Let's talk about Iranian F-14

Originally posted by Pyros
One has to believe that the Iranians, at this point, would be much more interested in expending time, money, and energy into putting their Iraqi-aquired Fulcrums and Mirages in the air......rather than wasting their time with a bunch of jury-rigged, 30 year old Tomcats, no?

I believe they try to keep them all flying, if it's true they were seen in combat exercies yesteray.

[edit on 24-8-2006 by Figher Master FIN]

Regardless of the alleged capability of Iranian technical abilities, I doubt the F14's in the Islamic Republic's Air Force have changed very much. They may have been able to tinker around with a few avionics systems to keep the 30 year-old fighters aloft, but apart from that they are probably more-or-less the same. Flight International 2004, stated that 19 aircraft were operational and the rest were stored (read used for spare parts). Certainly the significant systems (like the AN/AWG-9 radar) are almost certainly in the techological state that they were left in in 1979 when the Shah's dictatorship was replaced by another dictatorship.

On balance, in any shooting war the Iranian airforce would be taken to pieces quite quickly - if not by stand-off munitions levelling the airfields - then by the numerical and technologically superior opposition (whoever they may be).

The only saving grace of the Iranian airforce (in my opinion) would be.. er... the handful of Mig-29As of which there are reported to be 35. The rest of the airforce is obsolete F-14A, Su-24MK, F-4, F-5, F-7, F-6, Mirage F1EQ, Su-20, Su-25 - many of which are stored. Although I have no note of the various ex-Iraqi types that managed to make it to Iran in Gulf War 1.

So, in summary... The F14 in Iranian service are more a short-term morale booster for the locals. Not much good though when their poor pilots have to face the reality of whatever their leaders decide to lead them in to.

Regards

I got to thinking about this thread while traveling to college today (that's a good four hour drive, plenty time to think, eh?), and something hit me. What if there were more planes than what Iran let on? The black market is still strong as ever, and some people in Russia are willing to overlook things that happen for a price.

What I am getting at is if Iran can build underground nuclear facilities without the world knowing, what is to stop it from hiding some planes in other underground hardened bunkers that we don't know about? Those planes could be anything.

I just get the feeling that we are being led on by Iran. That the aging fleet of aircraft is just there in order to keep us feeling good and to bait us in. If their fleet of aircraft is so old, then why is Bush not charging ahead like he did in Iraq? I know that is a stupid question, but if their air power isn't so good, do you really think the only reason that they US is being "patient" is because Iran may have nukes?

Then another thought happened to me. What if when( or if, just in case) the US invades Iran, the advancing air squadron meets hundreds of F-22's or some F-35's. When I thought about this, I just started laughing. It certainly would make us think twice, wouldn't it?

[edit on 8/26/2006 by Sir Solomon]

Originally posted by Sir Solomon
I got to thinking about this thread while traveling to college today (that's a good four hour drive, plenty time to think, eh?), and something hit me. What if there were more planes than what Iran let on? The black market is still strong as ever, and some people in Russia are willing to overlook things that happen for a price.

Pressure on the CIS crowd by the US and others has apparently prevented much high-grade military sales - such as aircraft and spares - between the CIS and Iran. This is why Iran has turned to China and is developing quite a cosy relationship. It will be interesting what will be exchanged for all that oil and gas - but I predict Iran turning Chinese over the next few years.

Regards

You do know hat Iran bought the plans for an early version of the MiG - I-2000 and are building it as the Shafaq? A Low Observables lightweight attack aircraft?

Originally posted by Harlequin
You do know hat Iran bought the plans for an early version of the MiG - I-2000 and are building it as the Shafaq? A Low Observables lightweight attack aircraft?

Yes, but the Shafaq is a subsonic light attack aircraft of a design which is a couple of decades old... "Radar absorbing materials" could mean the aircraft is made of wood and "low observability" will come from the fact the aircraft will be small.

The actual aircraft may be fairly straight forward to build if you have the blueprints and some technical help, but the tricky things will be (a) engines and (b) electronics such as radars etc...

As the Russians are no longer involved in the project, I would see it going two ways...

Way One... The project will be scrapped after a few prototypes are flown thus demonstrating Irans "self sufficiency" to the Iranian population and co... This will serve to maintain the popularity Iran's leaders.

Way Two... The project will result in a low number of operational aircraft with Chinese sourced engines and not much else.

Either way, I think Iran will eventually purchase Chinese aircraft. China needs oil and influence and Iran wants something better than what they currently have.

Maybe, they'll not bother with an airforce when they have nukes, which is especially alarming, but that's another topic for discussion.

Regards

The aircraft is powered by the same unit that powers the MiG-29 , which russia Are upgrading for the Iranian Airforce


`couple of decades old` - wrong - the design is from the very earliest 1990 - thats 16 years not ` a couple of decades` but then again the F-22 is of a similar vintage.


"Radar absorbing materials" could mean the aircraft is made of wood and "low observability" will come from the fact the aircraft will be small


so the F-22 is a 5 layer plywood constructed and small aircraft? i think not so stop being so blinded that other countries do not have technology to a similar level to the usa.


Way One... The project will be scrapped after a few prototypes are flown thus demonstrating Irans "self sufficiency" to the Iranian population and co... This will serve to maintain the popularity Iran's leaders.

Way Two... The project will result in a low number of operational aircraft with Chinese sourced engines and not much else.


wrong and wrong - they are using russian engines , and will build MANY airframes and fly them - please think outside the box.

Either way, I think Iran will eventually purchase Chinese aircraft. China needs oil and influence and Iran wants something better than what they currently have.


no , they can buy from russia if they really want to, but being self sufficient is far more important - i do believe there own long range missile tech is superior to that of , say , NK.

Originally posted by Sir Solomon
What I am getting at is if Iran can build underground nuclear facilities without the world knowing, what is to stop it from hiding some planes in other underground hardened bunkers that we don't know about? Those planes could be anything.

Sorry, I do think so. You can test nuke underground but aircraft, you must test it in air. Even such big country USSR, US satellite had found what they flying as soon as they flew. Any weapon you testing can be hiden,but aircraft and surface fightingship.

Originally posted by emile
Sorry, I do think so. You can test nuke underground but aircraft, you must test it in air. Even such big country USSR, US satellite had found what they flying as soon as they flew. Any weapon you testing can be hiden,but aircraft and surface fightingship.

I know that they would have to test the planes in the air. What I was getting at though was the fact that they could have underground bases with more advanced airplanes. The air force that Iran shows could just be the trainers for all we know.

I'm just thinking that they have to have some kind of ace in the hole (other than WMD's).

Well!
Maybe I am wrong, because I have never been to Iran so I also don't know much more. But I think we can guess by logical illation. If Iran do has advanced fighter why they still bought some Mig-29, which, factually isn't so good according to its actual combat in Yugo. If Iran do has some realizable fighter project, why there are so many information tell us that Iran want to buy more modern fighter from China or Russia? If Iran can made any superior fighter as better as Su-27, I THINK that F-22 with its studying ability of US would be the biggest rubbish in this world.

To Emile.

Iran's aircraft is a light aircraft. The Iranians are interested in purchasing medium/heavy aircraft on the level of SU-27 style and F-15 style aircraft that are twin engined and they are also interested in aircraft on the level of the J-10/F-16 which are single engine medium fighter/bombers.

The Iranians stealth Aircraft is a light aircraft and if they do have it then it should be one of the best aircrafts in it's class in the world but in no way can it compete with heavy fighter/bombers on the level of the F-15 but should be good enough in my opinion depending on how "stealth" it is to take out a few F-16 type aircraft if it gets close enough to launch some IR guided missiles.

I don't think that Shafaq or other stealth project Iran made will be a huge threat to USAF. For Iranian Airforce, the only thing I worried only is F-14 with АД-31 equiped Я-37 missile. If the Shafaq just equiped RD-93, there will be nothing.

I have nasty picture in my head (nasty for USAF):

F-14A AWACS/Fire-control platforms searching and targetting for LO Light Fighters (shafagh) without radars carrying 2-3 BVRAMs... Would this sound as a credible tactic (IF Shafagh would be in service)

Originally posted by northwolf
F-14A AWACS/Fire-control platforms searching and targetting for LO Light Fighters (shafagh) without radars carrying 2-3 BVRAMs... Would this sound as a credible tactic (IF Shafagh would be in service)

They may even try to use a large network of ground radar, Electro Optic systems and Infra Red search and detection systems as a form of ground bases "AWACS"/"Early warning System" network and then use the light fighter Shafagh with Long range Air to air missiles to take out targets combined with surface to air missiles as well.

Also seeing all the new weapons Iran seems to be pulling out i'm wondering do they also have some sort of "passive radar" to detect stealth aircraft for example like the Czech "Tamara" detection system. Since Iran seems to be getting decent equipment from both Russia and China i'm wondering would they also have handed over a system that was able to detect stealth aircraft. Iran seems to have some Iron Testicles lately when it's been talking about America and how it can stop America.

The Shafagh, I’m not buying this LO crap, first I want to see its radar specs, weapon specs, avionic specs, and this LO technology demonstrated. Sorry but it looks to me like a light trainer/attack aircraft which is small and hence might be dubbed by some as LO, which I don’t think it is, not in the true sense.

Originally posted by emile
If there is no air force base could be used to detroy Iran Nuclear Station, so no F-22 could be used to support US force striking, I strongly worried that Super Hornet can defeat F-14 which has still being used by Iran. So my question for experts here is that do you know how many F-14s and phoenix missiles still can join fight in air today? I think the F-14 is an unbeatable fighter no matter who use it, while I say this which means you can NOT consider that your enemy always being a foolish man.

If we do go after their nuclear plant, you can figure we'll do it at night. During my numerous deployments to the Gulf from 1988-2002, the Iranians never flew their aircraft at night. And aside from their P-3 and helo's, they avoided flying over water whenever possible as well.

Not sure if that's changed since, but something to think about.

Thanks for the comments on my post. Just to address / clarify a couple of issues...

Originally posted by Harlequin
The aircraft is powered by the same unit that powers the MiG-29 , which russia Are upgrading for the Iranian Airforce

There is speculation that the RD33 will power the Shafaq. If you have evidence that this is fact, please post or cite source. According to Flight International there have been discussions to licence build the RD-33 engines in Iran – but only for the Mig-29s that Iran operate.

Originally posted by Harlequin
`couple of decades old` - wrong - the design is from the very earliest 1990 - thats 16 years not ` a couple of decades` but then again the F-22 is of a similar vintage.

Let's not get into semantics. 16 years is more-or-less two decades.

Originally posted by Harlequin
… so the F-22 is a 5 layer plywood constructed and small aircraft? i think not so stop being so blinded that other countries do not have technology to a similar level to the usa.

The point is that apart from a statements like "the Shafaq will have radar absorbing materials" no-one actually knows what that means or how it will manifest itself in reality. As a starting point, Shafaq will be small and consequently it will be less visually observable. I think many countries have technology to US equivalence, just not third world dictatorships like Iran who have a zero high tech industrial base.

Originally posted by Harlequin
wrong and wrong - they are using russian engines , and will build MANY airframes and fly them - please think outside the box.

Engines just make the thing get off the ground. I am afraid that neither of us know whether Shafaq will get into production and to what extent. I hypothesise that Shafaq will not get passed the prototype stages because it will be easier to buy from China and they’ll probably get a better plane too!

Originally posted by Harlequin
no , they can buy from russia if they really want to, but being self sufficient is far more important - i do believe there own long range missile tech is superior to that of , say , NK.

I think North Korea and Iran have an intertwined relationship regarding missile technologies, although most of Iran’s missiles are based on North Korean examples.

I also suggest that China will be the source of Iranian aircraft and technology. This is not fantasy but based on fact and the developing Sino-Iran relations. China sees Iran as an oil resource and has already signed various high profile trade agreements. On the other hand there are no economic ties of significance between Russia and Iran as they are both energy rich – China being energy poor. The growing economic ties between Iran and China will yield growing traffic of military sales and technologies. It is a well known fact (for example) that China have exported missile technology to Iran. Apart from the Y-7 transport orders Flight International have also reported that Iran have talked to China about the Xian FB-7 and Shenyang F-8IIM strike aircraft.

Regards


[edit on 28/8/2006 by paraphi]

Originally posted by emile
If there is no air force base could be used to detroy Iran Nuclear Station, so no F-22 could be used to support US force striking, I strongly worried that Super Hornet can defeat F-14 which has still being used by Iran. So my question for experts here is that do you know how many F-14s and phoenix missiles still can join fight in air today? I think the F-14 is an unbeatable fighter no matter who use it, while I say this which means you can NOT consider that your enemy always being a foolish man.

you know the skill of the piolet depends on the planes and piolets survival.tell you what the f-14 is one powerful fighter though there are better aircrafts like the
Sukhois SU-37.its known as the best plane.what i heard.thanks to the thrust vectoring nozzles. its very unstable. this is one advantage

The Su-37 is still a prototype.

I agree though that the plane is still only a secondary factor compared to the skill of the pilot. Something though I would like to say that we did train some of the first people for Iran back when the sale of the F-14A's went down. Now not all of them are still alive thanks to the Iran-Iraq war, but still there are some, which means there could be a capable instructor base for Iranian fighter pilots.

Now I'm not saying that they are not the most trained in the world, but the capability could be there, and with them being friendly with both China and Russia, you have another two countries' worth of experience to blend.

The impact of this could be anything from nothing at all, to a radical thought on tactics and how they fight altogether. Heck for all we know, they could have a bunch of older MiG-21's set up for Kamikaze runs.

I'm still concerned at how Bush has been trying to go through the UN this time around (unlike Iraq), this tells me that he has a reason not to go in alone other than to keep the rest of the world from being ticked at him. What is Iran hiding that Bush knows about and is wary of?

Originally posted by WestPoint23
The Shafagh, I’m not buying this LO crap, first I want to see its radar specs, weapon specs, avionic specs, and this LO technology demonstrated. Sorry but it looks to me like a light trainer/attack aircraft which is small and hence might be dubbed by some as LO, which I don’t think it is, not in the true sense.

My take is that it is LO but not as much as say a clean JSF or F-22. It clearly has design elememts which imply stealth consideratins in the design, but it probably doesn't have a weapons bay.

And although I agree that there will be a supersonic trainer version, I consider it more in the running with the FC-1 and LCA and a step up from the F-50. Certainly it will be a very credible threat in A-A.