Mason Obession

Greetings,
perhaps, if you truly seek the reality of freemasons, what it was, what it has become, where it's going, you might go to google video and reference JORDAN MAXWELL...and view a few of his speeches, exposes', etc... BUT, BE PREPARED..you'll learn that EVERYTHING YOU THINK YOU KNOW... IS WRONG!!!

Blessings

leftydave




[edit on 30-8-2006 by intrepid]

what happened to my responce?

It is because when people learn about them in their own little way they start to realize how decipetful the whole fraternal org is.
People start to realize the power of symbols and craft magick that is practiced behind close doors in secret by these masons and it makes them wonder why?.
They see how history has transcribed many decieptful masons that were and are current world leaders, they see how off shoots of secret orgs such as the skull and bones aka (Mortal Builder acording to the encycopedia of freemasonry) signifies the secrets these fraternal orgs hold.
Then you have all the so called Free Masons defending and rediculing every ounce of crediable information that is said about them which in my opinion only shows there treachery,( look how they argue about degrees and such) but then again how can one defend something he knows nothign of and I say this because if you are just starting out as a mason you must follow the mandate of your master and not question what is to come of you in the fraternal org.
Alot of people's refrnece to or about Free Masons is directed at alot of the old ways that have been munipulated and changed over time. Keeping its members busy performing ritual over and over again to attain perfection in performing this ritual with no teaching. This causes a member's heart to be hardened by repetitious, empty ritual.

"Masonry, like all the Religions, all the Mysteries..., conceals its secrets from all except the Adepts and Sages, or the Elect, and uses false explanations and misinterpretations of its symbols to mislead those who deserve only to be mislead...Truth is not for those who are unworthy or unable to receive it, or would pervert it." This absolutely incredible statement means exactly what it says; Freemasonry misleads all people whom its Adepts determine could not accept the Pagan truth, even its own members. But, Pike continues, and this time he defames God. "So God Himself incapacitates many men ...and leads the masses away from the highest Truth..." This statement simultaneously defames God's Nature and reveals the occultic nature of Freemasonry. First, God has clearly set out a simple Plan of Salvation that the masses could clearly understand. In fact, God's anger is over arrogant human pride, and it is only from these type people that God ever hid any spiritual truth. On the other hand, Freemasonry clearly believes the old occultic lie that true spiritual truth is only meant for those few who were willing to submit to the Mysteries, going through their many degrees to achieve "Illumination".

source

Many men become freemasons because they are invited to do so by colleagues who are usually further up the social scale than they are themselves. Men are led to understand that by joining the lodge they will enjoy many benefits and opportunities in society which they would not otherwise enjoy. Freemasons will almost always favor each other above someone else who is not a member of the lodge. Business opportunities, special favors, invitations to positions of influence are some of the benefits enjoyed by many devoted members of the lodge.
Many freemasons go no further than the Master Mason level (3rd level). However, those that press on to study for the rituals of the higher levels of the York or Scottish rites soon learn that there are mysteries which those at the lower levels are not permitted to know. In fact, they find out that those at lower levels are deliberately misled concerning the doctrine and practices of freemasonry. Those who have earned the right to know can be proud of their superiority over the rest of the ignorant masses. There is the constant lure of increased esoteric knowledge, power and influence for those who "climb the mountain" of masonic advancement. Of course this appeals to human nature. There is a strong desire in natural men for power, control, influence, recognition and secret knowledge. Freemasonry promises this to its loyal devotees.


So tell me hobbs what level of masonry have you aquired?



It is not simply against
future conspiracies of evil men
which we, have to guard ourselves
But the weakness and fault in our social order,
in our own ways of living....
Against which we have to be on constant guard.

[edit on 30-8-2006 by seridium]

Originally posted by seridium
It is because when people learn about them in their own little way they start to realize how decipetful the whole fraternal org is.

By learning, do you mean Googling up some website, and swallowing the tripe contained therein as truth? Man, some people can be such *sheep*.

People start to realize the power of symbols and craft magick that is practiced behind close doors in secret by these masons and it makes them wonder why?.

I kinda wish that was true. Magic would be nifty! A shame there is no such thing, at least in the sense you are using the word.

As well, noone has ever put forth credible proof that masons practice any sort of magic or paranormal abilities. Why? Because it's not true.

They see how history has transcribed many decieptful masons that were and are current world leaders

Yet again, you nor anyone else has been able to produce a credible list of 'all these deceiptful masons that are current world leaders'. Why? Because it's not true.

they see how off shoots of secret orgs such as the skull and bones aka (Mortal Builder acording to the encycopedia of freemasonry) signifies the secrets these fraternal orgs hold.

Again, the Skull and Bones society is not masonic. No one has brought forth any credible evidence of it being masonic, or anything more than a rich kids college club. Why? Because it's not true.

Then you have all the so called Free Masons

Oooh... good tactic. Claim that we aren't the droids you are looking for, and thus don't know anything. Awesome.

defending and rediculing every ounce of crediable information that is said about them which in my opinion only shows there treachery

Show one bit of credible information, and we'll talk. Heresay does not count as credible, as any court would agree. Nor do random web pages or books, for the same reason.

( look how they argue about degrees and such)

Do you mean among ourselves, or with outsiders?

but then again how can one defend something he knows nothign of

You have quite a good point there. As well, how can you *accuse* something you know nothing about?

I know about Freemasonry because I am a Freemason. You are not.

and I say this because if you are just starting out as a mason you must follow the mandate of your master and not question what is to come of you in the fraternal org.

Hmm, actually I disagree rather heavily with some of the things my lodge's master has said or done. And there is nothing wrong with it. We're not bound to follow anything blindly.

Alot of people's refrnece to or about Free Masons is directed at alot of the old ways that have been munipulated and changed over time.

Aha. So, you are saying that the Bad Things that masons do, are really things they USED to do, but that have been weeded out over time?

So, then why are you still upset with them?

This causes a member's heart to be hardened by repetitious, empty ritual.

Heh. You sound like an officer. Or a Catholic.

Many men become freemasons because they are invited to do so by colleagues who are usually further up the social scale than they are themselves.

Not true at all. Noone is invited.

And if a brother joined looking for such benefits, they'd be sorely disappointed.

Freemasons will almost always favor each other above someone else who is not a member of the lodge.

Example?

Business opportunities, special favors, invitations to positions of influence are some of the benefits enjoyed by many devoted members of the lodge.

Example?

However, those that press on to study for the rituals of the higher levels of the York or Scottish rites soon learn that there are mysteries which those at the lower levels are not permitted to know. In fact, they find out that those at lower levels are deliberately misled concerning the doctrine and practices of freemasonry.

So tell me hobbs what level of masonry have you aquired?

I am a 3rd degree mason, the highest one can go. I have deliberately not joined either of those rites, however.

Ok, here's a challenge, then. Tell me what I am being misled on. Convince me, and I will demit tonight. I promise to be completely fair in listening to you. Enlighten me. Save me.

Back up your words with concrete, and I will happily join your side of the 'fight'. I would never knowingly belong to an evil and underhanded group.

To answer an earlier question, I mainly starting logging in to ATS for the Cryptozoology forum, but when I found the Secret Societies forum, and saw the slander posted by some pretty ignorant and prejudiced people I couldn't resist responding.

Can you blame a guy for that? If you saw lies being posted about something you cared about, would you not take the time to respond? Furthermore, is this not more believable than the fantasy scenario of an organised cell of Freemasons pumping out misinformation in a concerted manner? I can only attribute the most extreme of the vitriol to 4 things: Prejudice, poor media sources, escapism/fantasy, and (in one or two cases) mental illness.

The ATS motto is Deny Ignorance and I actually started taking it to heart. I've seen my fraternal brothers here doing the same, but being branded as misinformation agents. YET their posted writings remain unrebutted except by flimsy ad hominem arguments that are not worthy of ATS.

Anyway, I don't mean to derail the thread. I just wanted to answer the question that was posted earlier. I think I've said my piece.

I personally have little against masons, I just ran into some bad ones, I honestly don't know much about them to be honest and would love to know a little more.

the only thing I complained about was how some affiliated with them treated me but they could've been just snobs too I suppose.

Leftydave, thanks for the suggestion, i'll watch those video's you suggested.

Originally posted by Hobbes

Originally posted by seridium
It is because when people learn about them in their own little way they start to realize how decipetful the whole fraternal org is.

By learning, do you mean Googling up some website, and swallowing the tripe contained therein as truth? Man, some people can be such *sheep*.

People start to realize the power of symbols and craft magick that is practiced behind close doors in secret by these masons and it makes them wonder why?.

I kinda wish that was true. Magic would be nifty! A shame there is no such thing, at least in the sense you are using the word.

As well, noone has ever put forth credible proof that masons practice any sort of magic or paranormal abilities. Why? Because it's not true.

I said Craft Magick not Paranormal activities not real magick just plain old simple ritualistic craft magick, the better thing to describe it as is Rituals.

They see how history has transcribed many decieptful masons that were and are current world leaders

Yet again, you nor anyone else has been able to produce a credible list of 'all these deceiptful masons that are current world leaders'. Why? Because it's not true.

America's first President, George Washington, had been a Mason. So were many other Founding Fathers, including Ethan Allen, John Paul Jones, Paul Revere, John Hancock, and Benjamin Franklin. Eight of the 56 signatures on the Declaration of Independence belonged to avowed Masons, as well as nine on the Constitution.

In 1832, the Anti-Masonic Party managed to elect Millard Fillmore to Congress, but their candidate for President received only seven votes in the Electoral College. He was crushed by Andrew Jackson... who was a Mason.

Freemasons claim that their group dates back to the stonemason guilds of the Middle Ages, some even say it reaches back to the building of King Solomon's Temple in 850 B.C. No one really believes that. It was actually founded in 1717 by a bunch of affluent Englishmen with too much time on their hands. The organization flourished and spread rapidly throughout the British empire; Masonic lodges appeared in the American colonies as early as the 1730s. A separate strain later popped up in France and swept across Europe.

Napoleon Bonaparte, French tyrant.
Henry Ford, auto manufacturor, racist.
Barry Goldwater, Senator.
Jesse Helms, Senator, homophobe.
J. Edgar Hoover, FBI director-for-life, homosexual.
Houdini, magician.
Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormon Church.
Brigham Young, another Mormon.
Oscar Wilde, noted author and homosexual.
Mark Twain, American author.
John Glenn, astronaut.
Samuel Hahnemann, started the Homeopathy fraud.
Charles Lindbergh, aviator, racist.
All seven of the Ringling Brothers.
Colonel Sanders, fat fried chicken tycoon.
Dave Thomas, fat Wendy's tycoon.
Telly Savalas, player.
Peter Sellers, pink panther.
Strom Thurmond, racist US Senator.
William Walker, advocate of Manifest Destiny.
Sir Winston Churchill, Prime Minister of Britain.
Aleister Crowley, the most evil man that ever was, 33rd degree.
U.S. Chief Justice Earl Warren, head of the Warren Commission.
Roberto Calvi, Vatican banker.
Abraham Zapruder, filmed John F. Kennedy assassination.

George Washington
John Hancock.
Patrick Henry, Give me Liberty or give me Death. Some claim that he was never a Mason.
Benjamin Franklin, inventor, printer, diplomat, patriot, womanizer. Arguably the most accomplished American that has ever lived.
Paul Revere
Ethan Allen
Thomas Jefferson, likely a Mason.
Additional Presidents who were Masons
Gerald Ford
William McKinley, assassinated by an anarchist.
James Garfield, assassinated President.
Theodore Roosevelt
Walt Disney 33° Freemason
Franklin D. Roosevelt
Harry S Truman
Warren G. Harding
William Howard Taft, the fattest President.
Andrew Johnson, the first impeached President.
James Monroe
Andrew Jackson
James Knox Polk
James Buchanan, the only bachelor US President.
Lyndon B. Johnson was a first degree Mason.
Ronald Reagan was an honorary Scottish Rite Mason, but not a Freemason.

I have also heard that these people are also masons since you are one could you please let me know if my sources are correct?
Saddam Hussein - 33° Freemason
King Hussein - 33° Freemason
Tony Blair - 33° Freemason
Gerhard Schroeder - 33° Freemason
Benjamin Netanyahu - 33° Freemason
Yasser Arafat - 33° Freemason
Michail Gorbatjov - 33° Freemason
Helmut Kohl - Committee of 300
Shimon Peres - 33° Freemason
Francois Mitterand - 33° Freemason (Grand Orient Lodge)
Yitzak Rabin - 33° Freemason
Al Gore - 33º Freemason
Robert McNamara

Freemasons will almost always favor each other above someone else who is not a member of the lodge.

Come on man, thats why you guys wear rings and other paraphanelia it is quite ovious what they are for.

Business opportunities, special favors, invitations to positions of influence are some of the benefits enjoyed by many devoted members of the lodge.

Well I would say all the way from building soloman's Temple to Founding the USA most masons have been scratching each others back's.

This thread has degenerated into nothing more than an amatuer attempt to make non-masons appear simple minded, jealous, superstitious, and even malicious.

Roark, you even referred to "slander posted by ignorant and prejudiced people"

How bout this one from Masonic Light "The World Honored One was known for his loving kindness and absolute compassion, but he never had to put up with this crap" Are you referring to Jesus as the world honored one? Ha Ha ha, that's really funny. And are you also implying that compassion and kindness are virtues to possibly strive for? If so then why do the replies from masons on this thread use insults and other means of communication to put down those of us who aren't in your brotherhood.

Ya know, it's not all that serious. So your a Mason.............And?

My original point is that since the organization has always been self proclaimed to be shrouded in mystery naturally some of us would want to know what is so "special" that it is kept secret.

Most teachings that are meant to assist mankind in growing out of his animal nature and to grow into a being which is capable of seeking redemption from the repetitive experiences of humanity that cause so much pain and sorrow would be shared with the masses in hopes of changing the non-working patterns that are continuously being recycled and relived and with the hope of creating a world where raw evil no longer had it's purpose.

The reason we want to know what Mason's believe and practice is somewhat so that if it is a path to return to a state of harmony and balance then maybe I would be interested in studying such ideas.

On the other hand if the teaching are something that encourages the participants to be their own God, then it would ring a bell reminding me of the Fallen Angels and thier desire to Be equal or above the most high.

If the premises the order is based on then why isn't the knowledge available to everyone, not just those of you who have chosen to set yourself apart from the average Joe with info which might allow you to play God on earth.

I believe because we were each one of us born that we have inherent value. Not more value for some than others based on what ever set of rules or birthright, etc. And that others have less value because of their unfortunate circumstances.

If you didn't desire power over others you simply would share the truth if you possessed it. The casting pearls before swine argument doesn't cut it because that is judgement of some people to be as swine. If someone misused knowledge that could cause harm, so be it. They would have their own Karma.

What about the difference between fire baptism and water baptism. Is that an example of the distorted truth for the layman while members of mystery teachings are allowed the opportunity to advance spiritually then wouldn't that be wrong? Shouldn't truth be available to all and how each individual handles such truth, good or bad, would result in thier own karmic journey?

Why do you desire secrets? Are you afraid the masses may not be controllable if truth was shared. Would you feel less powerful yourself with out the advantage of teachings which would equal the playing field?
If the truth is being hoarded from the masses and the illusion of the religious systems is keeping the masses from breaking free of this earthly prison and kept stuck in our predictable realities then I see a problem.

I see a world where some feel it is thier right and responsibility to run the world and keep the "ignorant" right where they won't be a threat.

Power has no value if there are no subjects to have power over and one way to achieve that is to withhold empowing informations.

As far as the organization of the Masons, most likely you are simply a smoke screen to hide the identity of the true entities who wish to enslave mankind. Most of you are clueless and just want to belong to something which makes you feel important. Most of you know less than myself when it comes to layers of knowledge, and I don't know much!

I do know that you take yourselves and your organization way to seriously just by reading this thread.

You still never responded in anyway about the importance of measurement and and sacred geometry and why the Masons are so interested in such.

You are just misguided little club goers, don't think it's you we're interested in. The real power sits and lets you create confusion and chaos while they continue on with their agenda that YOU don't even know about and you are one of them! But most likely you will never achieve any true power, because true power happens without verbal understanding

Originally posted by Roark
I don't doubt for a second that some members of Freemasonry have been involved in crime, just like any other organisation. It has absolutely no bearing on the inherent goodness (or otherwise) of the Order. Like any organisation, it is composed of human beings, who are flawed creatures.

What is laughable to ME is that you expect people to somehow believe that the brotherhood is evil based purely on your conjecture, sweeping generalisations, and negative opinion.

Can not part of the white house be evil and most people in the government be relatively innocent in comparison? Can not masonic leadership be evil and most masons average citizens just so eager to 'get ahead?'

Your logic has no logical basis in reality other than rhetoric to defend your mates.

Originally posted by seridium
I have also heard that these people are also masons since you are one could you please let me know if my sources are correct?
Saddam Hussein - 33° Freemason
King Hussein - 33° Freemason
Tony Blair - 33° Freemason
Gerhard Schroeder - 33° Freemason
Benjamin Netanyahu - 33° Freemason
Yasser Arafat - 33° Freemason
Michail Gorbatjov - 33° Freemason
Helmut Kohl - Committee of 300
Shimon Peres - 33° Freemason
Francois Mitterand - 33° Freemason (Grand Orient Lodge)
Yitzak Rabin - 33° Freemason
Al Gore - 33º Freemason

None of the above are freemasons, let alone AASR masons. Why does everyone have to be 33º in the fantasy world of the anti-mason?

Your source is not correct. What is your source?

Robert McNamara

Who's he?

One more inflammatory remark:

Although alot of history points to female deities as keepers of wisdom, isn't it true that in a masons heart of hearts the real goal is to BE GOD?

And why is Cain so much a part of the legends? Did Lucifer seed a bloodline and is he still trying to beat God by being God here on earth?

Just a thought. I am sure you can find some more words to convey your grasp of my ignorance.

By joining up you sold out, simple as that. No more exploration for you. Now you just follow protocal and get initiated. No need to think for yourself, eh?

That is lazy and that is being a soldier. You are no longer free when you belong to a group who determines what is and what is not

Originally posted by Hobbes
Roark, you're getting one of my WATS votes for that one... well said.

Originally posted by denythestatusquo
There is reems of material out there critical of masonry and until people read it and study it they cannot articulate for either side.

99% of what I've seen is completely ludicrous, completely contradictory to my own experience as a member of the fraternity. How much drivel am I expected to read, before I'm allowed to comment?

Furthermore the secretive nature of the organization and the levers of power would make even stupid people nervous about their intentions.

Too easy... I'm just going to let that statement stand on it's own.

Then there is the obvious issue of whether Freemasonry is a religion or not? It has all the tenets of what a religion is yet it still denies that it is one.

Let's pretend, for the sake of argument, that Freemasonry is indeed a religion.

So what? Why would you care? What would be wrong with it being a religion?

You give out your WATS votes very easily I see.

I hope that mods don't punish me for not editing your post but all of it is relevant to my response here...?

99% is false? wow why didn't you call them outright liars and frauds then? I think what you really mean is this: you are a low level mason in love with the organization and a known defender of them here (it is your job as a brother too right??), and your experience is limited.

if high level masons defect and tell all... I'm guessing they are telling things YOU DO NOT PERSONALLY KNOW ABOUT... But WAIT... you in fact admit that here!! Viola!!

What about the intentions of Freemasons? too hot for you to handle? My understanding is this: the illumined ones believe they are superior and only they are to be trusted with the truth (which is not the truth btw..), and they have the right to control and deceive all others.. not worthy. They do admit to this in the writings as YOU KNOW.

You admit that masonry is a religion which I KNOW IT IS... A religion that is LUCIFERIAN in nature.

It was for the sake of argument that he pretended Freemasonry was a religion.

You two, in particular, are so obtuse it beggars belief.

I have no doubt whatsoever that trying to convince you of reality is fruitless. One can only attempt to correct your innumerable fallacies for the sake of the hypothetical newbie who may stumble across them and somehow mistake them for facts.

Someday you are going to be very, very embarrassed.

Who area "you two"

What is a hypothetical newbie? Your interpetation of someone who just stumbles on information and creates a hypothisis?''

Roark, why why why are you so defensive? You aren't being attacked for your affiliaton with the Masons, although it appears you are in deep denial and your focus is on others obsevation rather than your own convictions.

It's OK, cause even if I am way off in my understanding I am at least attempting to analyze a variety of ideas. If I'm wrong then so what. Maybe I will be right if I continue to seek. Unlike those who think they got it all figured out!!!!

Open your mind. Even the Bible mentions the phrase eyes to see and ears to hear. I take that to mean you need to not take things on face value

I apologise if I've given you the impression that I've got it all figured out. I don't. There are many subjects and issues of which I am completely ignorant. The difference between myself and some people here is that I avoid discussing them in an authoritative manner. I try to stick to what I know.

Additionally, you have mistaken my above post as defensiveness. Rather, it was frustration at denythestatusquo's blatant and unashamed twisting of Hobbe's words into a bare-faced lie. I have been quite defensive of Freemasonry here since I registered, though. In light of the sheer lunacy of some of the accusations, I see that as perfectly reasonable.

In reference to what you said about being wrong: I couldn't agree more! Being wrong, and then trying to correct one's mistakes or perceptions, is part of the human condition. It's the people who knowingly spread lies and slander who tick me off.

This thread has degenerated into nothing more than an amatuer attempt to make non-masons appear simple minded, jealous, superstitious, and even malicious.

Not very hard from where i stand. Oh and by the by I am not, and never have been
a Mason. And I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

If the premises the order is based on then why isn't the knowledge available to everyone, not just those of you who have chosen to set yourself apart from the average Joe with info which might allow you to play God on earth.

To address the bolded(my bolding) question. It is today all of the knowledge and teachings once guarded from people like you is available if you could overcome
your terminal HUYA. At the founding of the Masonic Organization, what ever date you believe it to be , mid 1600s, early 1300s, or before. there was a real and present danger from the church and its zelots (perhaps some of your ancestors?)
one example should surfice Galeleo. However on the other side of that you have the
Malleus, Witch trials, the inquisition (which the present Pope was the head of in his day), and the list goes on.

Originally posted by interestedalways


How bout this one from Masonic Light "The World Honored One was known for his loving kindness and absolute compassion, but he never had to put up with this crap" Are you referring to Jesus as the world honored one?

I was speaking of the Buddha, as Roark mentioned he was in "loving kindness mode" due to attending Dhamma classes. "World Honored One" is a title applied to the Buddha in some branches of Zen Buddhism.

And are you also implying that compassion and kindness are virtues to possibly strive for? If so then why do the replies from masons on this thread use insults and other means of communication to put down those of us who aren't in your brotherhood.

Be for real, interestedalways. Anti-Masons come on here and accuse of the most heinous, as well as the most ridiculous, crimes imaginable, and when we point out that they're lying, you then claim we're insulting them. Gimme a break.

My original point is that since the organization has always been self proclaimed to be shrouded in mystery naturally some of us would want to know what is so "special" that it is kept secret.

We've never claimed there's something special that is kept secret. That's just what you guys say.

The reason we want to know what Mason's believe and practice is somewhat so that if it is a path to return to a state of harmony and balance then maybe I would be interested in studying such ideas.

If you honestly want to know what Masons practice and believe, I would suggest the following books:

"The Builders" by Dr. Joseph Fort Newton
"The Mens House" by Dr. Joseph Fort Newton
"A Comprehensive View of Freemasonry" by Henry Wilson Coil
"Jurisprudence of Freemasonry" by Dr. Albert Mackey
"A Bridge To Light" by Dr. Rex Hutchens
"Morals and Dogma" by Albert Pike

On the other hand if the teaching are something that encourages the participants to be their own God, then it would ring a bell reminding me of the Fallen Angels and thier desire to Be equal or above the most high.

One who believes he's his own god is obviously an atheist. Freemasonry only admits men who believe in a Higher Power than themselves.

If the premises the order is based on then why isn't the knowledge available to everyone, not just those of you who have chosen to set yourself apart from the average Joe with info which might allow you to play God on earth.

There isn't any "knowledge" in Freemasonry that isn't available to everyone else. Freemasonry provides a medium where men of like mind may congregate, but does not claim to have some sort of special "knowledge" outside of of its own function as a fraternal order.

I believe because we were each one of us born that we have inherent value. Not more value for some than others based on what ever set of rules or birthright, etc. And that others have less value because of their unfortunate circumstances.

Interesting because, after all, what you've just described is the Masonic ideal of Equality, symbolized in Freemasonry by the Level.

If you didn't desire power over others you simply would share the truth if you possessed it. The casting pearls before swine argument doesn't cut it because that is judgement of some people to be as swine. If someone misused knowledge that could cause harm, so be it. They would have their own Karma.

The "pearls before swine" argument was used by Christ, and I'm pretty confident in His judgement.

However, this has more to do with Adeptship than Freemasonry, and I don't want to confuse the two. One certainly does not need to be a Mason in order to become an Adept, nor do most Masons have any idea or even interest in the knowledge of the Adept.

What about the difference between fire baptism and water baptism. Is that an example of the distorted truth for the layman while members of mystery teachings are allowed the opportunity to advance spiritually then wouldn't that be wrong? Shouldn't truth be available to all and how each individual handles such truth, good or bad, would result in thier own karmic journey?

I don't know, but none of that applies to Freemasonry. One's belief in baptism is his own business, and is not called into question by the Masonic fraternity.

Why do you desire secrets? Are you afraid the masses may not be controllable if truth was shared. Would you feel less powerful yourself with out the advantage of teachings which would equal the playing field?
If the truth is being hoarded from the masses and the illusion of the religious systems is keeping the masses from breaking free of this earthly prison and kept stuck in our predictable realities then I see a problem.

It's not my fault that people believe bizarre myths. And it's also certainly not fair to blame Masonry for it, as most Masons also adhere to exoteric religious forms. Masonry simply says that everyone has the right to believe whatever they want, providing only that it doesn't conflict with the rights of others.

But I think you may have also touched upon the pearls before swine argument, and I'll try to elaborate. Let's say you walk into a mosque full of Islamic fundamentalists in Yemen. You then take the imam's podium, and began explaining to them that Allah is symbolic of the universal life force, that God manifests only in love, that to partake of the Divine Wisdom we must love our neighbor, and that the Qu'ran is not literally true.

Do you honestly think those guys are going to thank you for enlightening them? Or would they be more likely to behead you for blasphemy?

I see a world where some feel it is thier right and responsibility to run the world and keep the "ignorant" right where they won't be a threat.

Power has no value if there are no subjects to have power over and one way to achieve that is to withhold empowing informations.

But the Adepts are not obssessed with power. They are obssessed with God, Truth, and the Universal Harmony.

As far as the organization of the Masons, most likely you are simply a smoke screen to hide the identity of the true entities who wish to enslave mankind.

"Most likely"? See, that's what I mean about the claims you guys make. They're simply imaginary, along with paranoid.

Most of you are clueless and just want to belong to something which makes you feel important. Most of you know less than myself when it comes to layers of knowledge, and I don't know much!

Masons know exactly what Masonry is. It isn't us who has so much trouble understanding it.

I do know that you take yourselves and your organization way to seriously just by reading this thread.

Indeed I do take it very seriously. For example, without the existence of the Masonic fraternity, the very country I live in would not be free.

You still never responded in anyway about the importance of measurement and and sacred geometry and why the Masons are so interested in such.

"The Masons", as an organization, aren't. A few Masons are interested in such things, but the vast majority couldn't care less.

You are just misguided little club goers, don't think it's you we're interested in. The real power sits and lets you create confusion and chaos while they continue on with their agenda that YOU don't even know about and you are one of them! But most likely you will never achieve any true power, because true power happens without verbal understanding

"True power" lies in harmonizing oneself with the world, and the worlds beyond. It cannot be found in things like politics, money, etc., that you anti-Masonic people constantly obsess over.

Originally posted by interestedalways
One more inflammatory remark:

Although alot of history points to female deities as keepers of wisdom, isn't it true that in a masons heart of hearts the real goal is to BE GOD?

No, it isn't true. All Masons believe in a power higher than themselves. In Masonry, the Higher Power is referred to as the Great Architect of the Universe.

And why is Cain so much a part of the legends?

Cain does not appear in Masonic legend. Perhaps you are confusing him with Tubal-Kain, who was a blacksmith and craftsman spoken of in the scriptures.

Did Lucifer seed a bloodline and is he still trying to beat God by being God here on earth?

Did Zeus? Did Krishna? All of these are subjective questions concerning religious opinions. I would say "Lucifer" is nothing more than Apollo, the sun. The Christians didn't begin calling their devil by that name until much later.

By joining up you sold out, simple as that. No more exploration for you. Now you just follow protocal and get initiated. No need to think for yourself, eh?

I think the problem of thinking for yourself is one that you may suffer from. You seem to be almost so completely brainwashed by anti-masonic propaganda that you're unable to think outside the box for even a moment, and consider the opposing argument. Once that happens, one is indeed lost.

Originally posted by interestedalways

By joining up you sold out, simple as that. No more exploration for you. Now you just follow protocal and get initiated. No need to think for yourself, eh?

That is lazy and that is being a soldier. You are no longer free when you belong to a group who determines what is and what is not

Shows how little you know.

Masonic ritual specifically urges new masons to INVESTIGATE FOR THEMSELVES, and decide for themselves what they choose to believe in.

I can't speak for other lodges, but in the Grand Lodge of Texas, there is a "Lodge of Research" which is composed of masons who specifically want to do research on masonic topics.

Additionally, the local lodge I belong to holds regularly scheduled "informational discussions during the lodge meeting. We take a few minutes, and someone gives a presentation on the history of some aspect of masonry, or explores the symbolism of the ritual. I should know, I served as Chaplain and education officers for several years.

From what I see, the narrow-minded bigotry comes from a different corner.

Originally posted by Hobbes

Originally posted by seridium
( look how they argue about degrees and such)

Do you mean among ourselves, or with outsiders?

what about how you masons argue there are only 3 actuall degrees? I have argued this point before and you masons are still in denial.
The 33 degree represented in picture form inyoru encyclopedia of freemasonry shows clearly all the degrees which are way more than 3 But still you all claim there are only 3 but clearly there are more than that, but you will redicule and demean anyone who can tell you differentthan that right?

what about how you masons argue there are only 3 actuall degrees? I have argued this point before and you masons are still in denial.
The 33 degree represented in picture form in your Encyclopedia Of Freemasonry shows clearly all the degrees which are way more than 3 But still you all claim there are only 3 but clearly there are more than that, but you will redicule and demean anyone who can tell you different than that right?
Freemasonry requires lots of well-meaning, well-feeling footsoldiers to
advance freemasonry. This is what the 3rd degree masons are, merely window
dressing to put a good face on the cult.

After some more reading and comprehending I have come to conclude that the whole Rite then Consists of thirty- three degrees, which are divided into seven sections, each section being under an appropriate jurisdiction, and are as follows: but yet you mason try and tell me different see the nonsense here


Symbolic Lodge.
1. Entered Apprentice
2. Fellow- Craft
3. MAster Mason ( to teach the imortality of the soul )

the next that follow are called blue or Symbolic degrees. They are not confered in england, Scotland, Ireland, or in the United States, because the supreme Concils of the Rite have refrained from exercising jurisdiction through respect to the older authority in thoses countries of the York and American Rite.

Lodge of Perfection.
4° through to 14°

Council Of Prince of Jerusalem.
15° - 16°

Chapter of Red Croix.
17° - 18°

Council Of Kadosh.
19° - 30°

Consistory of Sublime PRinces of the Royal Secret.
31° - 32°

Supreme Council.
33° Sovereign Grand Inspector-General.

but then again how can one defend something he knows nothign of

Wow Seems I know something hey? its called information that is available to anyone with a internet connection.


[edit on 31-8-2006 by seridium]