The Time Has Arrived to Practice Quantum Physics, My Friends...

Alright, since people don't seem to understand.

Quantum Physics does indeed speak of subjective realities. It states that your reality is based on what you know. Basically the whole Schrodinger's Cat thing (look it up on Wikipedia for an explanation).

Now, you're confusing subjective reality with collective reality.

Subjective reality means (restating) that each reality is dependant on the observer. That is, your reality (what you think and what you think you know) is not, say, my reality. A universe exists in your mind, and it is from what you've seen and heard (for example, you think you know a person, but in reality what they truly aren't what you think; that sort of thing. The person you think you know exists in your reality, but not the true reality). THIS is what Quantum Physics says exists, and there's no way it doesn't if you think about it (conclusions are frowned upon, I know, but I can safely say that everyone's mind isn't the same).

Collective reality means that the TRUE reality (what the subjective realities are created from) is formed by the collective minds of living beings (now this can mean anything, from all humans, to humans and animals - it's pretty much an aspect of religion). That's where this "positive thinking will make things better!" thing comes from. The belief is that if everyone thinks negative thoughts, negative things will happen, and vice versa. I don't personally believe in this, but I don't exactly think it's false - I don't know.

Now you can see why this IS NOT QUANTUM PHYSICS and IS NOT SCIENCE. I -do- believe that positive thinking is a VERY good thing. Whether or not it will change reality doesn't really mean anything. What it does do is make -you,- the individual who is practicing positive thinking, a more positive person. This positivity makes you and the world around you (depending on your contact with other things) more positive as well. So while there might not be any OMGMAGIC going on, you're still making the world a better place.

[edit on 22-8-2006 by Johnmike]

Well, then...
You all can argue up a storm about something that even the best minds cant agree on...
dont let me stop ya...

remember superstring theory?... any superstringers here? cash out bubs.. that is way old news, and totally obsolete...
any M theorys here? any? any? well you would be the top star of the day, instead of the laughing stock of yesterday, but you will be laughed at again tommorow...
because that too is in contention...

so all the "know it alls" out there can know it all until ignorance takes ya...
tommorow will bring up another herd of knowitalls that will knock ya down with new and more valid research....

such is the endless cycle of science until we do understand it all...
but if course, if modern QP theory wins out, then the minute we prove something, it will change anyway... by the very observation of it...

Good luck with that road,
I for one, will follow the path with all the signs that say "free beer this way"
and "beleive it, to concieve it"

Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
If A relates to B in relation to C
then A is related to C

so therefore Positive Thinking is merely a concept that is proven by the relationshop of A, B, and C

It isn't QP per say, rather it is proven by it in context... and i can see why that difference is touchy, since scientists always seem to get very "in a tizzy" about it...

Cool, okay, now that we're on logical, rational ground...

1.) Aristotle felt much the same way, but the organan reasoning is inherently flawed when shown by a venn diagram.

Let's use your example.

A relates to B, which relates to C.

Now, let proof it out using a real world example.

A = Monkeys.

B = Bananas.

C = Trees.

Monkeys eat bananas which grow on trees.

Trees happen to relate to monkeys, but that's where the similarity stops:

* Monkeys and Trees are not even in the same Kingdom of life classification, the first divider of life places them entirely in opposite camps.

* Monkeys do not eat everything that grows in trees.

* Not every tree has had a monkey anywhere near it, ever, in its life.

* Not every monkey neccessarily makes it to a tree.

* Sometimes monkeys eat something besides bananas.

* Sometimes monkeys do things with bananas besides eating them.


So just because dots between points A and C can be connected, it doesn't neccessarily mean they define each other. It simply means that, under a particular set of circumstances, they have found a common ground that can be expressed in the form of a sentence.

Much the same is true of the Paranormal versus Quantum Physics. They may indeed share a common ground via some connecting dots, and this may be able to someday be expressed in the form of an equation, but there the similarity ends.


2.) Nothing has been proven yet. And in hard science, proof, or at the very least, empirical evidence, is all that matters.


3.) Scientists get in a tizzy about it because some of them have been laboring physically, mentally, emotionally, and experimentally for DECADES only to watch people like DGTempe come along and muck up all the perceptions about what they've spent their entire lives and resources trying to understand. In some cases, these families have been working out one particular problem for generations. When they see their work, and the phrase to describe it, used like toilet paper to describe something its not, they get very very upset. Imagine if you were working to complete a classical string quartet piece that your grandfather had begun, that your father continued the work on, and then passed on to you to carry the banner. Almost a century's worth of work that was further begun by people long dead... and in an age where Classical Music has nearly died out as an art form, you FINALLY manage to get the public to hear it, and they finally take an interest in the piece, and it even gets some radio play. Then one day a rap artist comes around, snatches up bits and pieces of your song, and literally overnight has re-hashed it to become a backup track in a gansta rap song about blunts, bitches, and 40's, and then had the gall to call the whole thing Classical Music.

That's exactly what's happened in this thread. That's why I'm upset, and so adamant about the difference. It's not that I'm bagging on the paranormal (or gangsta rap, for that matter). It's that the paranormal ISN'T Quantum Physics. It may be able to be described, someday, by QP, but that's where the relationship would end, and it absolutely is not the case today.



EDIT: One more thing. The list of theories you said were old news. Those are called "Theories" for a reason. And while Quantum Physics is composed of lots of formulas, including theories, it is not, in and of itself a theory. It is a system of Math, and those are not easily or often disproven. It may very well happen that one day we look back upon QP and laugh heartily, but not nearly as often as a theory. Theories are there to be disproven or proven. Maths are there to help prove or disprove theories. That's a crucial difference.



[edit on 8/22/2006 by thelibra]

I'm simply explaining confusion about what Quantum Physics truly is, since some people are a bit confused. No arguing, not to worry.

Also, you mention the "if observed it will change" idea. Lazarus, you're applying it to something it isn't meant to be.

What this principle means is that if you measure something (in the context of the quantum-sized world for the most part) it will have changed. This is a huge issue when measuring the position of electrons, photons, things like that. To measure something, it must be hit with something that will bounced off (usually), like sonar in a way. Your eyes work this way, light bounces off of a wall and into your eyes. But! What if the particle you're measuring is a single particle by itself, and that's all your focus is? When hit by a photon (or electron, since electrons are smaller they're used in electron microscopes and the like) the particle is being HIT. This is a COLLISION. During this collision the particle being measured (hit) is going to move a bit (or a lot) because you just slammed another particle into it.

That's where that idea comes from. It has nothing to do with the truthfulness of laws or anything.

[edit on 22-8-2006 by Johnmike]

Libra
Ok, monkeys and trees... it works...
My analogy was more along the lines of
Monkeys eat bananas from trees... (and apparently do other things with bananas)
which proves that Monkeys are alive...

QP proves that Positive thinking works, in much the same way...
we see the connections, we see that the observer affects the outcome... we see shrondigers poor little boxed cat....
and we can take from these lessons that positive thinking helps positive manifestations of outcome...
this really is simple 2+2=4 type formula...

It is also not dealing with the hardcore mathmatics of Quantum Mechanics
but the more abstract connections of quantum field action...

and Johnmike... I get ya... thanks for the clarifications...

I was referring to the light particle-wave test... and the observers (camera) affect upon the patterns of particle vs wave...


[edit on 22-8-2006 by LazarusTheLong]

Double-slit experiment, you're talking about. What changed the behavior was measuring, which works the way I described. So the observer doesn't affect the outcome, the act of observing does.

[edit on 22-8-2006 by Johnmike]

Originally posted by thelibra
Okay, I'm seeing logic and reason used here. A very good sign that means maybe I'm making progress.

Thanks. I try.

In answer to your question, you may want to see my microwave food analogy, however, I'll re-iterate for your benefit because you honestly seem to be trying to understand and accept a middle ground.

Saw it. It made perfect sense. All I ever want to do is to understand. Don't we all?

However, Quantum Physics isn't a physical tool, it isn't a belief system, it isn't a place, or a state of mind. It's a still-developing field of math and symbology to represent a standard of that which is observed or theoretical differences from normal physics on the very micro or very macro scale.

I wouldn't dream of equating it to a religious/spiritual faith. I realize that it is Mathematics and a Physical science.

That doesn't mean "Energy Vampires" will now be explained, nor does it mean that people can grab ahold of Quantum Physics and use it to shoot bad guys or zap Good Things into reality.

It's much more dull than that. It's more like "gravity between fragments of leptops exhibits a scale that is completely out of synch with that of objects on Earth, around Earth, the Galaxy, etc, and here's a formula that might help to compensate for it until we know exactly why that is the case."

Understood. I'd like to make it clear that when I think of the Paranormal, I don't automatically think of "faith", "religion", "God". I think of it in terms of dimensions coliding, space/time warp, electrical charges, The brain misfiring, chemical reactions, etc. etc. etc. It could be any number of theories already present in the Scientific community, or a theory that has yet to be thought of.
I also like to keep an open mind that if there is a God, and if this God is responsible for creating this Universe/reality, it would not have to be done through "Majic", but rather through the processes that we may already be slightly familiar with. Who knows?

That's it. Throw out all the ideas of glowing balls of plasma, laser beams, psychics, and reincarnation. While they may, some day, be able to be described in terms of energy micro and macro transactions and mathematical equations, that still wouldn't make Quantum Physics ABOUT the paranormal. It just means that the paranormal might be able to finally be described in terms of Quantum Mechanics.

Agreed. Quantum Physics is not ABOUT the paranormal. I accept that. I wouldn't want to claimed that it was. My argument was that Quantum Physics may hold some answers/explanations now or years from now regarding these things which we currently call "Paranormal", although that is not what QP researchers and scientists are working toward at this moment. Maybe one day they might accidentally arrive at an answer regarding this question, like accidentally dropping strawberry jelly on top of peanutbutter. Happy accident.

Do you see why I'm so vehement on the subject yet? It's not that I don't believe in the other stuff, it's that a horrible breach of semantics has diminished the value of both ideas.

Absolutely. I understand. I was trying to come up with a supporting analogy, but it was too long. I decided to spare you the time instead.

And so, we escaped the nukes today. You people are a tough crowd.

Thank you, Lazarusthelong, for your common sense and your help in attempting to explain what i never thought would turn into a war.

I sure know how to make waves, dont i???

On to the next battle. For my next thread, i'd like to talk about how African-American midgets are secretly planning to get rid of 5 billion people in one day.

See you then.

Because you ignorantly tried to push a term as something it's not. It's one thing to be wrong, it's another to b- and moan about it after being corrected. Well-meaning thread, but don't be immature please.



i also cannot type

[edit on 22-8-2006 by Johnmike]

Originally posted by Johnmike
Because you ignorantly tried to push a term as something it's not. It's one thing to be wrong, it's another to b- and moan about it after being corrected. Well-meaning thread, but don't be immature please.



i also cannot type

[edit on 22-8-2006 by Johnmike]

What's that, JACK??? Careful how you talk to me...ok??? I'm not in the mood at the moment to put up with those silly snyde remarks. Immature????
Get off my back- now.

Thank you, sir.

I think we all owe dgtempe a debt of gratitude for HER brand of quantum physics and positive attitude for saving the planet.

I personally will continue to think positive thoughts for I feel confident that the one's of us that thought positively made a difference. The rough places are behind us now.

Have a nice day!!!

Thank You dgtempe for a job well done!!!

I for one, will follow the path with all the signs that say "free beer this way"

Hey DG, they brought waaay more beer than we need! Looks like the worst thing that happened today happened in this topic.
I'm still thinking positive, but I'm starting to catch a buzz so I should log off and go join the party.

Stay cool DG!
See Ya!

P.S. I think quantum physics is happening in my beer... I'll start a new topic about it. Maybe not.

Originally posted by whaaa
I think we all owe dgtempe a debt of gratitude for HER brand of quantum physics and positive attitude for saving the planet.

I personally will continue to think positive thoughts for I feel confident that the one's of us that thought positively made a difference. The rough places are behind us now.

Have a nice day!!!

Thank You dgtempe for a job well done!!!

I agree 100%! Thank you dgtempe, you have motivated me to continue my work on this, and to keep up the positive vibes. You inspired some of us, which I think you know, and that's what counts. We got past some rough spots, and we'll get past some more!



Nite

[edit on 8/22/06 by niteboy82]

Originally posted by Johnmike
I'm simply explaining confusion about what Quantum Physics truly is, since some people are a bit confused. No arguing, not to worry.

Also, you mention the "if observed it will change" idea. Lazarus, you're applying it to something it isn't meant to be.

What this principle means is that if you measure something (in the context of the quantum-sized world for the most part) it will have changed. This is a huge issue when measuring the position of electrons, photons, things like that. To measure something, it must be hit with something that will bounced off (usually), like sonar in a way. Your eyes work this way, light bounces off of a wall and into your eyes. But! What if the particle you're measuring is a single particle by itself, and that's all your focus is? When hit by a photon (or electron, since electrons are smaller they're used in electron microscopes and the like) the particle is being HIT. This is a COLLISION. During this collision the particle being measured (hit) is going to move a bit (or a lot) because you just slammed another particle into it.

That's where that idea comes from. It has nothing to do with the truthfulness of laws or anything.

[edit on 22-8-2006 by Johnmike]

You have voted Johnmike for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Johnmike if you were standing in front of me I'd shake your hand. Thank you for being the first to clarify a point that was never adequately explained and that I'd completley overlooked. You have my first and only WATS awarded this month.

Thank you, guys. I really appreciate you. And you're right...the worse part about August 22 was this miserable thread.

The next one will be a doozy. You can always count on me for entertainment.

I love you, and you know who YOU are. The rest....

Onto the next battle.

Originally posted by dgtempe


Thank you, guys. I really appreciate you. And you're right...the worse part about August 22 was this miserable thread.

The next one will be a doozy. You can always count on me for entertainment.

I love you, and you know who YOU are. The rest....

Onto the next battle.

Dgtempe, I am appalled by your response to this thread, after everything that was accomplished. Not only did a few people become educated on what Quantum Physics REALLY means, but even the ones that didn't still gave positive thoughts towards your cause, and appreciated the sentiment even when they didn't agree. And even those hard core (myself included) who felt the need to argue in the face of ignorance, we STILL gave credit to what was a good idea, which was to think positive thoughts.

But you read NONE of that. You never once gave any credit to anything but your own self-martyred ignorance. You didn't want people to think positive thoughts at all, or you would have been reading the bright side of what you DID accomplish with this thread, which is to say a few new friends made, a few people better for the reading, a few people smarter for the reading, and a lot of people thinking positive thoughts.

And you don't appreciate any of that in the slightest.

You last post is that of a selfish, ignorant drama queen. That or a damned Discordian playing the part to a tee from the very beginning. Either way, until you prove differently, I'm considering you a troll. Good day.

TheLibra-

Back off, and good night.

Happy thoughts to all.

Libra, I'm flattered.

and just a tiny bit scared



Dgtempe... okay.

We've established you're ignorant, great, no one's place to yell at you for that. But stop being an immature child. Seriously. You don't even know what quantum physics is, then you make a thread about it in the paranormal forum about something completely unrelated to science or anything quantum.

Stop imposing your ignorance on others.

If you feel the need to scoff at, make fun of, or ridicule a member because he made a post or started a thread that you don't agree with, or that you think is stupid, crazy, too out there or ridiculous. Do not post anything. -- Please review this link

[edit on 22-8-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]

I for one am grateful for the explanations of QP, QM and all the other scientific/physics,topics covered in this thread. I am woefully ingnorant of most things in the hard sciences.

What I didn't appreciate however was the arrogant, patronizing manner in which it was presented.

It's perfectly acceptable to be proud of your education and knowledge, but using same to make others feel stupid or "less than" shows a considerable lack of tact and class.

You don't win converts to the scientific method by insulting people and that's what happened in many cases in this thread. Actually what happens when people with
valid knowledge and information dispense it with rudeness; it loses its value and is rejected as BS.

I was nice about it.