Religion 4. Adam and Eve

Originally posted by Terral




The sixth day men of Genesis 1:26-28 are the evolutionary children of Adam, because they were called into being over millions of years from the essence of Adam’s broken body.

PLEASE, no need to make crap up is there?

Originally posted by Terral


Adam traversed the earthy realm, the heaven realm and the heavens realm with great ease in the beginning, because the very nature of his immortal soul allowed him access to every corner of this universe. Adam was “god” to the sixth day men and even the travelers from space who are also his children. Adam reigned supreme through dynasties of kings like Alulim (28,000 years) and Alalmar (36,000 years) at Eridu and Emenluanna at Badgurgurru (43,000 years); all the way through Zinsuddu’s (Utnapishtim) reign that lasted 64,000 years (Halley’s Bible Handbook,1965, Page 71), until he had named everything to be named, sat down and became bored.

Terrel; if you want to put your trust in Sumerian mythology that is your prerogative. I'll stick with what the Bible says. Can you merge the two into some composite form and find the truth?
No for 2Cor 6:14 says, " 14 Be not unequally yoked with unbelievers: for what fellowship have righteousness and iniquity? or what communion hath light with darkness?

15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what portion hath a believer with an unbeliever?

16 And what agreement hath a temple of God with idols? for we are a temple of the living God; even as God said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Gods people were to reject and avoid pagan teachings and philosophies of man if they were to find favor in Gods eyes.

(Colossians 2:8) 8 Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry YOU off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ;

I respect your right to believe what you want, but please dont pretend your ideas are in harmony with the Bible.

[edit on 18-9-2006 by Sparky63]

Hi Sparky, Sun Matrix:

Sun >> PLEASE, no need to make crap up is there?

Sparky >> I respect your right to believe what you want, but please dont pretend your ideas are in harmony with the Bible.

The two posts above contain ‘my’ interpretations of Genesis 1:1-4 using Scripture, Hebrew definitions, diagrams and my commentary. If either of you would be so kind as to “quote me >>” and present ‘your’ opposing views using Scripture (2Tim. 2:15), then perhaps we will have something to debate. Until then, stone chuckers and whiners have no credibility with anyone. I would love to “quote you >>” and show the folly of your arguments, but neither of you have presented a case for anything else. Please do not confuse activity with accomplishment, as if either of you have actually proved one thing above to be errant in any way. Paul asks, “Where is the debater of this age?” (1Cor. 1:20). Scripture says,

“For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you.” 1Corinthians 11:19.

Bring it and let’s see who is truly ‘approved’ before men and God. : 0 )

GL in the debate,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

I think you left out the part about the blind could see and
the lame could walk and the deaf could hear.
And of course the most important thing being the resurection from the dead.

Nope just left out the common attributes of this type of mystery tale.

Then Saul persecutes the very religion you claim he started

Saul ,works for the establishment, makes good money,drinks cheap wine,
falls off his ass, busts his head, has a "vision" . becomes Paul starts a new religion.
wow wonder of wonders.

Originally posted by Terral

Hi Terral

TThe two posts above contain ‘my’ interpretations of Genesis 1:1-4 using Scripture, Hebrew definitions, diagrams and my commentary.ext

Like I said, please quit making crap up. I asked nicely

Until then, stone chuckers and whiners have no credibility with anyone. I would love to “quote you >>” and show the folly of your arguments, but neither of you have presented a case for anything else.

I'm not a rock thrower, I carry a sword. Since you say we haven't presented a case, how do you know it's folly?

Bring it and let’s see who is truly ‘approved’ before men and God.

I could care less about the approval of men. As for God.............

Matthew 23:12 For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Terral, No offense but I didn't find your post worthy of comment other than to say please quit making things up. Honestly, I could care less what you believe or say except you close with the Christ Jesus comment. Since your posts obviously don't hold up to scripture it's kind of misleading.

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Mod Edit - fixed quotes

[edit on 24-9-2006 by masqua]

Hi Sun Matrix, Sparky:

Sun >> I'm not a rock thrower, I carry a sword. Since you say we haven't presented a case, how do you know it's folly?

First of all, both you and your sidekick are casting stones and bellyaching. How did you open this recent post with my name attached?

Sun Matrix >> “Like I said, please quit making crap up. I asked nicely . . .”.

Neither of you have presented a case ‘against’ my two posts at the bottom of Page 3 of this thread. Unbelievers commonly accuse God-fearing Christians for whom Christ died of “making all this crap up.” How does it feel to stand among them while casting stones of unbelief? There are over 2000 denominations of professing Christians in the USA alone, which means at least that many interpretations of the same Scriptures. I quoted Sparky in the two posts above and presented a solid case for ‘my’ interpretation using Scripture without any name calling, stone chucking or bellyaching. His reply is to quote “Christ with Belial” nonsense, as if his explanations occupy the sacred ground of the Mountain of God itself. Very well. You guys want to avoid the points in my presentation and place the tag of “pagan teachings and philosophies of man” upon my testimony, then pretend this whining means something? Here is how we play this game: Terrel will head back up the thread and engage each of you in meaningful debate, until the accusation of “iniquity” (Sparky is very creative) has fallen upon you.

Sun >> Terral, No offense but I didn't find your post worthy of comment other than to say please quit making things up. Honestly, I could care less what you believe or say except you close with the Christ Jesus comment. Since your posts obviously don't hold up to scripture it's kind of misleading.

That would be your job to prove using Scripture. 2Timothy 2:15. BTW, the correct assertion is to say, “I could not care less . . .”. If you ‘could care less,’ the intimation is you ‘do’ give a hoot. You guys present yours and I will do the same. The third party readers can judge us both!

GL in the debate,

Terral

Hi Sparky, FlyersFan:

Flyer >> The bible states that Cain was afraid of 'the others' outside of the garden. He was afraid to go out there when God tossed him out after killing his brother Able . . .

Sparky >> Cain & Able, and in fact, all of Adam & Eve's chidren were conceived after Adam & Eve were removed from the garden of Eden. So Cain was already outside the Garden when he killed his brother. Gen 3:23 states that God drove Adam & Eve from the Garden. Afterwords at some later date, Gen 4:1 indicates that Eve conceived & gave birth to Cain.

The fact is that both of you are overlooking a vital point that proves Flyer to be nearer the truth in this case. The issue is not about whether Adam, Eve and Cain remained in the Garden at all. Scripture says,

“Then Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden.” Genesis 4:16.

Adam and Eve “hid themselves from the ‘presence of the Lord’ back in Genesis 3:8, before being driven from the Garden. This ‘presence’ theme is carried throughout Scripture to accompany the righteous branch associated with Shem, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the Patriarchs down through Aaron and Moses to the Tabernacle, Temple, etc.. Scripture says,

"Now therefore, I pray You, if I have found favor in Your sight, let me know Your ways that I may know You, so that I may find favor in Your sight. Consider too, that this nation is Your people." And He said, "My presence shall go with you, and I will give you rest." Then he said to Him, "If Your presence does not go with us, do not lead us up from here.” Exodus 33:13-15.

Note carefully that the ‘bread of the Presence’ (Exodus 25:30 = “set . . . before Me at all times.”) is a permanent fixture of the ‘tabernacle’ (Exodus 35:11) among the long list of earthy symbols “for the present time” (Hebrews 9:9) of Heavenly things above. Exodus 35:13. David makes the connections between “Your Presence” and the “Holy Spirit,” saying,

“As for me, You uphold me in my integrity, And You set me in Your presence forever.” Psalm 41:12.

“Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.” Psalm 51:11.

“Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence?” Psalm 139:7.

“Surely the righteous will give thanks to Your name; The upright will dwell in Your presence.” Psalm 140:13.

The Tabernacle of Moses and the Temple bear symbols of things also present in the Garden with Adam and Eve in the “Tree of Life” (Holy Spirit = Holy of Holies), “Tree of knowledge of good and evil” (in middle = midst of garden) and the waters (river becoming rivers = Genesis 2:10) running from the garden (Court of Tabernacle). In fact, the Temple itself is a microcosm of the Garden environment with the lands adjacent to the rivers symbolizing the Court (courts) outside the Holy Place in spirit witness (Holy of Holies), blood witness (Holy Place) and water witness (land/rivers) fashion. We see the same typology on display with the “water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb” (Rev. 22:1) with the new creation of Revelation 21:1+. Taking this information back to Cain and Genesis 4, we see the murderer of Able leaving the ‘Presence of the Lord’ in Genesis 4:16 with no mention of any wife, son or posterity.

“Then Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden.” Genesis 4:16.

Since Cain went out from the presence of the Lord at this juncture, then he must have previously stood in “Your Presence.” The two key words in this verse are “Nod” (#5113) meaning “wandering” and “dwelt/settled” (yashab #3427) meaning “to dwell, remain, sit, abide.” “Nod” ( www.blueletterbible.org... ) here is ‘the same as #5112’ (nowd = “wandering (of aimless fugitive)” used by David in Psalm 56:8. However, in the following verse we see:

[edit on 19-9-2006 by Terral]

“Cain had relations with his wife and she conceived, and gave birth to Enoch; and he built a city, and called the name of the city Enoch, after the name of his son.” Genesis 4:17.

These two verses of Genesis 4:16 and 17 contain a enormous amount of time, which begins with Cain’s ‘wanderings of an aimless fugitive,’ until he ‘settles,’ finds a wife, bears a son and builds a city with his son’s name. Since the city and son are possessions gathered ‘after’ Cain settled down, then we must place Cain’s wife in the same category. After all, one aspect of ‘settling down’ is attracting, marrying and building a house for a wife! The sixth day people of Genesis 1:26-28 are the only ones God has mentioned outside Adam and Eve’s lineage, which are the only family trees with the possibility of containing Cain’s wife. Adam and Eve’s third son comes along in Genesis 4:25, after “Adam had relations with his wife again.”

Mr. Sparky seems willing to create other children and even daughters from the union of Adam and Eve for incestuous Cain to take with him beyond the presence of the Lord, even though Scripture never even makes implications in that direction.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

Angelslayer, Sparky:

Angel >> . . . So there are two seedlines . . . even verses such as Gen. 3:15 make it clear that Satan had his own seedline and it started back with Eve.

Sparky >> Care to explain how Cains "seedline" survived the flood? Noah and all sons come from the line of Seth. This is clearly supported in the scriptures.

While Angel’s interpretation can use some work, he is miles nearer the truth than you. Satan’s seed was also carried by Noah down through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The truth is understood by realizing that Adam and Eve took the fruit of the knowledge of good AND evil into themselves the very instant they ate. The serpent never had relations with the woman in the process of begetting Cain. The ‘seed’ itself was in her and Adam, which randomly allowed Satan’s and Adam’s seed to incarnate onto the earth as men. The ‘pattern’ of incarnation follows the types laid down in the six creative days leading up to these ‘seventh day’ events. Darkness is upon the face of the deep in Genesis 1:2, which necessitated God to say, “Let there be Light.” Genesis 1:3.

“God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.” Genesis 1:4+5.

The Jewish tradition of beginning the next ‘day’ at sundown is taken directly from these Genesis accounts where ‘darkness’ and ‘evening’ always come before the ‘light’ of the following ‘morning.’ Therefore, the ‘Sabbath day’ actually begins on Friday night at sundown. Cain is the firstborn child representing the ‘darkness’ of Satan’s seed coming before the ‘light’ of the righteous branch carried by Seth. Darkness is already firmly established in the city named from Cain’s own son (Genesis 4:17), before the righteous branch is even mentioned (Genesis 4:25). However, Satan’s seed permeates BOTH lineages, which allows the ‘sons of disobedience’ of the ‘prince of the power of the air’ (Ephesians 2:2) to spring up among Seth’s generations at anytime. This explains how the sons of Satan are counted among the chief priests, scribes, lawyers, and even Judas who conspired to put Christ to death. Are we taking notice that the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8) is continuing to receive this evil seed, AFTER the new creation is created in Revelation 21:1+?? That is because the “your seed” and “her seed” continue incarnating onto the earth throughout the ‘ages to come’ (Eph. 2:7), even though the devil (Rev. 20:10) and his cronies (Rev. 19:20, 20:11-15) are already judged and “tormented day and night forever and ever.” Christ says,

"Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three. "They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law." Luke 12:51-53.

The war between ‘your seed’ and ‘her seed’ (Genesis 3:15) will continue “from now on,” according to Christ’s own predictions. The battle is not between the traditional lineages of Cain and Seth like you might expect, but both ‘seeds’ spring up within families on both sides of the equation. Seth and his generations resulted in FAR more families than just Noah, his sons and their wives. If ‘your seed’ and ‘her seed’ were so easy to keep separate and identify, then Noah’s flood killed many innocent souls. Since the Lord God spared only eight souls, then we can visualize that ‘darkness was over the surface’ of all these families in the same way it covered ‘the deep’ back in Genesis 1:2. The “Light” of the righteous branch AND the “darkness” of “your seed” were carried by Noah and his family together, which explains why Christ came to grant “division” in the first place.

Sparky >> To shed further light on the identity . . . These Jews were descendants of Abraham, just as they boasted. But their wicked conduct made them spiritual children of Satan, the originator of sin.

No sir. Their wicked conduct is the ‘result’ of them representing “your seed” (Gen. 3:15) that Christ is dividing from the righteous branch denoted by ‘her seed.’ What does Scripture say?

"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the Only Begotten Son of God.” John 3:17+18.

John the Baptist and Christ railed at the devil’s seed, even though they were the sons of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; because they knew “your seed” is intertwined with “her seed” and “judged already.”

Sparky >> The apostle John, writing toward the end of the first century, explains clearly who belong to the seed of the Serpent, Satan. He writes: “He who carries on sin originates with the Devil, because the Devil has been sinning from the beginning. . . . The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Everyone who does not carry on righteousness does not originate with God, neither does he who does not love his brother.” (1 John 3:8, 10)

John’s teachings here concern those who received the ‘anointing’ (1John 2:20, 27) VERSUS those who “walk in darkness” (1John 1:6) that is “passing away” (1John 2:8). John is describing characteristics of those already in the darkness. However, this in no way translates to ‘infants in Christ’ (1Cor. 3:1) as “men of flesh” who simply lack maturity to carry on doing foolish things. In other words, John can more easily draw the line between ‘your seed’ and ‘her seed’ of his generation, because kingdom disciples receive the ‘gift of the Holy Spirit’ (Acts 2:38) which includes the sign gifts of tongues, healings, prophecy, etc.. The members of “Christ’s body” (1Cor. 12:27) saved through Paul’s “word of the cross” (1Cor. 1:18) gospel message are living under the ‘dispensation of God’s grace’ (Ephesians 3:2) and receive only a ‘pledge’ (Eph. 1:13) of our inheritance, until the ‘day of redemption’ (Eph. 4:30). Therefore, we cannot visually inspect one another and draw the same conclusions of John with the same amount of certainty.

Sparky >> So it is by their opposition to God’s Son Jesus, that those religious leaders showed that they too were Satan’s offspring. They were part of Satan’s seed, serving him as their figurative father.

John the Baptist made the same railing judgments to ‘your seed,’ before Christ ever appeared to anyone.

“But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? "Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance; and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father'; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.” Matthew 3:7-9.

These Pharisees and Sadducees were “coming for baptism” and had opposed nobody. However, John the Baptist was baptized with the Holy Spirit while still in his mother’s womb (Luke 1:15) allowing him to fall under the category of receiving the ‘anointing’ of 1John 2:20+27. Jesus Christ is said to be “full of the Holy Spirit” (Luke 4:1) upon being baptized by John the Baptist (Matt. 3:15+16), which placed both of these witnesses in the “Light” position in direct opposition to the ‘darkness’ represented by ‘your seed.’ Since John teaches that God can raise up children to Abraham ‘from these stones,’ then we are not to divide the two seeds by traditional means at all. These Pharisees and Sadducees were of ‘your seed,’ even though their fathers were Levites of the priestly orders.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

Sun Matrix:

Sun >> Second you are confused about the seed of the woman. The seed of the woman is Jesus the Messiah who was the only one on earth ever born of the seed of a woman.

Lord . . . Have . . . Mercy . . . First off, never make these kinds of bold statements without Scriptural support from God’s Word, as if your opinion means anything. Secondly, Jesus Christ was “conceived of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 1:20) and was “found in appearance AS A MAN.” Philippians 2:8. What does Christ teach on this topic?

"Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! . . .”. Matthew 11:11.

Please explain for everyone here how “Jesus the Messiah” is “born of the seed of a woman” AND how John the Baptist is greater than He?! Good luck . . .

Sun >> This seed of a woman Jesus the Christ crushed the head of the serpent.

Really? What does Scripture say?

“The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.” Romans 16:20.

The ‘god of this world’ continues to “blind the minds of the unbelieving” (2Corinthians 4:3+4), as the “prince of the power of the air” (Ephesians 2:2) and the “deluding influence” (2Thessalonians 2:11) right this moment as we speak; “so they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.” 2Corinthians 4:4. How do you suppose he manages all of that with a crushed head? In case you are unaware, Satan is thrown into the lake of fire at a future time in Revelation 20:10 at about the same time this current earth passes away (Rev. 20:11). Your interpretation above has the cart about a million miles ahead of the horse. While Christ made the ‘provision’ for Satan’s demise at Calvary, God is still in the process of restoring ‘all things’ (Acts 3:21). Note carefully that ‘times’ (chronos #5550), as in “until the times* of restoration of all things” is given in the ‘plural.’ While the “world forces of this darkness” (Eph. 6:12) are indeed “passing away” (1Cor. 2:6-8), the ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12) to replace them in the heavenly places is still reaching for ‘maturity’ (Ephesians 4:13).

God cannot simply toss Satan and his cronies from their heavenly places, until the provision for their replacement is restored ‘first’ (Acts 15:14). Satan and the members of his evil body are not even chained (Rev. 20:2), until the start of the 1000 years “Day of the Lord” that only begins (comes = 2Thes. 2:2) at our Rapture (1Thes. 4:16+17). That ‘trumpet’ (1Thes. 4:16, 1Cor. 15:52) is the one heard “behind” (Rev. 1:10*) John to START the “Lord’s Day*” (Day of the Lord), which accompanies the ‘voice of the archangel’ (1Thes. 4:16) that binds/chains the devil for the 1000 years. Since we are still living in the time BEFORE the “Day of the Lord” begins, then Satan is still on the loose deceiving, deluding and blinding the ‘untaught and unstable’ (2Peter 3:14-16) through his ‘servants of righteousness’ (2Cor. 11:15) just like you. Why else would someone try to teach that Satan’s head has already been crushed, when Scripture teaches exactly the opposite?? Food for thought . . .

Sun >> Jesus was not born of the corruptable seed of man but born of the Holy Spirit.

Please make up our minds. Above you say, “The seed of the woman is Jesus the Messiah who was the only one on earth ever born of the seed of a woman.” The prophecy (Genesis 3:15) concerns “your seed” (serpent’s) and “her seed” (woman’s seed). Jesus went from being the “only one on earth ever born of the seed of a woman” (Heh) to being “born of the Holy Spirit” in the same post. Since you refuse to include a single Scriptural reference with your boldly asserted opinions, then we do not have the luxury of looking up your use of phrases like “born of the Holy Spirit” to track down information from the Original Languages of the manuscripts. Do you know how many times “born” and “Holy Spirit” appear within the same verses of Scripture? ZERO. Please make clarifying statements and include Scriptural references to prop up your explanation at your earliest convenience.

Sun >> Anyone that is not BORN AGAIN or spiritually born is born of Satans seed.

Really? Where does Scripture teach this nonsense? The Greek of Christ’s teaching to Nicodemus on this topic is “gennao anothen” ( www.blueletterbible.org... ) meaning “born from above.” John 3:3+7. According to your claims, every Old Testament Jew is ‘born of Satan’s seed’ if they walked uprightly keeping the Law or not. Christ’s teachings to Nicodemus concern the doctrinal composition of the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matthew 4:23, 9:35, etc.), which was the ONLY good news message in town at that time. Has Christ died for anyone in John 3? Not by a long shot.

We are saved by God’s grace through faith apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9) by ‘obedience of faith’ (Romans 1:5, 16:26) to Paul’s ‘word of the cross’ (1Cor. 1:18) gospel message. Nobody has been saved through obedience to the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ for almost 2000 years. I explain the differences here ( www.abovetopsecret.com... ). Today we are ‘created IN Christ Jesus’ (Ephesians 2:10) at the moment of salvation to become that ‘new creation’ (Galatians 6:15) and ‘new creature’ (2Corinthians 5:16+17) Paul describes throughout his Epistles. You obviously do not know the differences between the two gospels of the New Testament, which is pointed out by this “born again” lingo . . .

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

There are over 2000 denominations of professing Christians in the USA alone, which means at least that many interpretations of the same Scriptures.

Yep 2000 denominations all reading the same faery tales, all claiming to be the only right way.
2000 of ya and ya cant even decide among yourselves who is right. Yet you have the
unmitigated brass balls to tell me IM wrong? Go back yo your seminaries and decide among yourselves first.

Sparky, Sun Matrix (mentioned):

Sparky >> Your reference to specific bloodlines indicates a succession of linage. Once again I ask you to demonstrate from the Scriptures (please quote chapter and verse) that Cain's bloodline survived the flood.

“You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.” John 8:44.

Since references are made to “your seed” (Gen. 3:15) in “your father the devil,” then obviously they were carried by Noah’s sons and daughter-in-laws on the ark. The key is that ‘your seed’ entered Adam and Eve while still in the garden through the fruit of the forbidden tree. Cain is an example of ‘your seed,’ while Able and Seth are examples of “her seed.” The serpent is not going around impregnating women, because there is no reason to do so. “Your seed” is in the loins of Noah, Shem, Japheth, Ham and their wives. Again, Christ did not come to bring ‘peace’ for the families of Shem VERSUS division for Cain, because ‘both’ (your seed AND her seed) are born to the same ‘one household.’ Luke 12:51-53. Sparky is trying to pretend that the serpent’s head was crushed by Noah’s flood, which borders on the fringes of ridiculous.

Sparky >> If his bloodline did not survive the flood then you whole argument is invalid.

No sir. “Your seed” and “her seed” are interwoven like two vines growing up and connected to a single tree. Esau and Jacob shared a single womb, but God loved one and hated the other. Romans 9:13. The physical bloodlines only mimic the spiritual essence and qualities on display from ‘your seed’ and ‘her seed’ commonly growing up under the same roof. Does the Lord God bless the sons of Shem, Japheth and Ham equally? No sir. Why not? Because the sons and their sons are being born in the exact likeness of Adam and Eve bearing Cain, Able and Seth. Blessings are given to the righteous branch, while curses are placed upon ‘your seed.’

“So he said, "Cursed be Canaan; A servant of servants He shall be to his brothers." He also said, "Blessed be the Lord, The God of Shem; And let Canaan be his servant. May God enlarge Japheth, And let him dwell in the tents of Shem; And let Canaan be his servant." Genesis 9:25-27.

Zechariah prophesies of a day regarding ‘Canaanites’ saying,

“Every cooking pot in Jerusalem and in Judah will be holy to the LORD of hosts; and all who sacrifice will come and take of them and boil in them. And there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts in that day.” Zech. 14:21.

The prophecy makes little sense, unless Canaanites are ‘in the house of the Lord’ sowing havoc and discord prior to the fulfillment of this prophecy. Zephaniah prophesies and says,

"Wail, O inhabitants of the Mortar, For all the people of Canaan will be silenced; All who weigh out silver will be cut off.” Zeph. 1:11.

Does this carry our minds back to Christ cleaning out His Temple? Matthew 21:12? While I have not taken the time to read through Angelslayer’s arguments, his position appears much nearer the truth than his stone chucking (Sparky and Sun Matrix) opponents in this debate.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

Sun Matrix:

The common theme of your tiny ‘chat’ posts is they are high on opinion and low on Scriptural proof or support.

Sun >> Then Saul persecutes the very religion you claim he started. Your story is left wanting....

At least his posts contain some kind of a story. Your pitiful little chat posts contain little in the way of rhyme or reason. Paul never persecuted the Christian faith he started by becoming the first (protos #4413) “IN” Christ Jesus by faith apart from works on the road to Damascus (Acts 9:15). He did persecute the prophetic kingdom ‘bride’ (John 3:29) gathered through obedience to the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matt. 4:23, 9:35, Acts 8:12, etc.). Peter’s Jewish dominant kingdom ‘church’ (Matthew 16:16-19, 18:17-18) is a totally different and separate ‘dispensation’ under God from Paul’s Gentile dominant “dispensation of God’s grace” (Eph. 3:2) still in the world today. The doctrinal components of the two churches of the NT look something like this:
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This is NOT our church for today and nobody has become a Kingdom Disciple under the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ for almost 2000 Years. This church will become revived again under Elijah coming to restore all things (Matthew 17:10-11).
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I. Kingdom Bride Prophecy Church. (Matthew 16:16-19, Matthew 18:17-18).

1. Gathered through the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matthew 4:23, Matthew 9:35, Acts 8:12).
2. Lord betrothing the ‘bride’ by the OT prophets. Hosea 2:19-20, John 3:29.
3. Church based in Jerusalem. Acts 8:1, Acts 11:22, Acts 15:4.
4. Destined to become a kingdom of priests (Exodus 19:6) ‘holy nation,’ and ‘chosen race.’ 1Peter 2:9.
5. Kingdom on earth as in heaven. Matthew 6:10.
6. Continue under Mosaic Law, until heaven and earth passes away. Matthew 5:17-19, James 2:10.
7. Kingdom Church justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:20-24.
8. Kingdom church started with John the Baptist. Mark 1:4, Matthew 3:1-6, Acts 1:5, Acts 19:1-3.
9. Disciples received three baptisms (Father, Son and Holy Spirit; Matthew 28:19). Acts 8:12-17, Acts 19:1-6.
10. Members of the bride DO NOT have eternal security, but must ‘endure to the end.’ Matthew 24:13.
11. Kingdom disciples must believe AND be baptized. Mark 16:15-16.
12. This Kingdom church addressed by Peter, John and James (“twelve tribes dispersed abroad” = James 1:1).
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This is our Mystery Church of today described only in the Pauline Epistles. We shall be caught up to the Lord (1 Thessalonians 4:17), when the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord” (1 Thessalonians 5:1-2) comes (2 Thessalonians 2:2).
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II. Grace Body Mystery Church. Ephesians 5:32, Colossians 1:24.

1. Gathered through obedience to Paul’s ‘word of the cross’ (1Corinthians 1:18) gospel. 1 Corinthians 15:3-4.
2. Our mystery church (Ephesians 5:32) not seen by the OT Prophets. Ephesians 3:4-6, Ephesians 3:9.
3. Grace Churches are all around the known world. Romans 1:8.
4. Destined to judge the world and the angels. 1 Corinthians 6:2-3.
5. Our citizenship is in heaven. Philippians 3:20.
6. We are under grace and not under law. Romans 6:14.
7. Our church is justified by faith apart from works. Romans 4:4-6.
8. Grace Church started with Paul on the road to Damascus. Acts 9:15.
9. Brethren receive only ‘one baptism’ (Ephesians 4:5) by the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13-14, 4:30) Himself. 1 Corinthians 12:13.
10. Members of the body have eternal security “IN” Christ Jesus. Ephesians 4:30, Colossians 3:1-4.
11. The brethren are saved by simply believing the gospel without adding works. Romans 1:16-17, 1 Corinthians 1:21, Eph. 2:8-9.
12. This Mystery church addressed by the Apostle Paul ONLY in Scripture. 1 Corinthians 14:37-38.

Paul’s mystery church simply did not exist prior to Acts 9 for him to persecute, which leaves your statement lacking indeed . . .

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

Sparky, Forestlady:

Sparky to FL >> The Bible does not say when Cain took a wife. It could have been before he killed Able or after. It could have been before we went to dwell in the land of Nod or after.

Lord . . . Have . . . Mercy. Your case is build upon what “could have been”?? No sir. While this point is answered above, ForestLady’s [ her name is intriguing : 0 ) ] point here is valid. Scripture says,

“Then Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden. Cain had relations with his wife and she conceived, and gave birth to Enoch; and he built a city, and called the name of the city Enoch, after the name of his son.” Genesis 4:16-17.

A large amount of ‘time’ is passing within these two verses, as Cain ‘went out’ from the presence of the Lord to ‘settle’ in the land of Nod (wanderings) AND have relations with his wife AND bear a son AND build a city. Scripture purposely and deliberately provides an account of Cain and Able as brothers with no mention of any ‘wife’ for either of them at all prior to Genesis 4:17. Therefore, we must conclude that Cain’s wife entered the story between Cain’s wanderings AND his settling in the land of those wanderings, beyond the ‘presence of the Lord.’ Can Sparky connect the ‘city’ or ‘his son’ or the city bearing his name to the time ‘before’ Cain’s wanderings while still in the presence of the Lord? No sir. This “could have been” mentality is wishful thinking in the absence of Scriptural proof for his mythological theories. I am appalled to be reading such a high number of posts from Sparky and Sun Matrix bearing no Scriptural quotes or reference whatsoever. They whine about other members making ‘crap up’ (their words) even when our posts contain a mountain of Scripture they refuse to “quote >>” and make cases against using Scripture.

Sparky >> Regardless of his marital status, the Bible indicates that Adam & Eve had other sons and daughters besides Able Cain & Seth. (Gen 5:4) And the days of Adam after his fathering Seth came to be eight hundred years. Meanwhile he became father to sons and daughters.

So what? We are concentrating upon the ‘time’ between the birth of their first (Cain = Gen. 4:1) and third (Seth = Gen. 4:25) son provided by Scripture. What does Scripture say?

“Adam had relations with his wife again; and she gave birth to a son, and named him Seth, for, she said, "God has appointed me another offspring in place of Abel, for Cain killed him." Genesis 4:25.

Do you want to address the ‘obvious’ ramifications of what this single verse is teaching? Seth’s name means “compensation” ( www.blueletterbible.org... ), which clearly connects their ‘relations’ and his birth to a time after Cain killed Able. Are we privy to these other children (sons and daughters), as if Eve is a baby machine for you to develop your ‘incestuous’ hillbilly Family Affairs scenarios? No sir. The sixth day races (Genesis 1:26-28) have been on the earth for millions of years, as proved by the presence of fossil remains. Cain wandered in the Land of Nod and found a wife among the sixth day races, they bore a son and they build a city to fulfill the events of Genesis 4:17.

Sparky >> Cain obviously took one of his sisters, pehaps even a niece, as his wife.

LOL . . . Now look who is ‘obviously’ making crap up . . . Cain took his wife even before his brother Seth was conceived and there is no mention of other sibling births other than Able between him and Cain. Thank you for displaying your ‘could have been’ theology . . .

Adam and Eve are ‘seventh day’ man and woman (Gen. 2:7+20-22), while the male and female of Genesis 1:26-28 were created on the ‘sixth day.’ Are we having difficulty with the simple act of reading God’s Word for what it ‘does’ say?? Mr. Sparky here believes Genesis 2 and the ‘seventh day’ is a mere rehashing of sixth day events, which throws his entire storyline out of joint. Therefore, he is forced to rely upon what ‘could have been’ in order to fill in the obvious holes. Hey that is all fine and good, until he has the audacity to say to me,

Sparkey >> “Terrel; if you want to put your trust in Sumerian mythology that is your prerogative. I'll stick with what the Bible says.”

Heh . . . what a joke . . .

Sparky >> The Bible does not elaborate on this point. Perhaps some of Cain's anonymous brothers & sisters had already taken up residence in the Land of Nod.

LOL . . . These guys can make you fall over laughing . . . He refuses to acknowledge the simple truth that the six creative days of Genesis 1 are days TO GOD. The sixth day people were running around in the Land of Nod ‘beyond’ the ‘presence of the Lord’ and Cain found a suitable candidate and started having children.

Sparky >> Interestingly, the Bible also does not reveal how long he lived in Nod before his wife became pregnant. Weeks? Months? Years? Who knows?

Scripture does connect his wife, their pregnancy and the building of the city bearing his name in Genesis 4:17; NONE of which you can connect to Cain’s experiences in the ‘presence of the Lord.’ However, you just continue believing what “could have been” . . . .

Sparky >> There is no need to invent a seperate group of people, unrelated to Adam & Eve and their children, living in Nod.

Let’s see: What day did these events take place?

“Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth . . . God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day." Genesis 1:26-28+31.

Man need invent nothing that God already created . . .

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

Originally posted by stalkingwolf

There are over 2000 denominations of professing Christians in the USA alone, which means at least that many interpretations of the same Scriptures.

Yep 2000 denominations all reading the same faery tales, all claiming to be the only right way.
2000 of ya and ya cant even decide among yourselves who is right. Yet you have the
unmitigated brass balls to tell me IM wrong? Go back yo your seminaries and decide among yourselves first.

This made me laughs so hard.......I almost spit my sodat at the monitor

Terral is "OWNING' the sun guy and sparky.. I havent been able to post anything i've been working overtime, but Terral YOU ARE DA MAN...but out of curiosity, sparky and sun guy are you guys religious figures or how can I say this....leader or advisor of any church? If you are christians you guys sound awfully angry to hear different 'views' as to the ones you beleive in. I am njot a christian I just read alot of stuff and thought I would chip in my 2 cents..i'll post again when I get a chance...until then...give it to them Terral oh and for the guy that doesnt throw stones but carries a sword..... there was an ATS member that had a signature that said that people who live by the sword get shot by the ones that dont.. excuse the format am in a rush...

Originally posted by angelslayer

Originally posted by stalkingwolf

There are over 2000 denominations of professing Christians in the USA alone, which means at least that many interpretations of the same Scriptures.

Yep 2000 denominations all reading the same faery tales, all claiming to be the only right way.
2000 of ya and ya cant even decide among yourselves who is right. Yet you have the
unmitigated brass balls to tell me IM wrong? Go back yo your seminaries and decide among yourselves first.

This made me laughs so hard.......I almost spit my sodat at the monitor

I would have laughed too except I understand that just because a church says Christ Jesus on the door doesn't make it so.

Open the door and check the fruit and you'll understand where these false teaching come from.