Israel the biggest threat to World Peace - E.U.

And many Jews and Israelis are actually AGAINST Zionism.

99% of my gripes with Israel are actually gripes with Zionists.

Plus, I tend to play devil's advocate a bit, I'm not nearly as one-sided as I seem.

But there are people around here who defend everything Israel does no matter what, so I kind of feel I need to be more vociferous in my denunciations.

Just don't tell Seeker.



jako

Originally posted by Jakomo
And many Jews and Israelis are actually AGAINST Zionism.

99% of my gripes with Israel are actually gripes with Zionists.

Plus, I tend to play devil's advocate a bit, I'm not nearly as one-sided as I seem.

But there are people around here who defend everything Israel does no matter what, so I kind of feel I need to be more vociferous in my denunciations.

Just don't tell Seeker.



jako

Absotively, Jak. You are totally correct. I think the problem with so many is simply not understanding these nuances. That's one reason I posted the article. It's important for people to understand the history of Zionism and how it has affected everything. That was, of course, only scratching the surface. Keep fightin' the good fight.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Seekerof, most intelligent and google mad....

ADL would not be a good source to quote on anything regarding Jews, Arabs, and hate.

The ADL is a terrorist organization in my opinion, tho they attack not with bombs and guns, but with legal swindling, defamation, witness intimidation, threats, harrassment, ect.

No, I despise the ADL, they are a bunch of jack booted thugs.

Are you confusing the ADL with the JDL?

The Anti-Defamation League mostly gathers information on racism with an emphasis on anti-Semitism. Sometimes they get involved in legal action in extreme cases.

The Jewish Defense League is a lot more pro-active, like the Black Panthers. They hold martial arts classes for Jews, show up for protests (both pro and anti) and when someone burns a cross on someone�s lawn, they might come around and burn a Nazi flag is someone else�s yard.

Here are some links so people can compare the two organizations:

www.adl.org...

www.jdl.org...

Originally posted by Jakomo
Of course, rather than accept any responsibility whatsoever, the Israeli government just launches an "Anti-Semite!" salvo of explanations.

Criticism of a country's policies is not a racist attack on that country's people.

If I criticize Israel, and someone calls me an anti-semite for it, I'm insulted that

1) they equate my criticism of a country's policies to a personal attack on an entire race of people

2) they think that by trying to label me as a hatemongerer that it somehow invalidates my argument.

59% of Europeans can't be wrong.

www.islam-online.net...

"Israel �Top Threat To World Peace": E.U. Poll


Sharansky said the survey was proof that anti-Semitism lay behind political criticism of Israel

LONDON, November 2 (IslamOnline.net & News Agencies) - A yet-to-be published European Commission poll of 7,500 Europeans describes Israel as "the top threat to world peace", according to leaked results of the poll carried out by Spanish and British papers.

Expectedly, the results of the poll - conducted in October - drew fire from Israel and major Jewish groups worldwide.

The survey of 500 people from each of the European Union's member nations included a list of 15 countries with the question, 'tell me if in your opinion it presents or not a threat to peace in the world'.

Spanish daily El Pais reported that 59 percent of Europeans rate Israel as the most threatening country, ahead of the United States, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan and North Korea.

The results appear to be a mark of the widespread disapproval in Europe of the tactics employed by the Israeli government of Ariel Sharon during the Intifada, reported the Guardian.

The full results of the survey for the European Commission will be published Monday, November 3.

"Anti-Semitism"

The poll results already sparked a major backlash Sunday, with the usual charges of anti-Semitism.

Israeli Diaspora Affairs Minister Nathan Sharansky said the survey was proof that anti-Semitism lay behind political criticism of Israel.

"The European Union, which shows sensitivity on human rights issues, would do well to stop the rampant brainwashing against and demonizing of Israel before Europe deteriorates once again to dark sections of its past," he told Yediot Aharonot newspaper Sunday.

Israeli government spokesman Avi Pazner, a former ambassador to Paris and Rome, claimed the poll lacked credibility for "lumping Israel together with such states".

He further blamed "Israel's negative image in European minds" on " negative reporting during the three-year-old Palestinian Intifada.

"I think the press coverage over the last three years has been unfair and unbalanced and has given a generally distorted picture of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict," Pazner told Agence France-Presse (AFP).

A leading U.S. Jewish lobby group had denounced the E.U. poll as "shocking" and "anti-Semitic".

The Los Angeles-based Simon Wiesenthal Center described the survey as "defying logic" and a "racist flight of fantasy."

"This poll is an indication that Europeans have bought in, 'hook, line and sinker', to the vilification and demonization campaign directed against the State of Israel and her supporters by European leaders and media," said the center's founder and dean, Rabbi Marvin Hier.

"These shocking results that Israel is the greatest threat to world peace, bigger than North Korea and Iran, defies logic and is a racist flight of fantasy," he added.

"That only shows that anti-Semitism is deeply embedded within European society, more then any other period since the end of WWII."

Rabbi Hier said that if the results of the survey were true, Israel should exclude the European Union from the Middle East peace process.

The Simon Wiesenthal Center claims 400,000 member families in the United States.


I wonder how many other people find this insulting? Maybe 59% of Europeans?

jakomo

blah blah blah LIBERALS!

Originally posted by Saphronia
Why is every thread turning into religious apocalyptic nonsense? My goodness you would think this board is run by chrisitian fundies.

Bottom line, man is the biggest threat to world peace. Once we realize it's our decision to build or destroy the world the safer and happier we all will become. God gave us freewill and the words of Jesus Christ. Some of you here are contradicting your own beliefs with raptures and anti-christ and Israel. Matt. 5:20-26 is the way Jesus said to handle disputes with neighbors and brothers...and not once does he say do it with murder and war. Which makes you all your own anti-christ for supporting murder and destruction and blaming it on Jesus to suit your own ends and delusions.

and that's as religious as I'll ever get.

That's more religious than you should have tried, as you should not try and tell me I'm contradicting my own beliefs by saying anything about the rapture. The statement in and of itself is illogical, and your attempts to say that by speaking of Biblical fact, we are our own anti-Christ is nothing more than your own way of saying
"Christian, shut up!", and I, for one, will not.

Furthermore, I imagine that you believe that anyone who holds true to the Word of God is a "Fundie", your way of attempting to ridicule anyone who believes in the God of the Bible. I call you on that, and will deny you your desire that we Christians shut up and sit down. We've done that long enough, and for that we have a crapped up country that is sinking furhter into the ooze while the rest of the world cheer it on.

As far as the board being run by fundies, were you to pay attention, you'd know that is not true. I suppose if you see two, you see too many, therefore you see the board run by us.

Well gentlemen (Jakomo, ECK, etc....), in all your skills in connecting the dots on Zionism, has the conclusion come that Zionism is just simply here to stay? Ain't going anywhere...won't disappear, won't go "poof"......
It's a fact of life and reality....save your links on trying to claim this and that about Zionism. Why? Doesn't really matter..."links" and connecting dots can be made on quite a few "movements or whatever" in the Arab world and Europe, as with anywhere else....Zionism is no different.


Found this article pertaining to the EU survey and "who" commissioned it, though not naming anyone...... How convenient.

"Islamic anti-Semitism like that of Nazis, says cardinal"
Link:
www.eubusiness.com...

"06 November 2003

Anti-Semitism that is rife in the Islamic world today is comparable to the anti-Semitism of the Nazi era, a Roman Catholic cardinal said Thursday.

"Today in all the Islamic world, in their media, the schools, there is an education of anti-Semitism... the worst anti-Semitism that you can imagine after that of the Nazis, or even equivalent to that of the Nazis," Cardinal Roberto Tucci told Radio Vatican.

Acknowledging that anti-Semitism existed in Europe, the Italian cardinal was speaking after a poll published Monday showed that Europeans believed Israel was the biggest threat to world peace.

"They cannot criticise us because we have reserves about their military attacks or their military reprisals against the Palestinians," he said.

"But we must not forget that for the Israelis living in Israel there is really a psychological state of being under siege,

"There is a need for maximum understanding for that," he added.

The opinion poll, commissioned by the European Union's executive body, provoked Israeli outrage.

"We are sorry that the poll was organised under the umbrella of the European Commission and that it was published at a time when efforts are underway to restart the roadmap," the retired cardinal said.

He was referring to the peace plan, backed by the European Union, Russia, the United Nations and the United States, which aims to end the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians that has cost almost 3,600 lives since the start of the Palestinian uprising three years ago."


regards
seekerof

"Christians, shut up!"

And that goes for the Jewish-Zionists and Muslims as well.
It�s your ridiculous belief that you are more special than others on this planet, that a "God" has chosen you from among everyone else; that he gave you a special piece of land that you can kill others over, if you disobey him you go to a place of fire and torture for the rest of eternity, that creates and fuels the problems in the mid-east.
Pathetic, pathetic, pathetic.
Time to join the 21st century you backward-ass morons! Meet other cultures, show them respect, keep you f**king moral opinions to yourself and LEARN from outside your narrow-little-neurological-perspectives.

Its time to start thinking for yourselves, though I don�t expect you will.

[End of transmission]

Originally posted by Voice_of Doom
"Christians, shut up!"

And that goes for the Jewish-Zionists and Muslims as well.
It�s your ridiculous belief that you are more special than others on this planet, that a "God" has chosen you from among everyone else; that he gave you a special piece of land that you can kill others over, if you disobey him you go to a place of fire and torture for the rest of eternity, that creates and fuels the problems in the mid-east.
Pathetic, pathetic, pathetic.
Time to join the 21st century you backward-ass morons! Meet other cultures, show them respect, keep you f**king moral opinions to yourself and LEARN from outside your narrow-little-neurological-perspectives.

Its time to start thinking for yourselves, though I don�t expect you will.

[End of transmission]

Atheist SHUT THE FU** UP!

Originally posted by EastCoastKid

Originally posted by Jakomo
And many Jews and Israelis are actually AGAINST Zionism.

99% of my gripes with Israel are actually gripes with Zionists.

Plus, I tend to play devil's advocate a bit, I'm not nearly as one-sided as I seem.

But there are people around here who defend everything Israel does no matter what, so I kind of feel I need to be more vociferous in my denunciations.

Just don't tell Seeker.



jako

Absotively, Jak.

You are totally correct. I think the problem with so many is simply not understanding these nuances. That's one reason I posted the article. It's important for people to understand the history of Zionism and how it has affected everything. That was, of course, only scratching the surface. Keep fightin' the good fight.

Oh yeah, those internet "anti-zionist" sites and anti-Zionist books do provide some "amazing", though not fully correct, information of Zionism............

Listen you two.....want to get into a "real" discussion on this? Start a new thread........
I'll be looking forward to it, since I have found some "rather interesting and enlightening" True/Real information here at the campus library where I attend and at the Virginai Tech and UVA campus's, for which they gladly sent me the material I needed and requested.....nice of them to do that, eh?

You guys think you got the real scope on what Zionism is all about because it "says so on the internet and those anti-Zionist articles and books....well, geeweez.............it must be the truth!......
Start a new thread on this and lets see how much you can back "your" information up, or we can see just how BS some information really is......
Just post it...I'll be glad to join in the discussion.......

Btw, ECK.....
Your article quotes this:
"Brenner isn�t the first writer to address the mostly taboo subject of how the Zionist leadership cooperated with the Nazis. Rolf Hilberg�s seminal �The Destruction of European Jews�; Hannah Arendt�s �Eichmann in Jerusalem�; Ben Hecht�s �Perfidy�; Edwin Black�s �The Transfer Agreement�; Francis R. Nicosia�s �The Third Reich and the Palestine Question�; Rudolf Vrba and Alan Bestic�s �I Cannot Forgive�; and Rafael Medoff�s �The Deadening Silence: American Jews and the Holocaust,� also dared, with varying public success."

The one's I have underlined.........
You may want to read....very interesting reads and do NOT support Mr. William Hughes's book review nor support the authors (Brenner) book: 51 Documnets:Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis.

Oh yeah....one would need to define "collaboration" and then do more than 'twist' the information to "suit-to-fit" as Brenner does. He is a "disciple" and follower of Alfred Rosenberg!
In fact, in The Third Reich and the Palestine Question, the author, Nicosia, pretty much says thus. Nicosia further goes onto call/state that it is all a "conspiracy theory" about Zionism......read page 21 of this book and see! Section entitled "Alfred Rosenberg, Zionism and the Conspiracy Theory"........

Amazing how authors can twist the crap out of anothers words....
All those books mentioned are only mentioned because they cover, in their respective books, the time period, and so on, dealing with the German/European Zionist movement, mainly in Germany, and do not justify the position nor entirely the "facts" presented by Brenner's book!



regards
seekerof

[Edited on 7-11-2003 by Seekerof]

And from a German source:
"Opinion: Is Germany Experiencing a Resurgence of Anti-Semitism?"
Link:
www.dw-world.de...

And this with it:

"Top General Sacked as Anti-Semitism Scandal Spreads"
Link:
www.dw-world.de...





regards
seekerof

Um, Mycroft...........

No, i was refering to the ADL. The JDL is in that same catagory of Terrorist/Bully/Mafia. Ive been to thier websites enough...... to know that they are different orgs, but the same brand of bullies.

JDL, let us not forget good old Irv Ruben, busted while plotting to blow up a mosque in LA.

The ADL does more than just collect information. they have lost quite a few suits against them by people who sued them for character assasination and libel. they have also been caught intimidating witnesses in hate groups trials, tampering with evidence, ect. the JDL loonies have been busted for harrassing and making death threats against people. They have even been busted for assault.

Both are extremist groups, pretty much both have hard ons for extreme Zionism. Both are rabidly anti Arab as well. The ADL, i was shocked, amongst its hategroups, had several pagan websites on its hate list that had no affiliation with Racism, they were listed because they either had symbols that racist groups had used (which are also symbols used by many pagan religions having nothing to do with race, but contacting thier ancestral roots), or those groups or religions had a member who was a racist. That would be like calling the Catholic church a organization of pedophilers because a few priests get frisky with the altar boys. If the boiyscouts had a known Nazi member, they would list the boy scouts as a hate group too.

Seekerof has the right idea: they are like those amnesty international nuts. Extremists, bullies, mafioso, crybabies.

Originally posted by Seekerof

Originally posted by EastCoastKid

Originally posted by Jakomo
And many Jews and Israelis are actually AGAINST Zionism.

99% of my gripes with Israel are actually gripes with Zionists.

Plus, I tend to play devil's advocate a bit, I'm not nearly as one-sided as I seem.

But there are people around here who defend everything Israel does no matter what, so I kind of feel I need to be more vociferous in my denunciations.

Just don't tell Seeker.



jako

Absotively, Jak.

You are totally correct. I think the problem with so many is simply not understanding these nuances. That's one reason I posted the article. It's important for people to understand the history of Zionism and how it has affected everything. That was, of course, only scratching the surface. Keep fightin' the good fight.

Oh yeah, those internet "anti-zionist" sites and anti-Zionist books do provide some "amazing", though not fully correct, information of Zionism............

Listen you two.....want to get into a "real" discussion on this? Start a new thread........
I'll be looking forward to it, since I have found some "rather interesting and enlightening" True/Real information here at the campus library where I attend and at the Virginai Tech and UVA campus's, for which they gladly sent me the material I needed and requested.....nice of them to do that, eh?

You guys think you got the real scope on what Zionism is all about because it "says so on the internet and those anti-Zionist articles and books....well, geeweez.............it must be the truth!......
Start a new thread on this and lets see how much you can back "your" information up, or we can see just how BS some information really is......
Just post it...I'll be glad to join in the discussion.......

Btw, ECK.....
Your article quotes this:
"Brenner isn�t the first writer to address the mostly taboo subject of how the Zionist leadership cooperated with the Nazis. Rolf Hilberg�s seminal �The Destruction of European Jews�; Hannah Arendt�s �Eichmann in Jerusalem�; Ben Hecht�s �Perfidy�; Edwin Black�s �The Transfer Agreement�; Francis R. Nicosia�s �The Third Reich and the Palestine Question�; Rudolf Vrba and Alan Bestic�s �I Cannot Forgive�; and Rafael Medoff�s �The Deadening Silence: American Jews and the Holocaust,� also dared, with varying public success."

The one's I have underlined.........
You may want to read....very interesting reads and do NOT support Mr. William Hughes's book review nor support the authors (Brenner) book: 51 Documnets:Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis.

Oh yeah....one would need to define "collaboration" and then do more than 'twist' the information to "suit-to-fit" as Brenner does. He is a "disciple" and follower of Alfred Rosenberg!
In fact, in The Third Reich and the Palestine Question, the author, Nicosia, pretty much says thus. Nicosia further goes onto call/state that it is all a "conspiracy theory" about Zionism......read page 21 of this book and see! Section entitled "Alfred Rosenberg, Zionism and the Conspiracy Theory"........

Amazing how authors can twist the crap out of anothers words....
All those books mentioned are only mentioned because they cover, in their respective books, the time period, and so on, dealing with the German/European Zionist movement, mainly in Germany, and do not justify the position nor entirely the "facts" presented by Brenner's book!

regards
seekerof

[Edited on 7-11-2003 by Seekerof]

I love it when you show up Seekerof.... You're always so much fun..

Find your own brain.

ECK....you have not disproved what I said...whats the problem.....you not using your brain as well?
Refute it!

BTW....I need to u2u as well.........

regards
seekerof

Originally posted by Seekerof
And from a German source:
"Opinion: Is Germany Experiencing a Resurgence of Anti-Semitism?"

This anti-semitism debate in Germany is the best proof that Israel's redundant allegations Europe is being antisemitic are the childish attempt to influence policy with fairytales.

As far as i understood these people have been sacked because one of them said that it is outdated to qualify entire people as being "a criminal people" (as it's sometimes being done by leading jewish figures in Germany, which by the way don't represent many german jews), and said that if one really wanted to qualify the Germans as being "a criminal people", one could also, given the proeminent jewish involvement in Bolchevism and especially the Tcheka Death Squads, qualify the jews as being " a criminal people", and that he rejects any of these qualifications where the actions of a few are used to criminalize an entire people.

He was sacked because that opinion was found to be "antisemitic"

Here ya go Moku.....explain these away also:

TIMELINE OF JEWISH PERSECUTIONS
Year Place

countless not recorded, then:

1. 250: Carthage
2. 415: Alexandria
3. 554: Diocese of Clement (France)
4. 561: Diocese of Uzzes (France)
5. 612: Visigoth Spain
6. 642: Visigoth Empire
7. 855: Italy
8. 876: Sens
9. 1012: Mayence
10. 1181: France
11. 1290: England
12. 1306: France
13. 1348: Switzerland
14. 1349: Hielbronn (Germany)
15. 1349: Hungary
16. 1388: Strasbourg
17. 1394: Germany
18. 1394: France
19. 1422: Austria
20. 1424: Fribourg & Zurich
21. 1426: Cologne
22. 1432: Savory
23. 1438: Mainz
24. 1439: Augsburg
25. 1446: Bavaria
26. 1453: Franconis
27. 1453: Breslau
28. 1454: Wurzburg
29. 1485: Vincenza (Italy)
30. 1492: Spain
31. 1495: Lithuania
32. 1497: Portugal
33. 1499: Germany
34. 1514: Strasbourg
35. 1519: Regensburg
36. 1540: Naples
37. 1542: Bohemia
38. 1550: Genoa
39. 1551: Bavaria
40. 1555: Pesaro
41. 1559: Austria
42. 1561: Prague
43. 1567: Wurzburg
44. 1569: Papal States
45. 1571: Brandenburg
46. 1582: Netherlands
47. 1593: Brandenburg, Austria
48. 1597: Cremona, Pavia & Lodi
49. 1614: Frankfort
50. 1615: Worms51. 1619: Kiev
52. 1649: Ukraine
53. 1654: LittleRussia
54. 1656: Lithuania
55. 1669: Oran (North Africa)
56. 1670: Vienna
57. 1712: Sandomir
58. 1727: Russia
59. 1738: Wurtemburg
60. 1740: Little Russia
61. 1744: Bohemia
62. 1744: Livonia
63. 1745: Moravia
64. 1753: Kovad (Lithuania)
65. 1761: Bordeaux
66. 1772: Jews deported to the Pale of Settlement (Russia)
67. 1775: Warsaw
68. 1789: Alace
69. 1804: Villages in Russia
70. 1808: Villages & Countrysides (Russia)
71. 1815: Lubeck & Bremen
72. 1815: Franconia, Swabia & Bavaria
73. 1820: Bremes
74. 1843: Russian Border Austria & Prussia
75. 1862: Area in the U.S. under Grant's Jurisdiction
76. 1866: Galatz, Romania
77. 1919: Bavaria (foreign born Jews)
78. 1938-45: Nazi Controlled Areas
79. 1948: Arab Countries


Europe is not anti-semetic? What then? They just don't like Jews or what?

How about this:
"Euro trash: Perversity & anti-Semitism lead Europeans to call Israel greatest threat to peace"
Link:
www.nydailynews.com...

According to this article...the EU is eatting crow.....

"Anti-Israel poll is unrealistic"
Link:
www.jpost.com.../JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1067838133368&p=1008596981749

Excerpt:
"The European Union said Monday a "misleading" survey in which more Europeans named Israel as a threat to world peace than any other country will not affect its Mideast policy."


Here is the actual poll:
Link:
europa.eu.int...



regards
seekerof

Seeker: Israel is CURRENTLY the biggest threat to world peace.

Bringing up Visigoth Spain in 612 A.D. , and their treatment of Jews proves what, exactly?

I'll debate Zionism with you anyday, it's a exclusionary, racist ideology that only PROMOTES hatred of Jews worldwide.

However, I suggested to you that I would debate you one-on-one about the Illegality of the Occupation and I never heard another word on it from you, so I won't be surprised if you chicken out again.



jakomo

How about chicken out of that u2u I sent you........
Can you think "Critically" and put aside your bias's?
We'll see, won't we.....
Won't need to be "debated"....as you will see by the u2u....all views and angles will be uncovered...all BS exposed and the truth hopefully brought to light.....
Chicken out of that...you have been cordially invited to partake.....can you handle the sort of thinking that will be required to do what is asked or given by the objectives?


regards
seekerof

[Edited on 10-11-2003 by Seekerof]

Seeker: I've already accepted. Give me 5 minutes to respond to your U2U before you start blasting me.


j