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POTS, Parting on the Square

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posted on Aug, 26 2006 @ 07:56 PM
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Originally posted by TamahuAgreed.

To make the Rough Ashlar, Perfect, is the main theme of completing the first Two Mountains of the Path.


I do not know what the first Two Mountains of the Path means, perhaps, if the thread author is in agreement you could explain this in greater detail?


Originally posted by TamahuFor one to have even set foot on the First Mountain is something extraordinary.


If you mean to say embarking on the spiritual journey of self-discovery then yes, it is quite remarkable.


Originally posted by TamahuAnd I'm certainly not exempt from being classified as a "scoundrel of the intellect".


This is an area we all seek improvement in, no? To make perfect the imperfect?


Originally posted by TamahuHowever, from the extremely myopic responses we usually get from Masons; it is obvious that many of them are not even trying, or are not willing to learn.


Why do you feel resentment?


Originally posted by TamahuEither that, or many Masons(not all of course) are purposefully trying to hide things that really ought to be elaborated on for the masses of this suffering humanity.


Why do you believe that the method of elaboration, some currently employ is not helping to alleviate the suffering in the world?


Originally posted by TamahuIt would just be nice if instead of getting smart-aleck or cynical and skeptical remarks most of the time, if certain Masonic Brothers would open their minds every once in a while.


So getting mad helps you help them see the logic of your rationale in what way?

I've read a few of your posts and believe you have the philosophic foundation for knowing the answers to all your questions, but suffer from a degree of short-sightedness yourself.


Originally posted by TamahuSome Masons have admitted that this kind of thing has become a problem in recent years.


So then why does it bother you so?


Originally posted by Tamahu As in a "Pearl of Great Price"?


Its clear you know how to google, but do you know how to learn to see?




Kindest regards, friend.


edit: diction

[edit on 26-8-2006 by lucum per lucerna]




posted on Aug, 27 2006 @ 12:45 AM
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Originally posted by Tamahu
Your myopic response is what made me think you hadn't


There is a distinct difference between myopia and being 'to the point'.



The "simple answer" was already provided.

Perhaps I was just trying to add-on to the build.

What issue could one possibly have with that?


The answer I provided addressed the original poster's question succintly, directly... and happened to be true.

Yours was too complicated, philosophical, and *not necessarily true*.

There is a problem within and without masonry of over-complication. Let's pretend that the original poster had asked 'Do masons molest children?' Someone answers it correctly and simply with 'No.' Next, some other person comes along and waxes philosophical: 'Any man that walks this earth does bad deeds at some point in his life, and any bad deed harms and warps every other fellow man, so therefore yes... masons do indeed molest children.'

Is the example ludicrous? Perhaps. Is the logic sound? Arguable. Does it achieve something? Yes, it takes some reader, who would have been satisfied by the simple and correct answer, and gets him thinking something else that is just not the case. Or worse, he sees the logic as convoluted and assumes it is a coverup of some dasterly deed.

I'm not saying that what you posted is false. It happens to be false *for me*, and would be false for most masons. I'm not saying that no mason would wax philosophical and come to the same conclusion as you... some would. But, as a society, the 'meaning' you provided does not exist for 'the square'... so you are doing the original poster a disservice.



posted on Aug, 27 2006 @ 03:48 PM
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Originally posted by lucum per lucerna
I do not know what the first Two Mountains of the Path means, perhaps, if the thread author is in agreement you could explain this in greater detail?




See Samael Aun Weor's "The Three Mountains".




This is an area we all seek improvement in, no? To make perfect the imperfect?




True indeed.




Why do you feel resentment?



It has not so much to do with resentment, but with people(not just me) having to put up with smart-aleck remarks and cynical-skepticism when they ask questions or present a topic for discussion.

Perhaps there is an ego I have within related to 'resentment'(in fact I'm sure there is).

But this doesn't change the fact that many Masons, here and abroad, are either lying a lot, or are simply not even studying.




Why do you believe that the method of elaboration, some currently employ is not helping to alleviate the suffering in the world?



Because when a question is not answered, or is only answered with the most outer exoteric 'blind', it doesn't do many much good.

Perhaps some aren't ready for esoteric knowledge, but this is the Age of Aquarius; and the old, retardant and exoteric Piscean views need to be discarded(or integrated rather) so that everyone can 'Eat of the Tree of Life'; as to my learning, humanity is at a stage of evolution in which they should be ready for such knowledge.



So getting mad helps you help them see the logic of your rationale in what way?

I've read a few of your posts and believe you have the philosophic foundation for knowing the answers to all your questions, but suffer from a degree of short-sightedness yourself.




Well I don't know how one can know whether or not someone is "mad" just from reading their posts on the internet.

I'm simply being serious, and am making an honest effort to present knowledge I've aquired that many are unaware of.

And of course I'm not All-Enlightened, or even close to it.

Does this mean one should not share what they've learned?





Originally posted by TamahuSome Masons have admitted that this kind of thing has become a problem in recent years.


So then why does it bother you so?




Well it has already been explained why it "bothers" me.





Originally posted by Tamahu As in a "Pearl of Great Price"?


Its clear you know how to google, but do you know how to learn to see?




FYI, I didn't "google" that.


And yes, I know how to "learn" to see, even though there are many things I certainly do not see.

As already discussed, we are pretty much all beginners on the Path.





Kindest regards, friend.




Kindest regards to you as well.



posted on Aug, 27 2006 @ 04:02 PM
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Hobbes


You're not still offended by that quote from Blavatsky and Samael Aun Weor about homosexuals and vampires are you?



Anyway...




Originally posted by Hobbes
The answer I provided addressed the original poster's question succintly, directly... and happened to be true.

Yours was too complicated, philosophical, and *not necessarily true*.




Just because you didn't begin to understand it does not mean it was "too complicated".




I'm not saying that what you posted is false. It happens to be false *for me*, and would be false for most masons. I'm not saying that no mason would wax philosophical and come to the same conclusion as you... some would. But, as a society, the 'meaning' you provided does not exist for 'the square'... so you are doing the original poster a disservice.





Oh really?

You would mean to tell Ra Un Nefer Amen, me and everybody else, that the knowledge that Ra Un Nefer Amen elaborated on(that FreeMasonry is based on) is doing the original poster a disservice?

As said already, the simple exoteric answer was already provided and I just happened to have some info to elaborate on the subject, that was more in the realm of "Speculative FreeMasonry" perhaps.

If you didn't agree with it, why did you even throw in your two-cents, if you weren't going to refute it somehow?


How about this.

Let's put all this bickering behind us move on.

Unless of course, you have some info that can show that the Kemetian interpretation of MAAT is not in alignment with the teachings of FreeMasonry in relation to the Square.


Fair enough?




Regards



posted on Aug, 27 2006 @ 06:40 PM
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Oh, so he only has to prove a negative? Yeah, THAT seems fair...



posted on Aug, 28 2006 @ 02:40 PM
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No.

I ask why he even brought it up, if he wasn't going to attempt to refute it in any way, that's all.

He doesn't have to agree or disagree with anything.

But don't you think it's pointless and even counter-productive to provoke someone for no apparent reason?


And, if anyone is offended by anything I've said, then please consider this.

I've not called anybody names.

I've not attacked anyone personally.

I've not claimed to be Enlighted or Illuminated.

And I've certainly nothing against FreeMasonry itself.


However, we should also bear in mind that even though one should be Compassionate, and tolerate as much as possible the negative manifestations of our fellow man, there reaches a point when tolerance becomes the opposite of Compassion.




"To live beyond good and evil is to correctly handle the “good” and “evil” energies in all their manifestations. In reality, good and evil do not exist, they are just descriptors; the limit of good is evil, and the limit of evil is good."





Types of Spiritual Schools


Evil-minded people with a lack of Comprehension mistakenly believe the Gnostic Movement is against schools, religions, orders, spiritual societies and sects. Nothing could be further from the truth. We are not against anyone; we only reveal and indicate where the danger is.

We, the Masters of the Conscious Circle of the Solar Humanity, are obliged to speak when necessary and to keep silent when necessary.

There are criminal silences; there are infamous words. It is equally wrong to speak when we must keep silent, as it is to keep silent when we must speak.

This does not mean, however, that we, the Masters, are against anyone. We do not hate, nor attack anyone; we merely reveal the danger. That is all.





Not that I'm a representative of the Conscious Circle of the Solar Humanity...


Although, as an example... we can cite the case of certain Tibetan monks who stood by and did nothing-for the sake of "not harming sentient beings"-while the communists raped and killed the Nuns.

However they did not consider that by not acting, they acquired a heavier karma than what they may or may not have acquired by trying to fight off the Zionist-communists.

Another example is the case where Samael Aun Weor and Krishnamurti were before a Master of the White Lodge in the Internal Planes.

Said Master asked them what they would do, if they were in the presence of a situation where someone is trying to rape a woman.

As one might expect, Krishnamurti said that he couldn't say, and that he would have to be in the moment of such a situation.

Samael Aun Weor said: "I would do anything to save that lady, even if it meant killing her attacker".

The Master said regarding Samael's statement: "Yes, that is the correct answer".


Now these are extreme cases, and other situations of much less magnitude require more Intuitional Discriminative Wisdom(acquired through daily meditation) in order to act properly; but you'll get the point I'm making in regard to "tough love" if you will.

(For more on this study the chapter on Geburah(the Pillar opposite, yet complementary to Chesed(MAAT)) in Dion Fortune's "Mystical Qabalah")

And, if anyone thinks that I'm speaking out of place; then by all means, address it.




Regards








[edit on 28-8-2006 by Tamahu]



posted on Aug, 28 2006 @ 03:11 PM
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Originally posted by Tamahu
Just because you didn't begin to understand it does not mean it was "too complicated".


Ok, seriously... now you're getting into personal attacks; I'm asking you politely to stop.

I understand what you posted, just fine. It is completely irrelevant to the topic, which is where I take issue.

If someone asked why people put numbers on the front of their houses, the answer is simply 'so folks can tell which house is which'. There is no need to go into a long discussion on numerology... while you may see it as relevant, it simply is not. And bringing up irrelevant material is doing a disservice to the original poster.



You would mean to tell Ra Un Nefer Amen, me and everybody else, that the knowledge that Ra Un Nefer Amen elaborated on(that FreeMasonry is based on) is doing the original poster a disservice?


Yes, that is pretty much what I'm saying.

The 'knowledge' that Ra Un Nefer Amen 'teaches' has nothing to do with Freemasonry. Freemasonry is not based off of his works, and the 'truths' he 'teaches' do not appear in any masonic document or teaching.

Therefore, that material is irrelevant, and just clutters up the discussion.



As said already, the simple exoteric answer was already provided and I just happened to have some info to elaborate on the subject, that was more in the realm of "Speculative FreeMasonry" perhaps.


Actually, neither of our answers revolved around physical masonry, and are therefore speculative.

Again, the problem: you didn't provide info on the subject. Poster asked what 'Parting on the Square' means to masons, and you provided information about your own personal interpretation, not about what the saying means to us as a group.



Unless of course, you have some info that can show that the Kemetian interpretation of MAAT is not in alignment with the teachings of FreeMasonry in relation to the Square.


There is no need. The OP didn't ask about interpretations of Ancient Egypt and if they are compatible with Freemasonry. He didn't ask about Catholicism, or Judaism, or any -ism for that matter.

He asked what the saying meant to Freemasons. It is a reference to our Operative Mason ancestors.

Now, YOU or anyone else, a mason or otherwise, can interpret our symbols ANY way you like. Knock your socks off, have a ball, enjoy. In fact, we welcome it... we're all about tolerance and philosophy, about differing viewpoints not muddying the waters.

But when you assert that YOUR interpretation is true for all of us... you are flat out wrong.

See Pike, Albert. We've been trying to make the point, for quite some time, that a personal interpretation doesn't constitute a view of the entire group.



posted on Aug, 28 2006 @ 03:24 PM
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Originally posted by TamahuIt would just be nice if instead of getting smart-aleck or cynical and skeptical remarks most of the time, if certain Masonic Brothers would open their minds every once in a while.


Our minds are open. You have made the fundimental error of assuming that if we are not with you, then we are against you.

I'm glad you have found enlightenment. I, too, have found light. My light, however, is different than your light... and *that's OK* It's perfect. It's how it SHOULD be.

But...

With tolerance also comes responsibility. You have to draw thick lines between what is YOU, and what is WE... Lest YOU assume that WE all believe the same, and impose your views upon ME... hindering MY ability to explore my own world.

Your views are not the views of Masonry. If you try to say that they are, you will be told that you are wrong. That's not close-mindedness, that's reality.



posted on Aug, 28 2006 @ 03:44 PM
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Originally posted by Tamahu
I ask why he even brought it up, if he wasn't going to attempt to refute it in any way, that's all.


I'm pretty sure when I said 'no, that's not true' I was refuting it.



But don't you think it's pointless and even counter-productive to provoke someone for no apparent reason?


'Provoke' you? The point of these forums is denying ignorance. When someone posts something that I know to be untrue, I'm going to say something about it.



I've not attacked anyone personally.


Point of order: I submit the following as a direct attack on my credibility:


Originally posted by Tamahu
It seems odd that someone(a Mason no-less) would think that those who founded the Masonic Order were ignorant of Kabbalistic symbolism(and would think they didn't utilize it).


Two attacks on the brothers present:


Originally posted by Tamahu
However, from the extremely myopic responses we usually get from Masons; it is obvious that many of them are not even trying, or are not willing to learn.


And a direct jab at me:


Originally posted by Tamahu
Just because you didn't begin to understand it does not mean it was "too complicated".


As such, I refute your plea.



However, we should also bear in mind that even though one should be Compassionate, and tolerate as much as possible the negative manifestations of our fellow man, there reaches a point when tolerance becomes the opposite of Compassion.


I haven't the foggiest what you are trying to get across here. Nor do I understand why you follow it up with pages of your own personal philosophy. How is that relevant to the topic?



posted on Aug, 28 2006 @ 04:34 PM
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EDIT: Double Post.

[edit on 28-8-2006 by Tamahu]



posted on Aug, 28 2006 @ 04:34 PM
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Those were not personal attacks.

But if the shoe fits...

That's all I'm saying.

And I'm not going to keep going line-for-line in attempt to spell out every particular detail of what I've presented, as what I've presented is self-evident in the context of what is being referred to.


Beyond that, I can see that to continue this would be pointless.

We'll just have to "agree to disagree" regarding many things.

Let me just say, that although we walk our paths according to our own karma, Light is not something subjective and vague, and Is What It Is, regardless of beliefs, dogmas and theories.


Let us quote the Great Magician, FreeMason and Alchemist Eliphas Levi(which was written over 100 years ago when the world was not near as degenerated as it is now) in bold, with some added notes.

I ask all the Masonic Brethren to read this carefully and take it how you will as a message, instead of worrying about the messenger:









...Science is a noblesse qui oblige and we shall in no wise fail to deserve the princely crown of the Rosy Cross. We also believe in the resurrection of Hiram.

The Rites of Masonry are designed to transmit a memorial of the legends of initiation and to preserve them among the Brethren. Now, if Masonry is thus holy and thus sublime, we may be asked how it came to be proscribed and condemned so often by the Church; but we have already replied to this question when its divisions and profanations were mentioned. Masonry is the Gnosis and the false Gnostics caused the condemnation of the true. The latter were driven into concealment, not through fear of the light, for the light is that which they desire, that which they seek and adore; but they stood in dread of the sacriligious-that is to say, of false interpreters, calumniators. the derision of the skeptic, the enemies of all belief and all morality. Moreover, at the present day, there are many who think that they are Masons and yet do not know the meaning of their Rites, having lost the Key of the Mysteries:






The Four Rivers of Eden

The great Hierophant Eliphas Levi said that the Great Magical Arcanum is the Tree of Life and that “at the foot of this Tree is the source of the four mysterious rivers of Eden.” Yet, he fearfully says in a moment of consternation: “Here I must pause, and I fear that already I have said too much.” This is the formidable, unutterable secret which no Initiate has ever dared to reveal. This is the formidable secret of the “Great Arcanum.” The four rivers of Eden are the sexual forces of man and woman. The Tree of Life is in the midst of these four rivers of Eden." - The Revolution of Beelzebub





They misconstrue even their symbolic pictures and those heiroglyphic signs which are emblazoned on the carpets of their Lodges. These pictures and signs are the pages of a book of absolute and universal science. They can be read by means of the Kabalistic keys and hold nothing in concealment for the initiate who already possesses those of Solomon(Solar Bodies).





The Universal Saviour(on the Solar Bodies)

...Those who understand the sacred science of Alchemy, will immediately recognize the meaning of this symbolism. One is aptly reminded of the doctrine of Simon Peter, Cephas Patar, “the Rock”: “I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on it shall not be confounded.” One born from the philosophic stone, “the (corner)stone the builders rejected,” the liquid stone of Mercury which is Yesod (Hebrew: Foundation), has built his house on a foundation of stone. He is twice-born. This also brings to bear the words of the wise King Drupada, from the Hindu epic Mahabharata, who states “among all men those who are twice-born are the best.”


All the principle tools of (Free)Masonry serve in order to work with the stone. Every Master Mason must chisel well his Philosophical Stone. This stone is the sex. We must build the temple of the Eternal One upon the Living Stone (and not build on sand).
– The Perfect Matrimony (p.305)

Masonic lodges were keepers of this knowledge of The Great Arcanum before degenerating into elitist social clubs that lost the meanings of their own symbols and rituals.





Masonry has not merely been profaned but has served as the veil and pretext of anarchic conspiracies depending from the secret influence of the vindicators of Jacques de Molay, and of those who continued the schismatic work of the Temple. In place of avenging the death of Hiram they have avenged that of his assassins(The Three Traitors).





kalignosis.com...

...The Hidden Christ is Lord of the Great Rebellion: the one who has been rejected by the priests, by the elders and by the scribes of the temple. Priests hate him, that is, they do not comprehend him. They wish that the Lord of Perfection would live exclusively in time, according to their unbreakable dogmas. The elders, that is, the Earth dwellers, good head of households, sensible, judicious people, abhor the Logos, the Red Christ, the Christ of the Great Rebellion, because he is beyond their world of habits and antiquated, reactionary, petrified customs from so many yesterdays. The scribes of the temple, the scoundrels of the intellect abhor the Intimate Christ because he is the antithesis of the Antichrist. He is the declared enemy of all the decaying university theories which abound so widely in the markets of bodies and souls.

The Three Traitors mortally hate the Hidden Christ and lead him to death within us and within our psychological space.

Judas, the demon of desire always exchanges the Lord for thirty pieces of silver, or better said, for liquor, money, fame, vanity, fornication, adultery, etc.

Pilate, the demon of the mind, always washes his hands, always pleads not guilty, is never at fault, constantly justifies his actions to himself and to others, seeks excuses and loopholes in order to evade his own responsibilities, etc.

Caiaphas, the demon of evil will, unceasingly betrays the Lord within ourselves. The Intimate Adored One gives him the shepherd’s staff to lead his sheep pasture, but the cynical traitor converts the altar into a bed of pleasures, fornicates incessantly, commits adultery, sells the sacraments, etc.

These Three Traitors compel the adored Intimate Lord to suffer in secret without any compassion whatsoever.

Pilate forces him to put the crown of thorns upon his temples; evil “I’s” scourge him, insult him, curse him in the innermost psychological space with no mercy of any kind. – Samael Aun Weor






The anarchists have resumed the rule, square and mallet, writing upon them the words Liberty, Equality, Fraternity
-Liberty, that is to say, for all the lusts, Equality in degredation and Fraternity in the work of destruction. Such are the men whom the Church has condemned justly and will condemn forever.






I'll probably be accused of personally attacking people and posting things irrelevant to FreeMasonry, however:





As for scoundrels, pseudo-learned ones, those who believe to be filled with virtues, what does it matter to science or to us if they laugh? - Esoteric Course of Runic Magic






The one who laughs at what he does not know is an ignoramus who walks the path of idiocy. - Victor Hugo








[edit on 28-8-2006 by Tamahu]



posted on Aug, 28 2006 @ 05:47 PM
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I'll probably be accused of personally attacking people and posting things irrelevant to FreeMasonry


No, just of being irrelevant to the topic, yet again.

If there is a point to your philosophical cut and pasting, start a new thread in that direction.



posted on Aug, 29 2006 @ 08:33 PM
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Originally posted by Hobbes
If there is a point to your philosophical cut and pasting, start a new thread in that direction.



No thanks.

At this point, I rest my case.




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