Examination of WTC Steel - Steven Jones

Originally posted by LaBTop

I should have said Polystyrene, not styrene. My bad.

Pyrolysis of polystyrene will produce diphenylpropane.

www.dipic.unipd.it...

chemeducator.org...

And you are right; it is a moot point since that is not the compound detected in the air samples.

1. Pyrolysis of pure polystyrene will produce styrene, not 1,3-diphenylpropane.
2. Pyrolysis of a specific mixture of polystyrene, polyamide 6 and polyethylene (3:1:1 by weight) will produce, among much bigger amounts of other decomposition products, circa 10% of 1,3-diphenylpropane.

Quote 1:
On pyrolysis, depolymerization of the polystyrene occurs and the product is styrene.

Quote 2:
Figs. 4 and 5 show characteristic pyrolysis products from the thermal degradation of two ternary mixtures—a mixture of poly(vinyl chloride), polystyrene and polyethylene (1:6:3 by weight, mixture 1) and a mixture of polystyrene, polyamide 6 and polyethylene (3:1:1 by weight, mixture 2). The obtained products differ significantly in both cases.
-snip-
Different products are obtained during the thermal degradation of mixture 2,
compare Fig. 5. The conversion of polyamide 6 into e-caprolactame is about 95%
resulting in an amount of 18% by volume e-caprolactame in the pyrolysis gases.
The amount of e-caprolactame is consistent with the available amount of
polyamide 6 in the mixture and a residence time of 26 min. The yield of styrene is
about 38% by volume in the pyrolysis gases whereas only a small amount of
ethylbenzene is formed. The amount of styrene dimer increases up to 25% by
volume and the amount of styrene trimer up to 15% by volume. Apart from that,
1,3-diphenylpropane occurs with an amount of 10% by volume.
The yield of styrene decreases when polyamide 6 is present in the mixture. In this
case a larger yield of styrene dimer and trimer is obtained.

You will only obtain 1,3-diphenylpropane in a specific test mixture 2, and at low yields, at a very specific temperature.

In the case of the burning WTC buildings and burning post-collapse debris heaps, there are very different temperature ranges to take in consideration (see NASA's hot spots measured by their planes), and when we consider temperatures above the fixed temperature of 380° C in above tests, I can asure you that the probability of increased occurances of derivates of 1,3-diphenylpropane will increase logarithmically with higher temperatures. Not even considering, the totally different setup of all constituents in these WTC fires.

I would suggest you to find the make-up of the plastics used in the manufacturing of computer monitors and housings, and keyboards, since you or your links expect them to be the source of that specific 1,3-diphenylpropane derivative at decomposing temperatures.

BTW,

And you are right; it is a moot point since that is not the compound detected in the air samples.

I posted quite a long exerpt out of the Sierra Report in your new thread around Prof. Jones and Kevin Ryan's remark about 1,3-diphenylpropane as a compound in aero gels used to mold explosive thermite charges.
(Your new thread : www.abovetopsecret.com... )
It is full of remarks about sampling of DPP in DUST samples.
Which has not been done by EPA, btw. And the sampling they did, was, amazingly, done with out of date methods and aperati.
It were outsourced firms which directed us to their very strange way of sampling of DUST, AIR and WATER, during the -critical for sampling taking- first weeks of such an immense historical happening on US soil.

They did not use f.ex. their own stringent advises for asbestos sampling in their own offices, but a totally outdated method. And accepted the removal of a stringent warning in their first report on 26 September 2001. And let it be replaced by a confirmation that it was save to return to work for all New Yorkers.

How about that for criminal behavior of the White House (who forced them to do so) and compliancy at their side?

[edit on 24/7/06 by LaBTop]

In addition, the compound 1,3-diphenylpropane- [ 1',1'-(1,3-propanediyl)bis-benzene] was observed, and to our knowledge, this species has not previously been reported from ambient sampling. It has been associated with polystyrene and other plastics, which are in abundance at the WTC site. These emissions lasted for at least 3 weeks (September 26-October 21, 2001) after the initial destruction of the WTC.

pubs.acs.org...

Oh, and BTW, styrene was detected in a large number of samples as well.

Originally posted by HowardRoark

Oh, and BTW, styrene was detected in a large number of samples as well.

It has alread been explained to you MANY times that 1,3-Dipheylpropane is NOT a by prduct of styrene so enough.

I will pre emp your next argument... it is NOT a pyproduct of polystyrene either.

Good try again though Howardroark.

Originally posted by Slap Nuts

Originally posted by HowardRoark

Oh, and BTW, styrene was detected in a large number of samples as well.

It has alread been explained to you MANY times that 1,3-Dipheylpropane is NOT a by prduct of styrene so enough.

I will pre emp your next argument... it is NOT a pyproduct of polystyrene either.

Good try again though Howardroark.

Sorry, but the compound is associated with the combustion of a variety of plastics.

Check out this paper:

bibliothek.fzk.de...

(See pages B3-4 through B3-6)



and this one:

Pyrolysis oils from PE/ABS-Br and PS/ABS-Br have different composition, as shown by C-NP gram that are presented in Fig. 5. PE/ABS-Br oil has a broad distribution of saturated and unsaturated hydrocarbons in the n-C5en-C19 region of C-NP gram, with two maxima at n-C9 and n-C14 (Fig. 5a). PS/ABS-Br oil shows a main peak at n-C8en-C10 that corresponds to
benzene derivatives (toluene, ethylbenzene, styrene, cumene, a-methylstyrene) and a small peak at n-C17 where 1,3-diphenylpropane is the main compound (Fig. 5b). This was expected considering that PE and PS, respectively, are the major polymer components in mixtures and their decomposition products will dominate oil composition.[/ex[

achem.okayama-u.ac.jp...



Keep in mind that the debris pile was a mish mash of a number of materials. there were many different types of plastics burning.

Originally posted by HowardRoark
Sorry, but the compound is associated with the combustion of a variety of plastics.

Like Labtop said, in small amounts, at very specific tepmeratures and from VERY specific compounds with the amount DECREASING as temperature goes up...

Edit


[Mod Edit: Baiting removed. Please try to discuss the topic in a mature manner. Thank you - Jak]

[edit on 12/9/06 by JAK]

Apparently you didn't bother to read the source that I provided.

1,3-DPP products increase around 500 C. for certain plastics.

Furthermore, as I stated, the WTC debris pile was not a laboratory distilation aparatus, there were lots of things in there all interacting.

The compound IS associated with the thermal breakdown and combustion of plastics.

To claim any other source is just pointless.

Originally posted by HowardRoark
1,3-DPP products increase around 500 C. for certain plastics.

Certain "rare" plastics... we are not talking about PET #1... we are talking about a mixture of polystyrene, polyamide 6 and polyethylene (3:1:1 by weight)...

List for me a common product that uses such a plastic...

Originally posted by HowardRoark
Furthermore, as I stated, the WTC debris pile was not a laboratory distilation aparatus, there were lots of things in there all interacting.

Which lessens the odds of the exact temps and combinations of plastic IN LARGE ENOUGH QUANTITIES... Duh.

Originally posted by HowardRoark
The compound IS associated with the thermal breakdown and combustion of plastics.

In VERY limited quantity from VERY specifc plastics, in VERY specific conditions... or it could be from AEROGEL under normal conditions.

Originally posted by HowardRoark
To claim any other source is just pointless.

If your name is Howardroark.

Originally posted by Slap Nuts


Which lessens the odds of the exact temps and combinations of plastic IN LARGE ENOUGH QUANTITIES... Duh.

No, which means that numerous reactions are possible with basic chemical products being formed.

If it was "sor-gell" how come it wasn't destroyed by the heat of the thermite?





Give it up, this is a dead end.





Uh, oh.

Jones is moving away from sulphur and 1,3-DPP and is now focusing on fluorine and zinc. Get with the program, slap.

He said his investigation was finding fluorine and zinc in metal debris and dust gathered from near the trade center site, and argued that those elements should not have been found in the building compounds. "We are investigating the possibility of thermite-based arson and demolition," he wrote, referring to compounds that, under controlled circumstances, can cut through steel.

www.iht.com.../articles/2006/09/01/news/conspiracy.php

1,3-Dipheylpropane is used in detonation cord and can react much the same way as thermite, new version can slice through a lot of things including steel. The slicing really melts the steel and blows it away from the steel. During the power down of the prior weekend, workmen were seen carrying many many spools of cable, this cable could have been detonation cord. Two days pplace in the right place by no more then 10 workers could have carried out the explosions we have seen.

Originally posted by mondegreen During the power down of the prior weekend, workmen were seen carrying many many spools of cable, this cable could have been detonation cord.

I don't suppose you have a source for any of this do you?

The "power down" has been said to exist for one tower, by one person, and fails to meet the most basic journalistic standards. It has not been confirmed by any source.

So do you have proof of a power down, let alone proof that cables were being hauled in during the said power down.

Even if you did, it takes more than twelve hours by even the most optimistic standards to wire buildings of this size.

How was this accomplished?

Originally posted by HowardRoark
No, which means that numerous reactions are possible with basic chemical products being formed.

Not according to your source or mine.

Originally posted by HowardRoark
Jones is moving away from sulphur and 1,3-DPP and is now focusing on fluorine and zinc. Get with the program, slap. [/quote

He is not moving way from anything... just investigating all of the angles uncovered since the slag tests.