Stuart Middle School teacher burns U.S. flags in class

Originally posted by kuhl
Burning the flag is so unpatriotic you have to wonder if this guy has hidden agendas. Nice find Lake.

[edit on 22/8/2006 by kuhl]

Taking a Bow eventhough some people on ATS thinks it is ok to burn a OUR FLAG.



[edit on 8/22/2006 by lakewoodrealtor]

lol...he was trying to teach the kids about freedom of speech and well, the school fired him and taut his kids the opposite. im going to go burn a flag right now just because i want to.

Originally posted by bokinsmowl
lol...he was trying to teach the kids about freedom of speech and well, the school fired him and taut his kids the opposite.

The school didn’t fire him (yet), he was removed from the classroom pending further action.



[edit on 22-8-2006 by WestPoint23]

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Whatever the context this is inappropriate for school,

Why? Why is it inappropriate? Sure there are other ways and maybe you would have used another way, but why is this inappropriate?

From the original source:

Dan Holden, who teaches seventh-grade social studies, burned small flags in two different classes Friday and asked students to write an opinion paper about it, district spokeswoman Lauren Roberts said.

What better way to get the opinion juices flowing and passionate discussion about our first amendment rights than to exercise them in a controversial way? I commend this teacher.

Originally posted by bokinsmowl
lol...he was trying to teach the kids about freedom of speech and well, the school fired him and taut his kids the opposite. im going to go burn a flag right now just because i want to.

Exactly!



[edit on 22-8-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]

This is hilarious. The guy is making a speech on freedom of speech, demostrates what freedom of speech is, and gets arrested for it lol.


Well the kids learned a valuable lesson today, you can say whatever you want, as long as everybody agrees with you

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Why? Why is it inappropriate? Sure there are other ways and maybe you would have used another way, but why is this inappropriate?

I can't understand why it's such a big deal, BH, especially since you brought the core truth of the matter out in the next quote you made:

From the original source:

Dan Holden, who teaches seventh-grade social studies, burned small flags in two different classes Friday and asked students to write an opinion paper about it, district spokeswoman Lauren Roberts said.

Small flags, I had taken only issue with the idea that he was doing 3'x5' flags in a building. Those little flags go up in smoke very quickly. I think it was a great lesson, and having them write an essay on it is an excellent idea.

What's even funnier is that we have someone arguing about this who has an avatar with a chopped up flag sewn into a one-piece bathing suit. We can apparently wear it like that, but we can't burn one. Pray tell, what do you think happens with the scraps of flag they don't use for the suit? Patchwork quilts or an incinerator?? Wearing the flag does in fact go against the code of flag presentation.


Thank you very much BH for bringing a very important point about this up to the front. My applause to you.





[edit on 8/22/06 by niteboy82]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Why? Why is it inappropriate? Sure there are other ways and maybe you would have used another way, but why is this inappropriate?

Well, this is a very sensetive issue, whether or not you think it should be is irrelevant, some people will get offended by it because they think its wrong or just don’t agree that it’s the best way to teach students. And I agree with them, this was inappropriate and not the brightest idea, this teacher should not be allowed to do this again, not in a classroom. Just like everything time, place and manor should be considered. Just because a teacher can curse doesn’t mean they should in front of their students to "inspire" them to think about free speech.
Then there’s the fire issue, but that’s not the spirit of the conversation.

And Niteboy, if you’re interested about my avatar feel free to send me a U2U, and did I say you or the teacher in question can’t burn a flag?

It seems as apropriate as any method of teaching. If the only reason that it is inaproriate is because it's a sensative issue, then people need to get over it. If you want to engage 7th graders to think about their rights then give them a demonstration. If they agree with it, they'll speak up, if not, then they'll do the same.


Also, equating cursing to flag burning doesn't really work for this argument.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
Also, equating cursing to flag burning doesn't really work for this argument.

Because…

Burning a flag in a classroom as part of a curriculum should not be allowed, it IS inappropriate and the school IMO shouldn’t allow it.

Because...

They have nothing in common. If you feel there is a similarity between the two, specify.

As for the appropriateness ofthe flag burning, you haven't showed that it isn't appropriate in any way, other than your oppinion. When those oppinions start getting in the way of education, that's when the problems arise.

My HS english teacher had us watch a Clockwork orange, 1984, and rollerball and write an essay on each exlpaining what we thought. He got into serious trouble because of a brief nude scene in 1984 and Clockwork. From that we saw, in action, the progression that 1984 described.

If we disagree with teaching methods, we have to be careful about how we react. I'm sure the kids are still learning, but now they are larning that if you do something that others don't agree with, you will be shunned and possibly punished.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Burning a flag in a classroom as part of a curriculum should not be allowed, it IS inappropriate and the school IMO shouldn’t allow it.

Well, I guess the difference between you and I is that I support freedom of speech, even if it's deemed "inappropriate" by some. For example, I totally support you having your avatar, even though I find it disgusting.

I don't support freedom of speech only when I agree with it or judge it as appropriate.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Well, I guess the difference between you and I is that I support freedom of speech, even if it's deemed "inappropriate" by some. For example, I totally support you having your avatar, even though I find it disgusting.

I don't support freedom of speech only when I agree with it or judge it as appropriate.

BH, you’re misunderstanding me, it is inappropriate for school, I didn’t say this teacher shouldn’t have burned the flag because he has no right (in general) to do it, again I said he shouldn’t have done it in school as part of the curriculum. Please consider time, place and manner, these are very important factors. For example, does someone have a right to dress like the woman in my avatar? Yes. Would it be inappropriate if a teacher dressed like that and went to teach her students? Yes. See what I’m trying to say?

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
They have nothing in common. If you feel there is a similarity between the two, specify.

I touched on it above but I’ll try to go over it. You have a right to curse, but there is a time and place for everything, you would get in trouble if you got a loudspeaker and started cursing in the middle of your street. But not if you’re in your house and talking to your friend, there is a difference. Some things are deemed to be inappropriate and offensive when done/said under certain circumstances. Burning a flag and or cursing are two of these things which are governed by time place and manner. And both are inappropriate in a setting such as a classroom.

Sure you have freedom of speech, and burning your country's national flag is part of that. But why is it so important to do it to prove you have that right? And it is offensive to some, but I guess your rights supercedes all? I thought the flag was symbol of our rights?
Just thought of something, the confederate flag is not allowed in many places. Is it not these morons right to free speech also to fly these( offensive to many ) flags?

I'm still having trouble figuring out how you came to the conclusion that burning as small flag (safety aside) and having students write an essay about how they feel about it is inappropriate. You say it as if it's decidedly so, and final, but there is a big gap in the reasoning. There is nothing saying Burning a flag is inappropriate in class because......

[edit on 22-8-2006 by Rasobasi420]

I find nothing wrong with WESTPOINT23 's avatar. Stimulating, actually.

I also agree with WESTPOINT23 's view concerning "the way" this was done.
Not right.

And although I believe in Freedom of Speech very strongly, I believe that flag has
earned a special place in my heart, respectfully.

Next time, to make a really good impression on the kiddies, have the teacher
drape himself with the flag before setting it on fire.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
I'm still having trouble figuring out how you came to the conclusion that burning as small flag (safety aside) and having students write an essay about how they feel about it is inappropriate. You say it as if it's decidedly so, and final, but there is a big gap in the reasoning. There is nothing saying Burning a flag is inappropriate in class because......

Burning the flag is a controversial issue, sensitive topic and one that offends many, you may have a right to burn it but not in a classroom setting, regardless of the reasoning behind it. Just like you can’t curse in a classroom in order to provoke students into write a paper on how it relates to free speech. These are offensive actions to many, and therefore are not appropriate in THAT setting. And Rasobasi you’re making this more difficult than it has to be, its called common sense, do you really need a rule that says "Cursing or using profanity is a classroom is inappropriate because…"?

The Charmin bear has earned a special place in my heart, yet people insist on wiping his product on their rectums.

the symbolism is one thing, and I can see why people hold the flag at a "special place in their hearts", but that has as much to do with me as the Charmin bear has to do with you. I'll burn my flag, while you wipe your @$$ with your Charmin.

As for the classroom, he's a teacher, and it's his job to stimulate the minds of children. Unless he's causing them harm, I say let him teach how he wants.

Originally posted by lorentrook
but I guess your rights supercedes all?

Yes! Absolutely! Why shouldn't the constitutionally guaranteed right supercede someone's 'right' not to be offended?

Westie, 'inappropriate' is a judgement call. Your avatar is inappropriate by some people's standards. For one thing, it uses the flag as clothing, breaking the flag code. For another thing, there are children on this board whose parent's might not want them seeing a half naked woman donning the American flag.

I have told you why your avatar may be considered inappropriate. (I don't really care, I just think she's fugly- always have.) But you have yet to say SPECIFICALLY why burning the flag was inappropriate. You just say it was. Tell me why.

You're certainly free to your opinion to whether or not this teacher acted inappropriately, we just disagree. I support your right and the teacher's right, though.

And I can't think of another action to get these students discussing passionately the subjects of freedom of speech, the Constitution and patriotism. I think the teacher did a great service to the whole school. See how we're discussing it here? Sure, he could have read the First Amendment to them... Bored now! But he probably thought... "How can I get these kids really interested in discussing Freedom of Speech? How can I really teach them what it means"?

Westie, I think it's too bad you didn't have this teacher...

Originally posted by WestPoint23
And Rasobasi you’re making this more difficult than it has to be, its called common sense, do you really need a rule that says "Cursing or using profanity is a classroom is inappropriate because…"?

Yes, otherwise we could just take anything that someone finds offensive and outlaw it. Or say that it doesn't belong in a classroom. Personally, I find the questioning of this man's freedoms as more offensive than the act itself. Does that mean, because I may be offended by it, this subject doesn't belong in the classroom?

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
As for the classroom, he's a teacher, and it's his job to stimulate the minds of children. Unless he's causing them harm, I say let him teach how he wants.

Well, in the US that’s not how our educational system is, there is a curriculum and an appropriate way of teaching, one that is educational, while at the same time thought provoking, respectful, and peaceful. My educational experience was all those things, yet my teachers didn’t need to burn a flag in order to achieve those points. You do not need to shoot a live animal in class in order to demonstrate a particular point about anatomy.