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Women's Rights in Iraq

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posted on Aug, 27 2006 @ 12:00 PM
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If you are concerned about the rights of women all over the world, this should be of particular interest. Especially if you are also for us pulling out of Iraq.


Lawyers Killed in Iraq for Defending Women's Rights

8/21/2006 - Since October 2005, some 38 lawyers in Iraq have been killed, many of whom were defending women's rights. IRIN News, a United Nations humanitarian news and information service, reports that at least 120 lawyers have fled to surrounding countries since January because of the threats to their safety.

Lawyers at special risk for death threats and murder are those who take cases involving violations of Islamic law, such as adultery, so-called honor killings, and cases of women asking for custody of their children. In July, Iraqi lawyer Salah Abdel-Kader was found murdered in his office with a note that read, “This is the price to pay for those who do not follow Islamic laws and defend what is dreadful and dirty,” according to IRIN. He frequently took on cases involving custody disputes and honor killings.

The threat of violence has had a chilling effect on lawyers willing to take these cases. “We are afraid and terrified by such killings, and many of my colleagues have stopped accepting such cases — even if it could bring good money — because our lives could be in serious risk,” said Iraqi lawyer Qusay Ahmed, according to IRIN News. www.feminist.org...


Now what do you think is going to happen if you all get your most fond wish and the United States cuts and runs? Are not these people deserving of basic human rights?

Semper




posted on Aug, 27 2006 @ 12:30 PM
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I am concerned about women's rights, as I am about the basic human rights of all people. However, I'm not convinced that we are the ones who have the right to see that everyone gets the rights that they deserve. We are not the world rights police.

And by your article there, it doesn't sound as of our presence in Iraq is doing too much good. The case that we should stay in Iraq would be bolstered if you could indicate that we're making a positive difference.

Iraq is an Islamic nation. Their laws are intertwined with their religion. For us to go in there and try to make them behave differently isn't helping.



posted on Aug, 27 2006 @ 12:33 PM
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Yet BH, I can not but help to feel dismayed at the plight of all oppressed peoples everywhere.

We have come a long way here in the United States and still we have miles to go before we sleep. How can we turn away from our fellow earthlings in a plight so very near and dear to our hearts?

Religious dogma aside, there is the matter of right and wrong. Someone eventually always has to stand up and say "ENOUGH, I Stand in Your Way."

Semper



posted on Aug, 27 2006 @ 12:40 PM
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Originally posted by semperfortis
Someone eventually always has to stand up and say "ENOUGH, I Stand in Your Way."


I agree. I'm just not convinced that 'someone' should be us. I rather think the people of a nation have to stand up and say "Enough!" That way, they'll be more likely to appreciate their 'democracy' or whatever they end up with.

I also feel badly about people of the world. And I hold them able to rise up and do something about it as many other nations have. As our nation has.


Don't get me wrong, I think we should help those who ask for it, but invading a sovereign nation is the wrong way to go about fixing the world.



[edit on 27-8-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on Aug, 27 2006 @ 12:45 PM
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OK,

If I concede that point, we are there now. Too late to turn back history. Are we not now obligated to act where others have shown they will not?

We are in it up to our necks, so do we just cut and run, look the other way, or stand for our principles?

Semper



posted on Aug, 27 2006 @ 12:58 PM
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Hon, you surely know that we disagree dramatically as to what we're doing there. You think we're there fighting terrorism and spreading democracy and I think that's a crock of poo-poo. So I don't see how I can answer your latest questions.

My answer (which probably wouldn't make any sense in relation to your questions) is that we should get out of there and let the people get back to living their lives how they see fit. We should pull out and take away the reason for the insurgency to be there in the first place. We should let Iraqis run their country.



posted on Aug, 27 2006 @ 01:02 PM
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First off, I'm not interested in offending anyone.

It doesn't matter if you may think that the way they treat their women is 'barbaric' or 'primative'. The fact is, it is a way of life. It is THEIR way of life.
Every society has their own ideas of rights.

You think that the society has no right to treat the women the way they do.
I think you have no right in interfering.
Quite the conundrum.

Would you like it if another nation came to your doorstep and told you to change your entire way of life, even though it may be better than your current?

If one was to tell you that "Anarchy is the only way to empower your own rights." Would you listen?

Maybe it is better to help those worse off in OUR own society (prostitutes, homeless, single parent etc) before we try to change the entire perspective of anothers.



posted on Aug, 27 2006 @ 01:11 PM
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BH,

I understand your sentiment and I appreciate your passion for the topic on the war in Iraq.

As always I also value your input. As you know however, I disagree...


As for the other poster, I have absolutely no response for rationalizations such as that. I seem to not be able to fully comprehend your assessment in relation to your comparison.

Semper



posted on Aug, 27 2006 @ 01:51 PM
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Well Is very clear that the article shows what happens when religious ideologies are force fed in a nation that is not ready to take them yet.

You can not bring, democracy, new religious views and human rights to expect that they will be embraced by a different culture than our own.

What it may be perceive as a natural way of things for us is a struggle for others.

I am amazed how our nation seems to worry so much about these things in Iraq while in other nations human rights violation are happening every day and they are completely forgotten while thousand die from that forgetfulness.

Africa ring a bell?



posted on Aug, 27 2006 @ 06:28 PM
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Does bringing up other examples of the same atrocities make those occurring in Iraq seem less important?

Is the fact that abuses are happening to women in other nations, on other continents, make those atrocities easier on the Iraqi women?

Are you all so negative about the war in Iraq, that the plight of women being stoned to death, beheaded or beaten to death mean nothing to you!

How does bringing up other examples of things that need to be addressed also, help the women of Iraq? How does it help the Lawyers that are trying to make a difference?

Semper



posted on Aug, 27 2006 @ 07:04 PM
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Originally posted by semperfortis

Are you all so negative about the war in Iraq, that the plight of women being stoned to death, beheaded or beaten to death mean nothing to you!

Semper


Why are you so obsessed with bringing Iraq while forgetting that nations like Africa has been forgotten for the last 10 years during which human rights violations against women and overall citizens has killed millions?

Why are you so intent on Iraq alone? if you want to talk about atrocities and violations of human rights and the targeting of women you have to step off the Iraqi propaganda path an embrace all.


It seems that you are very well and intended into been selective.

After all US Is in Iraq and can not even take care of the country that it liberated and force fed democracy into.



posted on Aug, 27 2006 @ 07:11 PM
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Originally posted by semperfortis
Does bringing up other examples of the same atrocities make those occurring in Iraq seem less important?


No more than being concerned with our own country and it's people means that we're apathetic about women in Iraq. The accusation that because we have concern for ourselves means that these atrocities must mean nothing to us is an ineffective and logically twisted debate technique.




Are you all so negative about the war in Iraq, that the plight of women being stoned to death, beheaded or beaten to death mean nothing to you!


No. My negative feelings about the war in Iraq are in no way related to women being stoned, beheaded or beaten. They have nothing to do with each other. I would feel the same about the Iraq war if every Iraqi woman was respected, loved and treated like a princess.



How does bringing up other examples of things that need to be addressed also, help the women of Iraq?


How does accusing us of apathy help them? Especially when I think you know better.

Bringing up other examples pulls the view backward and allows us to see a more complete picture. There are women (and men) suffering worse than in Iraq. And many of those we could actually do something about. But our money is being tossed down a sink hole that is this insane War on Iraq.

And we're NOT being successful. We're NOT keeping women from being stoned, abused, beaten and killed. We're not helping and we could help elsewhere. That's why people bring up atrocities elsewhere.

The real atrocity is that we're not helping where we could actually make a difference...



posted on Aug, 27 2006 @ 09:50 PM
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Why are you so obsessed with bringing Iraq while forgetting that nations like Africa has been forgotten for the last 10 years during which human rights violations against women and overall citizens has killed millions?


AGAIN! How does this help the women in Iraq? Are the less relevant than the women in Africa? Or does it just appear that way.


And we're NOT being successful. We're NOT keeping women from being stoned, abused, beaten and killed. We're not helping and we could help elsewhere. That's why people bring up atrocities elsewhere.


Actually if you have followed this, you know that there were NO, repeat NO lawyers standing up for women's rights during the Saddam regime. They are now there because they now have a democracy. So we are helping, but you wont see this. You have a vehement opposition to this war and no matter what progress is made, those that feel that way will never "see" past that kind of prejudice.

BH I really respect your opinion, but your mind is made up on this and thus closed to any independent variable proposed by myself or others that are trying to fathom what is really going on.

Semper



posted on Aug, 27 2006 @ 09:58 PM
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Well BH I respectfully disagree with your last argument. I think we are making a difference in Iraq. Certainly there are some segments of Iraqi society that do not want us there and are committing violent acts against some of the people in Iraq that do. However, that in no way means we are failing. About the only things in Iraq that ever make the news are acts of violence, but other, good things, are also happening on a daily basis. Progress is slower that I and most other people would like and it is costing dearly, but progress is being made.



posted on Aug, 28 2006 @ 03:35 PM
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Semper you always look to pat yourself on the back and you act as though you know the Mid-East when you don't know at all. You should really read up on what Iraq was like pre-invasion, because Iraq was one of the more progressive countries in the ME and it was only AFTER our invasion did they revert back to the antiquated laws of years past. I don't know what propaganda websites you are using as sources but either you are purposefully misdirecting people or you are just plain ignorant to the fact about certain things Middle Eastern. I really hope most people do not pay attention to your suppositions because your propganda is really so blatantly inaccurate and so easy to disprove its pitiful.

Women in Iraq were doctors, nurses, teachers, went to school, drove cars, wore western clothes and were able to do a lot more then most countires over there including our own Allies who make our servicewomen wear hijabs outside of the bases. Christian women also never had to wear head scarves.It was a dictatorship and not a muslim law dictatorship. They had good schools, good hospitals and advancing technologies. You have an agenda to fill which is mostly anti-muslim anti-arab so I guess you can't help yourself. Why else would you brag about being Israeli trained as though it was a good thing? As though israelis understand Middle Eastern ways other then just sacrificing them.

Here is what one woman in Iraq has to say about things in Iraq:




Summer of Goodbyes...

Residents of Baghdad are systematically being pushed out of the city. Some families are waking up to find a Klashnikov bullet and a letter in an envelope with the words “Leave your area or else.” The culprits behind these attacks and threats are Sadr’s followers- Mahdi Army. It’s general knowledge, although no one dares say it out loud. In the last month we’ve had two different families staying with us in our house, after having to leave their neighborhoods due to death threats and attacks. It’s not just Sunnis- it’s Shia, Arabs, Kurds- most of the middle-class areas are being targeted by militias.

Other areas are being overrun by armed Islamists. The Americans have absolutely no control in these areas. Or maybe they simply don’t want to control the areas because when there’s a clash between Sadr’s militia and another militia in a residential neighborhood, they surround the area and watch things happen.

Since the beginning of July, the men in our area have been patrolling the streets. Some of them patrol the rooftops and others sit quietly by the homemade road blocks we have on the major roads leading into the area. You cannot in any way rely on Americans or the government. You can only hope your family and friends will remain alive- not safe, not secure- just alive. That’s good enough.

For me, June marked the first month I don’t dare leave the house without a hijab, or headscarf. I don’t wear a hijab usually, but it’s no longer possible to drive around Baghdad without one. It’s just not a good idea. (Take note that when I say ‘drive’ I actually mean ‘sit in the back seat of the car’- I haven’t driven for the longest time.) Going around bare-headed in a car or in the street also puts the family members with you in danger. You risk hearing something you don’t want to hear and then the father or the brother or cousin or uncle can’t just sit by and let it happen. I haven’t driven for the longest time. If you’re a female, you risk being attacked.

I look at my older clothes- the jeans and t-shirts and colorful skirts- and it’s like I’m studying a wardrobe from another country, another lifetime. There was a time, a couple of years ago, when you could more or less wear what you wanted if you weren’t going to a public place. If you were going to a friends or relatives house, you could wear trousers and a shirt, or jeans, something you wouldn’t ordinarily wear. We don’t do that anymore because there’s always that risk of getting stopped in the car and checked by one militia or another.

There are no laws that say we have to wear a hijab (yet), but there are the men in head-to-toe black and the turbans, the extremists and fanatics who were liberated by the occupation, and at some point, you tire of the defiance. You no longer want to be seen. I feel like the black or white scarf I fling haphazardly on my head as I walk out the door makes me invisible to a certain degree- it’s easier to blend in with the masses shrouded in black. If you’re a female, you don’t want the attention- you don’t want it from Iraqi police, you don’t want it from the black-clad militia man, you don’t want it from the American soldier. You don’t want to be noticed or seen.

I have nothing against the hijab, of course, as long as it is being worn by choice. Many of my relatives and friends wear a headscarf. Most of them began wearing it after the war. It started out as a way to avoid trouble and undue attention, and now they just keep it on because it makes no sense to take it off. What is happening to the country?


Source


Here is another one:



People who live in the mentioned districts claim that unknown groups have distributed leaflets (often handwritten), warning residents of several practices, ranging from instructions on dress codes to the prohibition of selling or dealing with certain goods.

The instructions vary between neighbourhoods. Amiriya and Ghazaliya have the full menu, while others stress only 2 or more of them. So far, enforcing the hijab for women and a ban on shorts for men are consistent in most districts of western Baghdad. In other areas, women are not allowed to drive, to go out without a chaperone, and to use cell phones in public; men are not allowed to dress in jeans, shave their beards, wear goatees, put styling hair gel, or to wear necklaces; it is forbidden to sell ice, to sell cigarettes at street stands, to sell Iranian merchandise, to sell newspapers, and to sell ring tones, CDs, and DVDs. Butchers are not allowed to slaughter during certain religious anniversaries. Municipality workers will be killed if they try to collect garbage from certain areas. Private neighbourhood generators are banned in a few areas. And the last I heard is that they are threatening Internet cafés and wireless providers.

As a result, the remaining Iraqi women who haven’t yet covered their heads are now buying veils and more moderate dress. My sister now covers her head when she goes out to college, as do most of my female relatives. Trousers and short skirts have long been abandoned. Guys are now either wearing Bermuda shorts that cover their knees or just plain trousers. Me? I have insisted so far to keep my hairy legs exposed.

Source


Another,Another one,some more, And Another



posted on Aug, 28 2006 @ 04:05 PM
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The difference is pie, I have been to the middle east on more than one occasion and not as you would describe a Murdering Marine, as I am sure you are negative about them as well.

I have been there and done that, so pat myself on the back or not, at least I have the experience and have lived the life; and not just developed calluses on my fingers from complaining and derailing threads.

Semper



posted on Aug, 28 2006 @ 04:20 PM
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Originally posted by semperfortis
The difference is pie, I have been to the middle east on more than one occasion and not as you would describe a Murdering Marine, as I am sure you are negative about them as well.

I have been there and done that, so pat myself on the back or not, at least I have the experience and have lived the life; and not just developed calluses on my fingers from complaining and derailing threads.

Semper


Derailing a thread just because I posted sources that contradict what you say? You are trying to make it appear as though there were no rights before America went there when its really they had more rights before we went there and these lawyers are something that is a recent necessity. Its not a derailment its a counter response. I guess you would think of it as derailed because your post was pretty much uncovered for what it is. Pure Propaganda.

Just because you have been to the ME in a Military capacity does not mean you know the people or the area.
As far as murdering marines go, well I guess one could be if they kill people just because of their race or religion and not because they are enemies. This has been shown to happen quite a bit recently and its not something thats occurred a lot in the past.



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