find out you have cancer.

We can take it personal that some group that we perceivably belong to was wronged at one time or another, use this to defend outrage and further separate ourselves from the rest of humanity. Thereby eradicating any possibility of defeating separatism, racism and prejudice. Or accept that human suffering is simply the human condition.

Through many advancements in understanding, acceptance and even technology, the extent of suffering has been lessened in many modern countries. Still, however, the majority of the world still resides in areas where suffering is the norm. I would project that their current suffering is far and above more profound than the perceived suffering of people in the past.

Yes, I said perceived. I used this verbiage because you were not there, neither were you or you or me. We are here now, at this time and this moment. We have the facilities and the opportunity to possibly alleviate someone's suffering that exists now, in the present. Yet we seem to spend all of our time, worrying about how much someone suffered in the past.

I am NOT proposing that we forget what has happened, just that we move on.

Before British slavers traveled to Africa's western coast to buy Black slaves from African chieftains, they sold their own White working class kindred ("the surplus poor" as they were known) from the streets and towns of England, into slavery. Tens of thousands of these White slaves were kidnapped children. In fact the very origin of the word kidnapped is kid-nabbed, the stealing of White children for enslavement.
www.rockhawk.com...

Should I use this to proclaim my suffering in historical terms? Or should I accept what has happened and acknowledge that I am not those slaves, that I am a different person and free of thought and attitude.

Semper

But isn't that indentured slavery in which one could work for a period of years and then let go? And then, they are able to work their way up into American society. The same could be said for the British who sent their prisoners to America as well. These two groups of people were condemned, but they were able to work off their "sentence" and fully integrate into society.

All I have to say is do you have any academic sources to back up your website? Any other books that explore the notion of White slavery? Any documents from the government, especially in Virginia?

I don't doubt it. There was an intense backlash against the Irish in America.

However, I would like to see a wide array of other sources to back up the website you listed. That would help out very much. Thanks for telling us that.


[edit on 20-9-2006 by ceci2006]

I would say...

The Jews under Egypt
The Jews under Babylon
The Jews under the Philistines
The Jews under Persia
The Jews under Greece
The Jews under Rome
The Jews under Charlemagne
The Jews under the Spanish Inquisition
The Jews under post-World War 1 Europe
The Jews under Nazi Germany
The Jews under attacked by the PLO
The Jews under the UN/EU
And, coming soon, the Jews under most of the western world.

There have been many other nations that have enslaved, tormented or just killed the Jews as scapegoats or just because over the past 6,000 years. Of all cultures, theirs has suffered the most because it is the oldest that has remained true to its roots through time, and has been the target of political attack time and time again over the course of thousands of years. We are witnessing it happening again today, yet, as history has shown us (though we only learn from history that we won't learn anything from history as a collective) they will maintain and, no matter what happens, maintain their culture, separate from the rest of the world.

Why am I not surprised...

Only the Jews have suffered, right? Thats insulting to the rest of humanity who have suffered immensely as well.

I think there are some very obvious "groups" and "classes" that suffer.

The one that immediately hit me was the group that spans any and all classifications is children.

They are the ones that I believe suffer the worst of the worlds ills. Everything impacts them, they aren't immune nor exempt from any number or degree of sufferages.

Children are the legacy of everything we do right and everything we do wrong.

Originally posted by subz
Only the Jews have suffered, right?

My friend, you must see past your prejudices! I in no way said no one else has suffered; if I believed that, I'd be arguing with everyone on here who has said anyone but the Jews. The question was who suffered the most, not who has suffered. Just about every culture has had a time of persecution, of suffering that has lasted a season, that season being tens or even hundreds of years, but only the Jews have experienced such a season for near 6,000 years.

But isn't that indentured slavery in which one could work for a period of years and then let go? And then, they are able to work their way up into American society. The same could be said for the British who sent their prisoners to America as well. These two groups of people were condemned, but they were able to work off their "sentence" and fully integrate into society.

More information as requested...

“Much of what has been written gives the impression that there were not many slaves and minimizes the impact that slavery had on Europe,” Davis said. “Most accounts only look at slavery in one place, or only for a short period of time. But when you take a broader, longer view, the massive scope of this slavery and its powerful impact become clear.”
While African slaves did grueling labor on sugar and cotton plantations in the Americas, European Christian slaves were often worked just as hard and as lethally – in quarries, in heavy construction, and above all rowing the corsair galleys themselves.

Davis said his findings suggest that this invisible slavery of European Christians deserves more attention from scholars.researchnews.osu.edu...

In George Sandys laws for Virginia, Whites were enslaved "forever." The service of Whites bound to Berkeley's Hundred was deemed "perpetual." These accounts have been policed out of the much touted "standard reference works" such as Abbott Emerson Smith's laughable whitewash, Colonists in Bondage.

In 1855, Frederic Law Olmsted, the landscape architect who designed New York's Central Park, was in Alabama on a pleasure trip and saw bales of cotton being thrown from a considerable height into a cargo ship's hold. The men tossing the bales somewhat recklessly into the hold were Negroes, the men in the hold were Irish.

Olmsted inquired about this to a shipworker. "Oh," said the worker, "the 'n-word's are worth too much to be risked here; if the Paddies are knocked overboard or get their backs broke, nobody loses anything."

Ships carrying White slaves to America often lost half their slaves to death. According to historian Sharon V. Salinger, "Scattered data reveal that the mortality for [White] servants at certain times equaled that for [Black] slaves in the 'middle passage,' and during other periods actually exceeded the death rate for [Black] slaves." Salinger reports a death rate of ten to twenty percent over the entire 18th century for Black slaves on board ships enroute to America compared with a death rate of 25% for White slaves enroute to America.

Those academics who insist that slavery is an exclusively Black racial condition forget or deliberately omit the fact that the word slave originally was a reference to Whites of East European origin - "Slavs."
www.revisionisthistory.org...

The fact that there were cases of white slavery is a fascinating historical fact and further points out the barbarity and depravity of the entire slave trade. Just as we are told that we should never forget about the Holocaust, we should not forget this dark period in American history. The sad fact, however, is that we do not learn the lessons of these terrible events. Rather than try to stop the continuing acts of genocide and slavery (slavery continues in Mali and the Sudan) that exist right now in Africa and other parts of the world, Americans would rather fight the battles of 50 or 150 years ago. They are focused on extracting apologies and recompense from the descendants of those responsible for horrific past deeds and they do nothing about alleviating the suffering of their fellow human beings today.

-- Martin Kannengieser
archive.salon.com...

As you can see from the quotes I have provided, there are numerous references that you can look up and obtain that will go into greater detail.

There are also several books and article mentioned in the accounts listed that are available when you access the links provided.

Semper

Originally posted by junglejake
My friend, you must see past your prejudices!

You are right, I am prejudiced when it comes to the eternal victimhood bestowed on the Jewish people. To that end, I am prejudiced against any people claiming eternal victimhood, which includes those of African decent, Asian decent etc.

The reason im against such a mentality is because it creates a climate where it can be used to excuse the suffering thats perpetuated by the victim. Bestowing eternal victimhood status on a whole people does not seek to prevent further suffering, it just seeks to excuse their "revenge" in the future. Which to me is obviously wrong.

Look at it this way, what Jewish person alive today suffered at the hands of the Egyptian pharoahs? Why is it relevant to their status today? If I converted to Judaism tomorrow would that mean I too could claim to be a victim of the Egyptian pharoahs and the Roman Caesars? It's ludicrous and counterproductive.

Originally posted by junglejake
The question was who suffered the most, not who has suffered. Just about every culture has had a time of persecution, of suffering that has lasted a season, that season being tens or even hundreds of years, but only the Jews have experienced such a season for near 6,000 years.

Ceci2006 actually asked for people to rank those who have suffered in history, with the top people being those who you think suffered the most. Since you mentioned no one but the Jewish people you gave the impression you dont think any one else suffered. If thats not the case then you shouldnt have any problem ranking others, with the Jews at the top of the list, as asked by Ceci2006 in the OP.

Originally posted by ceci2006
How would you all rank who has suffered the most in history, politics and society? Which group do you think has endured the worst treatment of all citizens of the earth? What is your top five "suffering" groups of people in your opinion?

[edit on 21/9/06 by subz]

Without a doubt I'd say the Jews have suffered the most. It's terrible really.

No doubt, Native Americans (Including both Native North and South Americans), Blacks (I say 'Blacks' because not every 'dark skinned' person is from Africa), Indian pariahs, and the Aborigines. Pretty much everyone of these races have been treated less than humans, enslaved, killed for their land, and forced to live in poverty for simply being born.

[edit] I would like to add, in recent times, it's the Gays that are the constant targets. It's sad to see anyone treated inhuman because some don't agree with their sexual preference.

[edit on 17-10-2006 by DJMessiah]

dude what's all this talk about jews, doesn't anybody remember the some 25million dead russians after WWII, and the more than 1mil or more dead after WWI, and all those who've died under stalin, and those who died under Ivan the terrible, and all through the history. doesn't anybody care to remember the Africans who've suffered for 100's of years under european segregation, slavery and colonialism. have people forgotten the genocide that happens in africa every day or month or year, Africa has suffered greatly, or what about allt he dead Native Americans under the US government, or under the europeans, millions of Native Americans died in just like 10 years or less after Europeans set foot on the americas, anyone know anything about the trail of tears, kinda reminds you of the march of death from Aushcwitz i think to soem other concentration camp, please jews aren't the only people who have suffered, millions of africans of Native Americans, of russians, of chinese, of koreans, of south americans have died over the last 3-4 centuries... i suggest people start reading more and actually knowing what they're talking about when they put how the 6 million jews dead after the holocaust as hte top tragedy that has ever happened to any race/religion/nationality....

Especially when the 6 million figure is a grossly overestimated figure. One only has to look at the official death toll from Auschwitz alone that was revised in the early 1990's by the Polish government, in conjunction with Israeli scholars, downward by over 3 million deaths from 4 million to just over 1 million combined Jewish and non-Jewish dead.

So with 3 million gone from the oft stated 6 million dead from one revision of Auschwitz alone I think it's safe to say that the laws enacted to prevent scholarly discussion of the Holocaust are designed to protect the major benefactor of the Holocausts aftermath; Zionists.

thank you for the support... anyway since when were there laws against discussing the holocaust????

I have a essay on suffering and I found all of these posts thought-provoking. Would anyone mind if I used some quotes or answers? I will include your name and give credit to anyone who says that I can.