Islamic Conversion Forced on Fox Journalist's for Freedom!

Originally posted by xmotex
Arguing that Islam is somehow "inherently" violent is in essence a call for genocide, or at the very least forced conversion, all protestations of innocence aside.

Not really, as I have stated many times already a large group of Muslim clerics should be setting forth an example by proclaiming the old ways are not to be used anymore. There can be changes in Islamic faith so as to no

Originally posted by xmotex
One can look through Judaic and Christian religious history and texts and cherry pick enough examples to "prove" (especially to those already inclined to believe it) that these faiths also call for violence against "unbelievers" - because they do... this is one thing all the monotheistic faiths have in common.

If you can find a passage where Jesus Christ is said to have taken up a sword and went around raiding caravans, killing people, taken slave women from the raided caravans and beheading people who already had surrendered please post it.

That is the difference, supposedly Jesus came to give an example of how mankind should act, he didn't take up a sword and went raiding caravans, or beheading people. If Mohammed would have been more moderate I am certain there wouldn't be so many Islamic extremists in the world today.

Originally posted by xmotex

As far as "enemies" go - personally I see religious extremists of all sorts in general as "enemies" - as well as other types of fanatic. I don't really give a damn if a political terrorist is Islamic or Maoist... the dead are still just as dead whatever banner they were killed in the name of.

in that we agree, yes, calling for the death of a whole people because of their race, ethnicity, gender or whatever is wrong.

Ok, well, let's take a look at the largest empires in our history since you are so transfixed about empires being a representation of brutality...

Im not transfixed on empires... I was showing the progression of muslim extremism from its begining all the way till modern day. Notice the dates??

No doubt there have been many brutal empires ruled by many other religieons. Those empires built by radical "christans" were empires built by people that were not following the teachings of Jesus.

Originally posted by Heckman
I believe the solution to counter violent Muslims must be based on:

Freedom of religion

Equal rights of all races and religions

Along with the support of governments that promote these things.

Defiantly NOT a war against "radical Islam" because this only causes so called peaceful Muslims to take up arms for their Muslim brothers whom are being attacked (persecuted)

The solution also lies in peaceful Muslims that truly believe in peace...(snip)

Okay, now, see, this I can agree with, 100%.

You are correct, it is going to take a combination of freedom of religion, equal rights, and government support, as well as the peaceful Muslims taking a true stand against militant Islam.

Okay... looks like we're all starting to get on the same page here. Flames are almost out...

Originally posted by Heckman

But your bigoted words demonizing all of Islam reach others who will do even less research than yourself. These people in turn amplify those words of hatred, and commit evil acts against otherwise innocent people. They might not even be Muslim, they might just look like one to an ignorant redneck that doesn't know the difference between an Indian and a Iranian.

You really have a very active imagination.

You have no idea...

Now, all joking aside, I was actually drawing from personal experience. I've told this tale before in greater detail on another thread, but to summarize, shortly after 9/11, a Sikh friend of mine had his convenience store terrorized, and he himself had apparently been dragged out of it and beaten, because some redneck arseheads thought he was one of "them", and they'd been told that the Muslims had declared war on America.

And, while I realize the inherent stereotypes in this story, he was indeed my friend, he did indeed run a convenience store, and he was indeed victimized by a band of rednecks under the impression that he was Muslim (Sikhs, who come from India, also wear a headscarf).

After all that, how do you think he would react to an extremist Muslim who said they were going to get even with the rednecks? What would you do? Me? I'd have to seriously ask myself which scum was worse.

That is the difference, supposedly Jesus came to give an example of how mankind should act, he didn't take up a sword and went raiding caravans, or beheading people.

Well, Jesus talked about peace and love, turning the other cheek etc, and Christians still managed to burn people at the stake and wage murderous wars of conquest in his name... so what was your argument again?

It seems to me that the original principles of a given faith are almost incidental to what people do in the name of that faith. And you've also chosen to put the most damning possible spin on Islamic texts, while ignoring the parts of the Bible (mostly Old Testament admittedly) containing similar exhortations to violence.

Originally posted by xmotex
It seems to me that the original principles of a given faith are almost incidental to what people do in the name of that faith.

Yar. That was kinda the point of my 2-post long story of how religions are made and spread and eventually desecrate themselves.

It's very sad, but yar. S'truth.

After all that, how do you think he would react to an extremist Muslim who said they were going to get even with the rednecks? What would you do? Me? I'd have to seriously ask myself which scum was worse.

One couldnt help but to be angry in such a situation. I agree violence only spawns more hatred.

Well, Jesus talked about peace and love, turning the other cheek etc, and Christians still managed to burn people at the stake and wage murderous wars of conquest in his name... so what was your argument again?

I think his point should be obvious. While corrupt EVIL leaders and followers used Christianity as a tool for waging war once the general populace started to become literate the "church" lost its total control. Once people could read the words of Jesus for themselves things started to change.

And you've also chosen to put the most damning possible spin on Islamic texts, while ignoring the parts of the Bible (mostly Old Testament admittedly) containing similar exhortations to violence.

The reason that most christains discount the teachings of the Old Testament are because of what Jesus said...

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I come to destroy the law of the prophets . I have not come to destroy but to fulfil.

(The law of the prophets is the old testament.)
After that statement he goes on to speak about the changes of law such as..

Matthew 5:43-44

You have heard that is has been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate your enemy. But I say to you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them that despitefully use you, and persecute you.

Sounds way different from crusader christianity or even mainstream "christianity" of today doesnt it.

Its also drasticly different than the Qurans take on simular persecution.

Surah 2
190. Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors. 191. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith. 192 But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful






[edit on 30-8-2006 by Heckman]

Originally posted by xmotex

Well, Jesus talked about peace and love, turning the other cheek etc, and Christians still managed to burn people at the stake and wage murderous wars of conquest in his name... so what was your argument again?

That was the choice of those people, but neither Jesus, nor Buddha, among some other religious figures, Buddhism is not a religion is a way of life but anyways, neither one of them set an example of beheading people, or having slave wives, etc, etc. If they did, I am sure the world would be in a lot more chaos than it is right now, and there would be many more extremists in those religions/ways of life..

Originally posted by xmotex
It seems to me that the original principles of a given faith are almost incidental to what people do in the name of that faith. And you've also chosen to put the most damning possible spin on Islamic texts, while ignoring the parts of the Bible (mostly Old Testament admittedly) containing similar exhortations to violence.

Islam never had a Buddha, or Jesus as a prophet to show the people of the faith not to use the old ways of violence. Muslim moderates make a choice themselves, but not because Mohammed was a peaceful man, but because they have made the choice. Ultimately people are the ones who make a choice as to who and what they are going to be, but if the main prophet of a religion sets a bad example, there will be many more people in that religion who will follow that bad example.

This is why I said "I wish a new, peaceful, Islamic prophet, or a large amount of Islamic clerics would unite and set forth an example and state that the old ways do not belong to this era anymore, those old ways are a thing of the past and people must move forward, instead of being stucked in the 7th century.

[edit on 30-8-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Jamuhn

Originally posted by djohnsto77
I don't think they really converted, they just agreed with whatever the guys that had the guns said.

Anyway, certainly not a hallmark of a peaceful religion.

Neither is the Lord's Resistance Army, but then again, people should be able to differentiate between crazy fringe groups and the main body of religion. By the way, Islam means "submission" not "peace." Muslims don't turn the other cheek when oppressed, they fight against injustice. And as noble as that may sound, it's easy to see how fringe groups can get confused and go to the extreme. It happens with all religions...christianity, jewish, hindus, etc.

umm. i have not recently come across any stories of christians or jews kidnapping people and forcing them to convert to their religions.

obviously these muslims have very little faith in the message of their religion to think many people would convert to it voluntarily.

as for the dimwit arguments that we used to do this. i guess, maybe in the middle ages. but muslims were about in the middle ages too, but they're still doing it now. and btw, this isn't the only recent story of people being compelled to convert to the murderous religion of mohammed.

bomb them back to the stone age? looks like they're still in it. that's the f'ing problem.

i have no time for islamist apolagists. islamism needs to be confronted for what it is. these are not just a few extremists upset by their socio-economic conditions for which we and israel are to blame - we need to address their religious beliefs, which will prove as destructive as communism and fascism did in the last century, and which are all basically the same thing - a belief that individual freedom should be retsrained and that a governing elite with better insight into the truth should run society, and that the governing elite itself can usurp gog or gods because god or gods do not exist. there is only the state (fascism, communism) or the supreme leader (islamism) - it's a bunch of sh*@.

Let me simplify it for everyone and stop this false debate.

We Muslims are not told, allowed, or even suggested to go around killing the "non-believer."

America is the aggressor, who has set up military bases in Muslim land, and props up lousy governments to get cheap oil and maintain it's own agenda in the Mideast.

Therefore, the retaliation of 9/11 and future attacks will justly continue until the American people force their government to withdraw it's military and stop supporting the Zionist government. Until that happens, the American people are just as guilty as the government, and therefore, justified targets.

It is self-defense, not aggression, which is our duty. The war did not begin in America. It started long ago in the Middle East and was brought to America by America's own doing. You stuck your nose where it doesn't belong...now feel the sting.

As Sheikh Bin Laden said regarding the 9/11 attacks on October 1st, 2001:

Thanks to God, he who God guides will never lose. And I believe that there's only one God. And I declare I believe there's no prophet but Mohammed.

This is America, God has sent one of the attacks by God and has attacked one of its best buildings. And this is America filled with fear from the north to south and east to west, thank God.

And what America is facing today is something very little of what we have tasted for decades. Our nation, since nearly 80 years is tasting this humility. Sons are killed, and nobody answers the call.

And when God has guided a bunch of Muslims to be at the forefront and destroyed America, a big destruction, I wish God would lift their position.

And when those people have defended and retaliated to what their brothers and sisters have suffered in Palestine and Lebanon, the whole world has been shouting.

And there are civilians, innocent children being killed every day in Iraq without any guilt, and we never hear anybody. We never hear any fatwah from the clergymen of the government.

And every day we see the Israeli tanks going to Jenin, Ramallah, Beit Jalla and other lands of Islam. And, no, we never hear anybody objecting to that.

So when the swords came after eight years to America, then the whole world has been crying for those criminals who attacked. This is the least which could be said about them. They are people. They supported the murder against the victim, so God has given them back what they deserve.

I say the matter is very clear, so every Muslim after this, and after the officials in America, starting with the head of the infidels, Bush. And they came out with their men and equipment and they even encouraged even countries claiming to be Muslims against us.

So, we run with our religion. They came out to fight Islam with the name of fighting terrorism.

People -- event of the world -- in Japan, hundreds of thousands of people got killed. This is not a war crime. Or in Iraq, what our -- who are being killed in Iraq. This is not a crime. And those, when they were attacked in my Nairobi, and Dar es Salaam, Afghanistan, and Sudan were attacked.

I say these events have split the whole world into two camps: the camp of belief and the disbelief. So every Muslim shall take -- shall support his religion.

And now with the winds of change has blown up now, has come to the Arabian Peninsula.

And to America, I say to it and to its people this: I swear by God the Great, America will never dream nor those who live in America will never taste security and safety unless we feel security and safety in our land and in Palestine.

Source: CNN

[edit on 30-8-2006 by AbuMusaab]

Originally posted by Muaddib


This is why I said "I wish a new, peaceful, Islamic prophet, or a large amount of Islamic clerics would unite and set forth an example and state that the old ways do not belong to this era anymore, those old ways are a thing of the past and people must move forward, instead of being stucked in the 7th century.

[edit on 30-8-2006 by Muaddib]

First of all, there will not be another prophet of God. So forget that.

As for the "large amount of Islamic clerics would unite..." comment, what you really mean is you wish Muslims would just surrender to America, accept the crooked kufr regimes that rule our lands, and be a subservient trading partner to American corporations, while allowing our culture to degrade into the free-for-all sin fest that is the West? Where it is more about what makes someone feel good than following the Law of God?

America will continue to suffer and be humiliated on the world scene until it finally withdraws and decides to live in peace. Which means NO MORE INTERFERENCE. You will buy the oil at whatever price the TRUE owners of the oil decide, and you will not tell us how to govern. The Law of Allah is enough for us.

And just for clarification, the only people who do not see America being humiliated on the world stage are Americans themselves. They are blinded by their own arrogance.

Originally posted by AbuMusaab
..................

Therefore, the retaliation of 9/11 and future attacks will justly continue until the American people force their government to withdraw it's military and stop supporting the Zionist government. Until that happens, the American people are just as guilty as the government, and therefore, justified targets.

Justly attacks?.... you are not a moderate no matter how much you try to hide it... Most of the world is fighting people like yourself who are delluded in believing the attacks on the west are just....

Chirac, one of the world leaders that was against the war on terror, mostly because of their dealings with the Iraqi regime, has said that France will respond with nuclear weapons to any terrorist attacks in France...

I am sorry to tell you that if another attack, anywhere happens, Muslim people will suffer, the good and the bad together.

Originally posted by AbuMusaab
It is self-defense, not aggression, which is our duty.

Self defense huh? the same as what happened in Sudan?.... Stop hiding your true intentions, at least be a man and state what you really think.

Originally posted by AbuMusaab
The war did not begin in America. It started long ago in the Middle East and was brought to America by America's own doing. You stuck your nose where it doesn't belong...now feel the sting.

It did not, it began in the 6th century when the newly converted Muslims decided to follow Mohammeds wish of spreading Islam throughout the world, by force if people would not accept it. It is the same thing that Islamic extremists are doing nowadays.

Originally posted by AbuMusaab
As Sheikh Bin Laden said regarding the 9/11 attacks on October 1st, 2001:

You can claim all you want that it is just, and you can claim like Osama Bin Laden that you want to get back the lands of al-andalucia (Spain) and every other land which Islamic extremists took by force and lost centuries ago, and you can claim that it is your right. The fact is that sooner or later the world will wake up, and they won't allow any other genocide like the one in Sudan, where your friends killed over 2.5 million people. I guess they were guilty too according to you huh?...

That's without counting the other cases in other countries, many of which have nothing to do with the west, where Islamic extremists are trying to spread their delluded views around the world and are causing genocide and terrorist attacks...

You know what? I hope you actually find a way to embrace peace, because if you don't a lot of Muslim people will suffer, unfortunately including the good Muslims who will never accept your delluded views...

[edit on 30-8-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by AbuMusaab

First of all, there will not be another prophet of God. So forget that.

Then if people like yourself don't change I feel for the good Muslims that will pay for your desire to destroy the west.

Originally posted by AbuMusaab Where it is more about what makes someone feel good than following the Law of God?

i see...you mean install Sharia law where little girls at 5 years old get their clitoris mutilated as their fathers tells them while they mutilate their own child they own the girls and can do whatever they want with them?... including burning them alive if she does anything the father disaproves of?....

Installing the same Laws where man can own women and do whatever they want with them?....

The same laws where a man can claim that his wife/slave was unfaithful if he "thinks" she looked upon another man in lust, even if she didn't, and he can ask for her to be executed in the public plaza?...

Or bothers and fathers can murder daughters/sisters to restore honor to the family because she decides to be free?.... among some of the other things you must think Allah wants you to do...

Thanks but no thanks....

Originally posted by AbuMusaab
Which means NO MORE INTERFERENCE. You will buy the oil at whatever price the TRUE owners of the oil decide, and you will not tell us how to govern. The Law of Allah is enough for us.

And what kind of "interference" did the innocent people of Sudan inflict upon your extremist views for your friends to have killed over 2.5 millions and displaced many more?.....

What kind of "interference" have people in poor nations done that Islamic extremists have to kidnap them and forcefully convert them to Islam or they get killed in the process?....

Originally posted by AbuMusaab
And just for clarification, the only people who do not see America being humiliated on the world stage are Americans themselves. They are blinded by their own arrogance.

Arrogance comes from claiming the west is the cause for your extremist views when people like yourself have existed even before the west as we know it today existed....

Because of your delluded views more people have died in Sudan alone than in all wars waged by all the countries in the west put together after WWII.... and that's without counting the other atrocities your extremist views have brought to the world.

[edit on 30-8-2006 by Muaddib]

Party over kids.

This is not a thread for discussion of parallels and differences between religions nor the justification for previous attacks.

Get back on topic.