Originally posted by mythatsabigprobe
.............
Do I beleive the right wing media would go as far as fabricating an abduction to prove it's point? Yes, I do.

Do I believe that people like yourself would deny the facts and the truth just because of your own agenda and ignorance of world events and world history? Yes, I do believe so, and it is a shame because one day you might be the one who is in that situation.

I will ask you the same question I asked Jgruh4e. Are you saying that there has never been forced conversions to Islam in present day and never in the past people have been forced to accept Islam? If that is what you two are saying you are trying to change the world history and are trying to deny facts that have been known for millenia.


[edit on 28-8-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib

Are you saying that there are no forced conversions to Islam?.... or that never in the history of Islam they have forced, or tried to force entire nations and/or other ethnic groups?.... That is the propaganda and you are obviously either not aware of the truth or you don't want to admit the facts for whatever reason.

No, Muaddib, I am not saying that. I actually have no hidden meaning and what i have said is all I meant. Yes, there were forced conversions to Islam. I am Bulgarian and have studied in school back there how the Ottoman empire forcefully converted Bulgarians to Islam when they invaded us. It was implied that they tried to convert the whole nation. In later days (after the collapse of comunism in 1989) it was proven that the history books were manipulated to overexaggerate the story (and inciting to patriotism and hatred to Islam and Turkey).In fact, forced conversions happened only in the border regions. That is propaganda in action.

Are you saying that there were no forced conversions to Christianity? I hope you are not.

As I said in previous posts on this thread I doubt the whole conversion story for one simple reason. The unnamed group which performed it does not gain anything, while the only possible benefit is for those seeking to provoke anti-Islamic feelings in the mass population.

[edit on 28-8-2006 by Jgruh4e]

Originally posted by Jgruh4e
......................
As I said in previous posts on this thread I doubt the whole conversion story for one simple reason. The unnamed group which performed it does not gain anything, while the only possible benefit is for those seeking to provoke anti-Islamic feelings in the mass population.

What about all the cases in recent times of people who have been forced to convert to Islam, or have died because they chose not to convert to Islam?... You are saying "it used to happen", are you saying it is not happening anymore? I gave two links which dispute your claim and I am certain I can find several links from many newspapers around the world which will refute any claim that forced conversions to Islam do not happen these days...

Forceful conversions to Islam and honor deaths at the hands of Islamic extremists is nothing new and still happen these days, among some of the other things that happen at the hands of Islamic extremists, even moderate Muslim suffer and die at the hands of radical Muslims if they think the moderates are not following Islam or Sharia law as they should, that is no exageration nor propaganda.


[edit on 28-8-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by dgtempe
There's something "fishy" about this story, anyway. I dont get what benefit this kidnapping group would get by converting two westeners...

hey dg.

We are dealing with idiot terrorists therefore it is no surprise that the rest of the world (us) 'don't get it' when it comes to their actions.

You and I can see that forcing someone to say 'I convert' while under the threat of murder by gunfire is worthless and that they just said that they converted so they could be saved. But the terrorists are idiots. They didn't get what they wanted so they 'saved face' by forcing a 'conversion' and then let them go.

I think the 'conversion' was a way out for the terrorists .. a 'save face' thing ...

The original purpose of the kidnapping was to force America to release all muslim criminals from jails and from GITMO. Of course that wasn't going to happen. Also I believe pressure was put on the terrorists by BIGGER terrorists - Hamas . At least that's what the 'talking heads' said on TV.

Anyways .. dg .. when dealing with motives and actions of terrorists it is no surprise that we don't understand what they do or why they do it. They are morons who want to drag the world back to the year 1000 ... we are more evolved than them and so we don't understand their (lack of) thought process. It's just that simple IMHO.

You have voted Muaddib for the Way Above Top Secret award.
You have used all of your votes for this month.

Excellent quotes and information Muaddib. You are definately helping to educate us all. Thank you.

There is another reason for the conversion of two westerners, Islamic extremists see these forced conversions as victories nomatter how minor they might appear to westerners.

Originally posted by mythatsabigprobe
Well something about this whole event has seemed fishy to me from the start. Now that the hostages have been "forced to convert to Islam".. the fish is getting very stinky indeed.


Do I beleive the right wing media would go as far as fabricating an abduction to prove it's point? Yes, I do.

Thank you very much. So do I.
This whole thing stinks.

Originally posted by Jgruh4e

Do you really not understand what I am saying or are you just pretending trying to spin the conversation in a direction you want? What claim are your links disputing? Please quote me where I have made such a claim.

No, i understand, but it appears that i am not the one trying to spin the conversation in a direction others want... This thread is about forced conversions, not about Palestine or your opinion that Palestinians are fighting for freedom...

Are all Palestinians trying to convert non-Muslims to Islam?....

Originally posted by Jgruh4e
My claim is that this event is used as a propaganda tool by those who want the population to hate Islam. I also explained what propaganda is. Let me try to clarify this for you. What are the Palestinians fighting for? Is it freedom? Or are they trying to convert Israel and USA to Islam? So, I guess your answer is "freedom". So when the average person hears this story he tries to connect the obviously illogical act of forced conversion to Islam with the major Palestinian goal of freedom. This is how this is used as a propaganda tool.

What Palestinians are you talking about? There are Palestinians who have left the region because they don't want anything to do with the fighting between Israel and HAMAS. There are also Israeli people who have left because of the same thing.

BTW, what freedom are you talking about? The right for Israel not to exist?...

Are you claiming that HAMAS and any other Palestinian have the right to want to destroy Israel?

Please don't talk about "propaganda" if you are trying to claim this...

[edit on 28-8-2006 by Muaddib]

Jgruh4e,

Not a very correct remark.Christianity has done that already. As to Judaism, well, you are either a Jew (one of the "Chosen people") or not...
Not really on topic, but did you know that jews and lebanese are both semites? Btw, Solomon married a Lebanese woman, abandoned Judaism and build a temple devoted to Astarte..

You are right it is not on the topic but if you bring this up (why I have ABSOLUTELY no idea) let me correct you:
1- Jews do not force convert that is correct. It is not because Jews are the "chosen people" but because Jews believe that those that want to be Jewish must prove themselves in their faith. Conversion into Judaism is VERY difficult and Rabbis attempt to turn converts away at least 3 times to test their faith.

2- Jews, Lebanese, Palestinians, Kurds, Armenians and Syrians (not only Lebanese) are semites (probably other middle-eastern people as well). This has been proven by genetic tests recently performed.

3- One of Solomon's 700 wives was a woman from ancient Tyre whose father was a king and mother was a probably a Jew.

4- Solomon in his old age started worshipping other 'gods' as well and did not wholely abandon Judaism as you claim.

Just wanted to keep the record straight.


On the forced conversion issue. As I see it the Islamic world turned from a religion of submission to G-D to a religion of egoism of which their way must be imposed on anyone in their midst.

This is why Israel on 'Islamic' soil (as they perceive it) is unbearable. Why forced conversions occur and why democracy is not taken well in the Arab lands.

Originally posted by Muaddib
BTW, what freedom are you talking about? The right for Israel not to exist?...

Are you claiming that HAMAS and any other Palestinian have the right to want to destroy Israel?

Please don't talk about "propaganda" if you are trying to claim this...

[edit on 28-8-2006 by Muaddib]

This post of yours does not really deserve a reply... But anyways, here it goes. I am talking about freedom from Isreali occupation and establishment of a sovereign Palestinian country. As to whether any Palestinian can claim that Israel has no right to exist as a country, please review your history books. Israel was an artificially created state after WW2. Be sure no Palestinians were asked whether they agree with that or not.

Still waiting to show me where I made the claim which you 'disputed' with your links.... Until you do that, I am not willing to waste my words on you.

Originally posted by Jgruh4e
Israel was an artificially created state after WW2.

Israel is a soverign nation that is recognized by the UN and most of the world. "artificially created"?? All countries are created at some point. Lines are drawn at some point. What is YOUR point?

Be sure no Palestinians were asked whether they agree with that or not.

There is no soveringn country of Palestine. 'Palestinians' are people from other countries. Heck ... Arafat was Egyptian. If there is ever a country of Palestine .. it will be 'artificially created' (your words).

Demographics change all the time. Peoples shift. Countries shift. Lines shift. Nothing is set forever. Israel is here today. Today there is no country of Palestine. Tomorrow may see Iraq disapear and be replaced by three 'more ethnically appropriate' countries. So what? Sometime America and Mexico may come together into one country. Things change. They come and they go.

And none of this has to do with 'FORCED CONVERSIONS' ....



[edit on 8/28/2006 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Israel is a soverign nation that is recognized by the UN and most of the world. "artificially created"?? All countries are created at some point. Lines are drawn at some point. What is YOUR point?

My point is that jews from all over the world were invited to settle in this land. This is what I mean by artificially created. It was not created by the natural need of certain people with the same culture to establish a state at the place that they are inhabiting.

There is no soveringn country of Palestine. 'Palestinians' are people from other countries. Heck ... Arafat was Egyptian. If there is ever a country of Palestine .. it will be 'artificially created' (your words).

Ok, let me put it in another way, "Do you think that those people from different countries were asked whether they agree Israel to be established on their soil?"

And none of this has to do with 'FORCED CONVERSIONS' ....

True, but I am not the one who shifted the focus of the thread. If you read my posts you will see that my claims are concerned only with the particular thread topic, which btw is not 'forced conversions', but 'islamic conversion forced on FOX journalists'

Originally posted by Jgruh4e

My point is that jews from all over the world were invited to settle in this land. This is what I mean by artificially created. It was not created by the natural need of certain people with the same culture to establish a state at the place that they are inhabiting.

Err....actually there were Jewish people in the Palestinian region before there was a partition by the UN proposed. In fact during the Brittish mandate Jewish people from other countries were not allowed to settle in Transjordan, while Arabs from any country were accepted to settle in any place of the region of Palestine.

Originally posted by Jgruh4e
Ok, let me put it in another way, "Do you think that those people from different countries were asked whether they agree Israel to be established on their soil?"

It is as much "their soil" as it is the "Israelis soil".... Again...there was never, and even today there is no country officially known as Palestine because they never accepted the partition of the region to the people living in those areas which included Arabs and Jewish people..... Jewish people have been living in that region as long, or longer in some cases, than Arab people....

Originally posted by Jgruh4e

True, but I am not the one who shifted the focus of the thread. If you read my posts you will see that my claims are concerned only with the particular thread topic, which btw is not 'forced conversions', but 'islamic conversion forced on FOX journalists'

So you were not the one to claim this is propaganda to taint world opinion against what you seem to call "the Palestinian struggle against Israel"?....

---edited to correct statement---

[edit on 28-8-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib

Originally posted by Jgruh4e
Still waiting to show me where I made the claim which you 'disputed' with your links.... Until you do that, I am not willing to waste my words on you.

You claim this story is propaganda, and apparently it is because you seem to think that they are trying to stop Palestinians from what you call fighting for their freedom... but the fact is that this story is about a group of people forcefully converting people to Islam...it is not about any of the issues you are trying to bring up...

No, Muaddib, that is the claim I am still waiting for you to show me where I made it:

Originally posted by Muaddib
You are saying "it used to happen", are you saying it is not happening anymore? I gave two links which dispute your claim and I am certain I can find several links from many newspapers around the world which will refute any claim that forced conversions to Islam do not happen these days...

And I am not trying to bring up any issues. It is you who are trying to bring up other issues and to spin the topic. I know you are not gonna post an agreement, but it is enough for everyone to read your posts to see that this is the truth. I simply gave my opinion on the story, which btw is also shared by other members. There was only one time where I was not on topic ( and I said so) and JudahMaccabi was the only one who (rightfully) added to this offtopic comment.

Originally posted by Jgruh4e
My point is that jews from all over the world were invited to settle in this land.

Ahhhhh ... Okay. Gotchya. I wasn't sure what you ment by artificially created.
But let me politiely point out that they weren't 'invited' to settle. Many were forced out of Europe and relocated there with their only other option being the nazi death camps.

It was not created by the natural need of certain people with the same culture to establish a state at the place that they are inhabiting.

It was created by the natural need of certain people with the same culture to establish a state in a NEW place to inhabit because the OLD place (europe) was deadly for them. - Those are the people who came from Europe. However, there were Jews in that region for many hundreds of years ... thousands of years ... before the mass relocation away from the Nazis took place.

Lots of countries started that way. America was 'settled'. Australia too. Canada. Etc. etc. If I use your definition then these were all 'artificially created'. Right? (or am I not understanding you??)

Do you think that those people from different countries were asked whether they agree Israel to be established on their soil?"

Israel wasn't 'their soil'. Arafat came from Egypt. Israel wasn't his soil. It isn't Egyptian soil. It isn't Jordanian. It isn't Syrian.

The world didn't come together to discuss if it wanted European settlers to inhabit the Americas or Australia. It was just a shift of demographics. In the future the demographics will shift again and America will most likely be swallowed up by Mexico. Non-Muslim Europe will disapear and give way to Europe being Muslim and non-white. Demographics shift constantly. White French speaking people will be a minority in France. Shifts happen all the time.

There are MANY muslim homelands. Many. There is just one tiny spit of land that the Jews have to call a homeland. It is a soverign nation that is recognized by the UN and most all of the world. The muslims have MANY places to call home. Considering the birthrates of Muslims and white-Europe ... Muslims will soon call France and other European countries 'Muslim countries' as well.

Jews have one small place to call their own. If Muslims have a right to have all their countries, then Jews have a right to one for themselves.

Heck .. I'd invite them all to live in North Dakota and give it to them if I thought it would take care of the problems in the Middle East. But it wouldn't. Kicking the Jews out of Israel wouldn't do anything except embolden terrorists. They have to hate someone and with the Jews gone they'd just turn on their next vicitms - all us infidels that have to be converted or killed.



[edit on 8/28/2006 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by XphilesPhan


were you aware that muslims themselves believe that Satan himself sneaked passages into the Koran, but of course, were later corrected?

I think they need to correct the entire book

[edit on 27-8-2006 by XphilesPhan]

Please stop spreading lies.

It was not muslims that thought this. There where many different hadeeths written by many different people. Hadeeths where even being compiled over 250 years after Mohammed died. Hadeeths and quran are 2 different things and most hadeeths the majority where proven and are flase while the quran is a completly different book.

People seem to think if soemthing is written in a random un-recognised hadeeth that it automatically is belived or is true.

Shia muslims and even most groups within sunni islam dont follow all hadeeths and have had a system which eliminated the majority of hadeeths and only left authentic hadeeths written by the companians of Mohammed while all other hadeeths which where non-verifyable or where forged where removed or destroyed leaving behind 2 sources in 2 different sets of books the first being the Quran and the second which was a completly different group of books where the Hadeeths.

The Hadeeths that you mentioned where proven false and redundent by every single muslim group and even non-muslim historians that studied history becuase the information cannot be traced to Mohammed becuase the chain of narration within the hadeeths transmission was weak.

So no. The muslims do not belive that satan snuck verses into the Quran.

.