Plane crash in Kentucky

This is all so sad.

Something Snafu wrote made me think of human error involved in takeoffs and landings.

Originally posted by snafu7700
i think the pilots were in a hurry, saw runway 26, assumed it was the right one and departed on it. however, this is just MHO based on the facts we have right now.

These things happen.
I posted this link in another thread, but I'll post it here. It deals with landing at wrong airports.
www.thirdamendment.com...





[edit on 27-8-2006 by desert]

I've noticed their are several pilots in this thread. I understand night time operations are difficult, but don't you have to check heading?
I'm only asking because I want to know, no speculation to anything else.

Lack of crew coordination (when one pilot sees something but is too scared to say anything about it for some reason, whatever it may be) has caused more accidents than just about anything else. The most famous one is Tenerife where two 747s collided on the runway. The first officer of the KLM flight heard the tower say hold for the Pan Am on the runway, but the captain (the KLM training head) pushed the throttles up to take off. The first officer was intimidated and didn't say anything and they ran into the Pan Am 747, killing over 500 people.

It's POSSIBLE that they were in a rush for some reason, and didn't even notice the sign showing it was runway 26, lined up and took off without double checking. It may be that one pilot noticed and didn't say anything, or it may be that neither noticed anything wrong.

Originally posted by asala
FAA have said there are significent amount of deaths,

the Flight was bound for Atlanta,

I wonder what could have happened?

My thoughts go out to the familys of all these people right now,

My thoughts also go out to the families of those people.

We didn't need another tragedy, but that is life.

i am sorry for the affected families. may god help them through their heartache.

i have a few questions though.

how does a pilot who had some experience line up on such a runway ?
would he have known the airport had two runways, one being 3500 feet and one being 7000 feet? that is a huge difference.
wouldnt he have simply known by the fact the runway he was on wasnt lit, that he was on the wrong runway?
wouldnt he have noticed the long , lit up , 7000 foot runway off to the side, and shouldnt this have told him something wasnt right?
how familiar was he with the airport in question?
i just cant see someone rushing their job when the lives of 50 people are at stake. you cant put a price tag on how valuable one life is , let alone 50.



[edit on 27-8-2006 by elitegamer23]

It depends on a lot of things. Was this their last flight and they were heading off duty after it? Were they stressed out about things going on in their lives? Did they line up on the runway, push the throttles up and take off, or did they line up, stop and wait for clearance? There are probably 20 or 30 more questions to ask before we can know anything. Pilots are human too. They make mistakes just like the rest of us do.

everyone is human elite, and therefore everyone is prone to mistakes....even the most highly trained people. however, flying is still the safest mode of travel known to man. i think we loose something like a couple of hundred thousand people on highways each year compared to an average of less than one hundred in aircraft accidents. this is a horrible incident, but i would still get on a comair flight tomorrow.

# Jon Hooker, 27, of London, Ky. Former University of Kentucky pitcher who was married in Lexington on Saturday night.
# Scarlett Parsley, 23, of London Ky. Married Hooker in ceremony on Saturday night.
# Capt. Jeffrey Adam Clay of Burlington, Ky., hired by Comair in November 1999. (Pilot)
# Kelly J. Heyer, 27, of Cincinnati. Flight attendant who had been working for the airline since 2004.
# Brian Byrd, Richmond
# Judy Rains, Richmond
# Cecile Moscoe
# Mike Finley, 52, prominent London businessman who owned and operated Finley's Fun Centers - roller skating rinks - in London, Somerset and Danville. He also was a partner in Sweet Hollow Golf Course in Corbin. Finley was on his way to a roller skating association meeting in Nevada, according to his son, David Taylor.
# Charles Lykins of Naples, Florida
# Larry Turner, of Lexington, Ky., associate Dean for University of Kentucky Extension and Director of Cooperative Extension Service.
# Carole Bizzack of Lexington, wife of former Lexington police officer John Bizzack
# Pat Smith, a member of Habitat for Humanity International's board of directors, according to Habitat for Humanity.
# Diane and Homer Combs, Lexington, partner of Systems Design Group in Lexington
# Fenton Dawson, Lexington, worked for ACS in governmental solutions department, on his way to a Washington, D.C., seminar.
# Dan Mallory, 55, ran Meadow Haven Farm, a thoroughbred operation in Bourbon County.
# Leslie and Kay Craig Morris, Lexington. The couple were on their way to an Alaskan cruise. Leslie Morris is a recently retired partner at Stoll, Keenon and Ogden. Perry Bentley, a partner in the law firm, called Morris "one of the foremost and most respected lawyers around." Another law firm partner, David Smith, called Morris "just a consummate lawyer ... a true old-style trial lawyer." Both colleagues said that Morris' trademark was his humor. Smith said Morris had "an extraordinary wit, irrepressible good humor."
# Pat Smith, Lexington, worked for Lexington's Habitat for Humanity, was 2004 Humanities National Volunteer of the Year.
# George Brunacini, an Albuquerque businessman who owned the Bona Terra Horse Farm in Georgetown
# Jeff Williams
# Marcie Thomason, 25, Washington, D.C., native Lexingtonian.
# Betty Young, wife of Dick Young, the uncle of W.T. Young Jr., Lexington .



Here is a partial list of passengers.

seems like a very prominent list of people. the ticket price on this plane must have been higher then normal comercial flights.

what do i know though really.

Originally posted by roadgravel
As Snafu speculated, CNN and the NTSB are stating that the aircraft did attempt to take off on the wrong runway. one that was 3500 ft vs the correct one which was 7000 ft long.
Some type of human error, what a sad happening.

There is a post on ATSNN where I put some other websites, but the gist of this accident, from what I have heard is that the plane took off from a runway that was too short fot the plane. It is the ground controllers job at airports to make sure every plane is where it should be at any airport.

I know it is still early in the investigation of this accident, but if they were told to go to the wrong runway ...

Air Traffic Controllers

Once the plane has landed, a ground controller in the tower directs it along the taxiways to its assigned gate. The ground controller usually works entirely by sight, but may use radar if visibility is very poor.

The procedure is reversed for departures. The ground controller directs the plane to the proper runway. The local controller then informs the pilot about conditions at the airport, such as weather, speed and direction of wind, and visibility. The local controller also issues runway clearance for the pilot to take off. Once in the air, the plane is guided out of the airport’s airspace by the departure controller.

If the plane did take off from the wrong runway, I believe the blame will land on the lap of the ground controller at the airport.

[edit on 27/8/06 by Keyhole]

From the initial NTSB statement, it seems the tower cleared him to takeoff on runway 22 but the pilot made a wrong turn and took off from runway 26. Sounds like pure pilot error to me. There was only one controller in the tower, he could have been looking at something else for just a minute while this happened and didn't have time to tell the pilot he was on the wrong runway until it was too late.

Originally posted by Keyhole

If the plane did take off from the wrong runway, I believe the blame will land on the lap of the ground controller at the airport.

youre both right and wrong. during the time of this incident, there was only one controller in the tower, which is a normal procedure for midnight shifts. he was working all positions: local, ground, and data. if he cleared them to runway 26 then he is partially at fault. but i'll bet you a weeks salary that he cleared them to runway 22. wait for the tapes. it will sound something like this:

"comair 5191, taxi to runway 22, cross runway 26."

"roger, taxi to runway 22, cross runway 26."

"tower, comair 5191 ready for departure."

"roger, comair 5191 runway 22, wind two five zero at 5, cleared for takeoff."

"roger, cleared for takeoff."

probably not exactly that, but pretty darn close. again, i think the pilot was in a hurry, saw runway 26, didnt take the time to verify where he was, and departed. the controller, being the only guy in the tower at the time, probably read the clearance and went on to other duties. now, he is supposed to keep his eyes out the windows at all times, and will probably be partially at fault for not catching the pilots mistake (and i wouldnt want to be the guy to have to live with the knowledge that i could have saved the day), but in the end, the pilot has sole responsibility for the safety of the aircraft, as per federal aviation regulations. unless there is a mitigating circumstance that they arent reporting, its a pretty clear cut case of pilot error.

edit to correct callsign.

[edit on 28-8-2006 by snafu7700]

Yup. This is a clearcut case of egregious pilot error. At every intersection (where taxiways and runways or crossing runways meet) there are large red signs telling a pilot what runway they are entering. These pilots would have seen "8 - 26" instead of the "4 - 22" they were cleared for. In addition, one of the pre-takeoff checklist items is to verify that the heading indicator agrees with the magnetic compass (and GPS system if one is on board). In these aircraft both pilots would have had to have done this. Obviously it should have alerted them that something was wrong when they were seeing 260 on the heading indicator but were cleared for takeoff on 22 (220 heading).

something i didnt notice mentioned in this thread and i have yet to notice it in the news is the fact that the lexington airport was shut down two weeks ago so the runways could be repaved and extended. Im not sure that this is a factor but when they did repaving every thing had to be moved around so its possible things where mismarked or the pilots heard of the runway expansion and assumed it was the one they where on. Lexington airport is a pretty small airport and those of us who live around it try to avoid it if that tells you anything. We usually drive to louisville or cincinati if we fly. Again thats just my opinion.

Several other factors have also been determined in the crash.

1. The first officer who survived was actually flying the plane when it crashed.
2. Bluegrass International Airport's traffic pattern was changed due to construction as in repaving the main runway as to where the pilot thought they were on the right runway.
3. Lights from the construction equipment also may have affected the flight crews judgement as to what runway they where actually on.
4. There was only one controller in the tower at the time the plane started to takeoff.
5. The length of the runway

Sounds like they have arrived at a concensus...

FAA acknowledges it violated staffing policies with only one air traffic controller on duty at airport when Comair jet crashed Sunday, killing 49 people.

from CNN

so even though it is normal to have only one staffer in the tower, it is against the rules?

If the aircraft left the runway without sufficient airspeed, it could still remain airborne without stalling. The pilot aware of this situation, would normally lower the angle of attack of the wing and build up sufficient airspeed to the point were aispeed exceeds stall speed. This proceedure works.
This was not an accident. I believe we are whitnessing another coverup.

A short field take off requires a different set up than a normal take off. If the pilot thought he was on the proper, longer runway, he wouldn't have had the proper set up and therefore wouldn't have been able to get aloft in time. Also, if there were trees at the end of the runway, gaining speed within the ground effect wouldn't have done any good.

Pilot error happens, sadly, and to think that this is some sort of cover up is just inane. Cover up of what, anyway?

Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
so even though it is normal to have only one staffer in the tower, it is against the rules?

that is a question that everyone should be asking faa management (specifically, the administrator, marion blakely). they have been reducing staffing levels across the board, sometimes illegally in an attempt to reduce costs, and have gotten away with it. the national air traffic controllers union (natca) has been screaming bloody murder about staffing levels for quite awhile now, but because of the contract negotiations that were taking place over the last year, the administrator has been able to pass our complaints off as bargaining tactics. this isnt just a lexington kentucky issue, this is a national issue.

however, even if the controller is faulted for not catching the pilot's mistake, the pilot is still the sole person responsible for the safety of the aircraft and the lives therein.

[edit on 29-8-2006 by snafu7700]

Originally posted by flycatch
If the aircraft left the runway without sufficient airspeed, it could still remain airborne without stalling. The pilot aware of this situation, would normally lower the angle of attack of the wing and build up sufficient airspeed to the point were aispeed exceeds stall speed. This proceedure works.
This was not an accident. I believe we are whitnessing another coverup.

Decreasing the angle of attack of the wing would generally mean that climb rate would also decrease. I believe they are saying now that the plane possibly clipped the perimeter fence and some trees which would certainly hinder climbing.