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Venezuelan President Accuses Israel of "New Holocaust"

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posted on Aug, 20 2006 @ 10:05 PM
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Originally posted by Stormrider
During the month-long war between Israel and Hezbollah ( and let's be clear, they were only in Lebanon because of these terrorists)The IDF continually and consistently dropped tons of leaflets over attack areas, pre-strike, advising of the coming bombing and telling them to leave; it's not Israel's fault that they did not.
Genocide? I don't think so.


So what you are saying Stormrider, is that if the NAZIs in World War two Europe ran loudspeakers through the streets, over the skies, ANd dropped leaflets, what they would have done would not be considered genocide or a holocaust? Even considering that they would destroy every airfield, block the coasts from any traffic, destroy all road leading out of the country, and destroy many major roads leading out of towns and cities? IF the NAZIS would have done that then what they did would not be considered genocide?

We should really spread the word, now any country in the world can tell the people who they are murdering to leave, but block and destroy any and every method they have of leaving the country so that genocide will never officialy be carried out again. After all everyone was warned?!

Perhaps we should investigate post WW2 era european and soviet history books and news articles to find out if they warned the countries ahead of time. We have to be as accurate as possible when it comes to history, it would not be very PC if we have been alleging the NAZIS committed or attempted to commit genocide for more than half a century if their victims were sufficiently warned.

I just wanted to point out the irellevance of trying to use that as an excuse to drop the word genocide to describe an event.

Hey Skinheads and KKK are allowed to preach their hate in this country as well as certain Jewish terrorist groups. I do not see why the leader of a nation is not allowed the freedom to express his opinions and the respect to choose how he wants to lead his country. These nations have not actually invaded any countries or gone to war for several decades, a much better track record than either Israel or America and even some European nations have been able to hold.

they respond now defensivley to the taunting and intimidation of the current instigators of war and despair. I figure they have the right to say what they wish, so long as they are not instigating the first attacks of a war.

And before we go about as citing Iran funding Hezbollah, please let us not forget what was uncovered only two months ago in the horn of Africa. America Funds Somali Terrorist Warlords

you know, CIA planes were flying into Mogadishu with over $100,000 cash shipments on a monthly basis, an act which was even stated by the interim Prime minister of the officially UN backed government of the Sovereign nation of Somalia. The very same warlords who killed American soldiers in 1993 during the Black Hawk Down incident who were also responsible for extorting money at checkpoints on citizens in the streets. Randomly kidnapping and raping young girls even breaking into their homes to do so, the very acts Sadaams sons were also guilty of. The same warlords who were responsible for the highest rates of piracy on the seas on Earth off the Somali coast? the same warlords who would steal all of the UN food aid shipments and hand out rations according to their will during the famines in the early nineties.

I suppose that was completely excusable however because they were fighting "Islamic jihadi terrorist radical facists"? Yea sure, the innocent girls, innocent robbed civilians were also terrorists I am positive. just so you know, the Islamic Courts Union have actually united Mogadishu and restored a semblance of calm and peace in much of Southern Somalia, as well as recently bringing piracy on the waters towards its end.

Thats is why noone has the right to complain about Iran funding Hezbollah, especially considering that Hezbollah is actually giving Lebanese citizens money for a years rent and refurnishing their homes for those who lost them to Israeli attacks.

While he visited, Hezbollah's operatives were still handing out bundles of $100 bills to people who lost homes to Israeli bombs — $12,000 for each claimant. The stipend is to pay a year's rent and refurnish homes.

Fourth paragraph up from end of article




posted on Aug, 20 2006 @ 11:06 PM
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Originally posted by DYepes

Originally posted by pavil
and actually succeed in order for the charge of genocide or holocaust to stick.


Well than if the perp must succeed, than the Holocaust was neither genocide or a holocaust, because as we can see the Jewish people are still alive and stronger than ever today. So no, you don't have to successfully wipe out all of them. Genocide refers to the intent and action of, not the completion or how many.
......


Nice chop of my quote to make it sound other than my intent. Re-read the bold parts to see what I was saying.




You got the definition right. Israel however would have to systematically and consistently bomb, kill, maim, rape ect ALL or at least a MAJORITY of a group, ie Palestinians or Lebanese and actually succeed in order for the charge of genocide or holocaust to stick.


Here is an example of what genocide does in a nation:



On the most optimistic estimates, there are perhaps 20,000 Jews left in Poland today - out of a pre-World War II population of 3m.
news.bbc.co.uk...

You have not proved Israel's intent or actions constitute genocide. While Israels treatment of Palestinians is not great by any stretch, it still is not genocide. If they were systematically and consistently killing large groups of Palestinians and rounding up, men, women and children and sterilizing and putting them to work in works camps till they died then yes, that would be genocide. You show me a comparable statistic to the one above and then you can claim Genocide.
Looking at the population of Palestinians (conservative estimates) in the West Bank and Gaza alone 2.4M and 1.4M, not even counting Palestinians living elsewhere for whatever reason, the claim of genocide is weak at best.



posted on Aug, 20 2006 @ 11:15 PM
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Originally posted by DYepes

Originally posted by pavil
and actually succeed in order for the charge of genocide or holocaust to stick.


Well than if the perp must succeed, than the Holocaust was neither genocide or a holocaust, because as we can see the Jewish people are still alive and stronger than ever today. So no, you don't have to successfully wipe out all of them. Genocide refers to the intent and action of, not the completion or how many.
......

No you don't have to wipe out "all of them". Just have to try doing so to the majority of them in a systematic campaign of extermination and explusion. The majority of Jewish and Gypsy people in WWII were subjected to genocide. Darfur is subject to an ongoing campaign of genocide and the world wrings it's hands. Bosnia's Muslims were subjected to genocide and the world did too little to late. Let's not forget what occurred in Rwanda and what the world did to stop it 800,000 people died in 100 days....8,000 people a day dying in a country.

Nice chop of my quote to make it sound other than my intent. Re-read the bold parts to see what I was saying.




You got the definition right. Israel however would have to systematically and consistently bomb, kill, maim, rape ect ALL or at least a MAJORITY of a group, ie Palestinians or Lebanese and actually succeed in order for the charge of genocide or holocaust to stick.


Here is an example of what genocide does in a nation:



On the most optimistic estimates, there are perhaps 20,000 Jews left in Poland today - out of a pre-World War II population of 3m.
news.bbc.co.uk...

You have not proved Israel's intent or actions constitute genocide. While Israels treatment of Palestinians is not great by any stretch, it still is not genocide. If they were systematically and consistently killing large groups of Palestinians and rounding up, men, women and children and sterilizing and putting them to work in works camps till they died then yes, that would be genocide. You show me a comparable statistic to the one above and then you can claim Genocide.
Looking at the population of Palestinians (conservative estimates) in the West Bank and Gaza alone 2.4M and 1.4M, not even counting Palestinians living elsewhere for whatever reason, the claim of genocide is weak at best.

[edit on 20-8-2006 by pavil]

[edit on 20-8-2006 by pavil]



posted on Aug, 21 2006 @ 12:07 AM
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Originally posted by DYepes

Originally posted by Stormrider
During the month-long war between Israel and Hezbollah ( and let's be clear, they were only in Lebanon because of these terrorists)The IDF continually and consistently dropped tons of leaflets over attack areas, pre-strike, advising of the coming bombing and telling them to leave; it's not Israel's fault that they did not.
Genocide? I don't think so.


So what you are saying Stormrider, is that if the NAZIs in World War two Europe ran loudspeakers through the streets, over the skies, ANd dropped leaflets, what they would have done would not be considered genocide or a holocaust? Even considering that they would destroy every airfield, block the coasts from any traffic, destroy all road leading out of the country, and destroy many major roads leading out of towns and cities? IF the NAZIS would have done that then what they did would not be considered genocide?


DYepes, you really should try to control your emotions, just a bit; this is a discussion board, and while we are discussing a politically charged issue, there is no need to be rude. You are entitled to your opinions as I am to mine. Isn't it wonderful that we can do that?

In regard to your comparison, between the Israeli shelling of Hezbollah rocket launchers in heavily populated areas and what the Nazis did to the Jews during WWII, It's not accurate. The Nazis were looking to erase an entire RACE of people from the earth, not a select group of people within a larger group, eg.,Hezbollah terrorists operating as a power unto themselves within a sovereign country, ie., Lebanon. It was the opinion of political and military people, in-the-know from a broad spectrum of countries, that Hezbollah was setting up their launchers in heavily populated areas, purposely and with little regard for the fate of those they cowered behind. This is also my opinion but again it is only an opinion; I make no claim to have the absolute truth regarding the matter, only what I have been able to surmise through study of the subject and what news and analysis I can find.

As far as genocide is concerned, let me ask you a question: was the US guilty of genocide when it bombed Dresden, Germany during WWII? The intent and result was to eliminate Nazi armament and plane factories but several thousand innocent germans were killed as well. Was that genocide? What about Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Hundreds of thousands died, was it genocide because they were all Japanese?


Perhaps we should investigate post WW2 era european and soviet history books and news articles to find out if they warned the countries ahead of time. We have to be as accurate as possible when it comes to history, it would not be very PC if we have been alleging the NAZIS committed or attempted to commit genocide for more than half a century if their victims were sufficiently warned.

Indeed. Thus my observations and questions above.


I just wanted to point out the irellevance of trying to use that as an excuse to drop the word genocide to describe an event.

Yiu can use whatever word or words you want to describe the event; as can I. I don't believe that what happened in Lebanon justifies the use of the word genocide.
However, the intentional murder of thousand of Kurds in Iraq by Saddam Hussein would definitely qualify, don't you think?


Hey Skinheads and KKK are allowed to preach their hate in this country as well as certain Jewish terrorist groups. I do not see why the leader of a nation is not allowed the freedom to express his opinions and the respect to choose how he wants to lead his country. These nations have not actually invaded any countries or gone to war for several decades, a much better track record than either Israel or America and even some European nations have been able to hold.


Who am I to say what he can or can not do; he can do what he wants, but I don't have to like it or condone it. Iran was at war for several years with Iraq and that fighting ended only twenty years ago. Iranians are still fighting in Iraq, as far as I can tell. While Iran has not invaded any countries, lately anyway, they have threatened to do so and make no bones of their desire to see the entire state of Israel erased from the face of the planet and all the Jews with it. Now, that...THAT would be genocide. IMO.



posted on Aug, 21 2006 @ 01:10 AM
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Boy, it sure seems like everybody has a different idea as to what acts should be classified as "genocide".

So here is the United Nations 8 stages that define the act of "GENOCIDE".

U.N's Stages of Genocide

At the top of this page there is a "Table of Contents", go down to, #7) "Stages of Genicide and Efforts to Prevent It".

I hope you went to the link and read the "Stages of Genocide" now before the word "genocide" is used in this thread again against Isreal..

I don't see how anybody can say that Isreal was trying to commit "GENOCIDE" now against theLebanese people after they have read the UN's "Stages of Genocide". This is the criteria it takes for the U.N.'s to catarogize an act as "genocide".

If it wasn't for this criteria the UN has defined to be catagorized as "genocide", every war that has civillian casualties might be called "genocide".

Every war between 2 countries WILL have civillian casualties.
Especially when the combatants hide or run their operations in civillian neighborhoods.



[edit on 21/8/06 by Keyhole]



posted on Aug, 21 2006 @ 03:35 AM
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Originally posted by Keyhole
I hope you went to the link and read the "Stages of Genocide" now before the word "genocide" is used in this thread again against Isreal..

I don't see how anybody can say that Isreal was trying to commit "GENOCIDE" now against theLebanese people after they have read the UN's "Stages of Genocide". This is the criteria it takes for the U.N.'s to catarogize an act as "genocide".

Err, because Chavez was refering to the Palestinians.



posted on Aug, 21 2006 @ 07:09 AM
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Originally posted by Xfile
While israels actions in both lebanon and the west bank could be described as wanton disregard 4 civilians or even murder it falls below the genocide watermark.As 4 chavez and iran's president they have 3 things in common.1.they are both certifiable.


Please provide us with multiple qualified, professional, psychiatric evaluations for both people detailing their insanity and the nature of their psychosis.

If you can't, then please stop referring to them as being certifiable. They may be nuts in your opinion but unless you qualify your statement that way you are actually spreading a falsehood.

Just because someone does not agree with your views, it does not mean they are mad.

[edit on 21-8-2006 by neformore]

[edit on 21-8-2006 by neformore]



posted on Aug, 21 2006 @ 08:03 AM
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Then let's look at the Eight Stages from your source:
Classification [Jews/Rest of them.]
Symbolization
Dehumanization [Arabs are all terrorists.]
Organization [Mossad, IDF, etc.]
Polarization [Israeli Media pushes hate propaganda.]
Identification [Seperated on the basis of ethnicity and religion.]
Extermination [The bombing of civilian targets to kill the minority terrorists.]
Denial [Common as sin. We just wanted to hit the terrorists, the rest is collateral damage.]

Except for the Symbolization, which I do believe does exist on a small scale. They fit 7 out of the 8 stages. By your own list they've been committing it.



posted on Aug, 21 2006 @ 08:31 AM
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Israel has supported many of the right-wing dictators propped up in South and Central America by CIA and SOA. They traded arms with Guatamala when officers were publishing tracts on nazism praising Hitler because that Guatamalan dictator colluded with American economic interests. Wherein the people don't benefit from profits of the sales of the countries natural resources.

For a South American to equate Israel with Nazism is not so outlandish considering Israel's history as allies to America's economic empire. The brutal military policies that have warred on benevolent socialist dictatorships in South America and replaced them with malevolent dictatorships that perpetuate an antiquated and barbaric status quo - are easily interpreted by a Venezualen as nazism.

[edit on 21-8-2006 by clearwater]



posted on Aug, 21 2006 @ 09:11 AM
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Everyone seems to have ignored the Arab on Arab part of the strife of the 'Palestinians'.


The Jordanians were certainly a LOT harder on the 'Palestinians' than the Israelis. No one said anything about 'genocide'. The Jordanians basically cleaned their country of the 'Palestinians' which most everyone agrees is the refuse of the Arab world.

No one wants them because of the disruptive nature of THEIR activities everywhere they go...

Besides... it's a lot more propaganda value for the Arabs to keep them in their PERPETUAL refugee status as your basic cannon fodder and the raw materials of human suicide bombers...

then to convert them to useful citizens of this world... with something meaningful/constructive to contribute... besides hate, hate and more hate.

Chavez is a predator. His primary allegiance is strictly to himself. He is using your basic 1-2-3 manual of all tin dictators just to secure his position in power... playing to the gullibility of his own people...

Aligning himself with all of the other despots of the world.

He is a blantant hypocrite.



posted on Aug, 21 2006 @ 10:03 AM
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Originally posted by golemina
The Jordanians were certainly a LOT harder on the 'Palestinians' than the Israelis. No one said anything about 'genocide'. The Jordanians basically cleaned their country of the 'Palestinians' which most everyone agrees is the refuse of the Arab world.


The times have changed and new lines are being drawn.

Abul Ragheb: 43% of Jordanians are of Palestinian origin


King Abdullah and the future of Jordanians of Palestinian origin
Jordan, Politics,

10/18/1999

In a written lecture he delivered on Saturday at the political sciences faculty at the US Harvard University and published by the Jordanian dailies on Sunday, King Abdullah said the "majority of the Palestinian refugees, who are residents in Jordan will choose to stay in Jordan. This matter is left to them, and it is their own choice to decide."

The Jordanian king added that "we" consider the refugees in Jordan as Jordanian citizens.

"We believe that Jordan has settled those refugees and we want them to stay in the country where they lived for long years. The Jordanian stand is with the right for the return back. However, it is the Palestinians, residents in our country, who are to decide on that," he said.

---------------------------

Phase II could evolve into a massive genocidal blood bath as Israel takes the war into symetrical mode and carpet bombs Lebanon, then Chavez would carry more weight.

Wait and see, cause:

Israeli foreign minister says war not over yet



[edit on 21-8-2006 by Regenmacher]



posted on Aug, 21 2006 @ 11:02 AM
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Im suprised that the media is giving him the light of day


Chavez is just trying to get attention and trying to make his people think that they are a target, "its us against the world". Unlike Iran and North Korea, we tend not to loose sleep with what he says and does.

Plus, his idea of scaring us by waving the oil card? we don't need the oil as much as the money he needs in return.



posted on Aug, 21 2006 @ 11:26 AM
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Originally posted by Keyhole
The part of Chavez's statement that just blows me away is that he calls what the Israelies are doing is "GENOCIDE" and creating a "NEW HOLOCAUST".

I just can't see how he can even compare this to what the Nazi's did in WWII.

It's just insane to compare these as the same. It just goes to show how much Chavez is (in my opinion) under the influence of Iran (probably just because he hates the US so much).

I think the man is as much a kook as Iran's president.



[edit on 19/8/06 by Keyhole]


Why does everyone refer to WWII when someone mentions a genocide ... did you forget Rwanda, Ethiopia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Koerdistan, Tibet, ... it's like you people see holocaust as a synoniem for events in WWII. Listen, open a dictionary and loop up "holocaust" it's the mass murdering of a certain ethnic group, so uhm, isn't that what's going in in the middle east ... with their so-called smart-bombs, precision bombardements, ... and they still hit buildings where there's more then 30 children are sheltering ... imagine what massacre's didn't reach the world news ... this is according to the definition a genocide, at least it's the beginning ... it's a silent and slow holocaust ... look at the Isrealian history sinds it was "founded" wel, wince they started stealing the land from the rightful owners, the Palestinians ... these Palestionans are now denied of all their rights and treated as a lower form of life. You think I'm overreacting, well, go over there and look for yourself ... they're are systematically removed ... of course that's how you create terrorists ...it's not a reason for terrorism, but it's an explanation ...



posted on Aug, 21 2006 @ 11:32 AM
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Originally posted by infinite
Im suprised that the media is giving him the light of day


Chavez is just trying to get attention and trying to make his people think that they are a target, "its us against the world". Unlike Iran and North Korea, we tend not to loose sleep with what he says and does.

Plus, his idea of scaring us by waving the oil card? we don't need the oil as much as the money he needs in return.


What are you saying? This president was democrativally chsen by it's people, elections were monitored by the UN and was proven right. Yet still, the CIA did an attempt for a coupe d'état. You think that is a right ting to do? He s the president of the country en HE is allowed to say what they're going to do with their oil, by the way, they have 8 times as much oil as Saoudi Arabia. The US just doesn't want Chavez to sell cheap oil to other countries, that way, the US oil-companies will make less profit ... that's the only reason ... why do you think they had to capture Iraq? Right, Sadam was selling oil at low prices ... too low prices. So, the World-Police (US) came in and told them what to do. I know, now you go telling, but he was an evil mlan blabla ... yes, he was evil ... just like 200 other leaders in the world ... including Bush.



posted on Aug, 21 2006 @ 11:44 AM
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Does the magic 6 million have to be surpassed in order to be a holocaust?

It seems that a few people here do.



posted on Aug, 21 2006 @ 11:46 AM
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And from reading what i wrote, i made no claim or reference to Chavez "being evil" and im certainly not going to either. Did i make reference to a coup or claims he should be removed from office?ermm...no. i made no reference to elections in Venezuela and i think its very funny that my words have been twisted and you replyed with an anti-bush rant


*yawns*



posted on Aug, 21 2006 @ 12:02 PM
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Israel's policy is to try to destroy the Palestinian people and it always has been. They've spent 50 years murdering the Palestinians. How can that NOT be genocide?
They would also love to destroy South Lebanon so they can take it over.

Chavez doesn't like the U.S. govt and he thinks they are a dangerous hegemony. He has many times said he has no problem with the American People, it's our government.

As usual, Hugo is right on the mark, so the U.S. govt spreads lies and propaganda to try to discredit him as a looney. Mr. Chavez has done amazing things for the poor and middle class of Venezuela, do some research, you'll see that he has been popularly elected 6 times, the elections are absolutely honest and were monitored by many countries. When the U.S. tried to overthrow him, it was the People who protested and brought him back, all in just 3 days.



posted on Aug, 21 2006 @ 12:11 PM
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Of course the israelies know all about the definition of genocide - so they will go out of there way to make sure that how they systematically slaughter there neighbour cannot be classified as that - they read the book (and ofc help write it) so they know the ways around it - targeted strikes against *terrorists*

warning of anyone using a car anywhere will be blown up - things like that.

They are using terrorist actions themselves - and chemical weapons (WMD`s) on a widescale useage - just like the USA did in fullajah ; yes the usa might not have signed the documents to say that WP is a chemical weapon , but that doesn`t stop teh civilised world saying it is.


But i digress - this IS a new holocaust , and all the judeo-facists will jump up and down and scream blue murder how they have been wronged etc etc


rubbish.



posted on Aug, 21 2006 @ 12:33 PM
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the term genocide is not appropriate for the description of the inhumane killing of Lebanese civilians.


The meaning of the word Genocide


More appropriate would be what the Israelis have done to the Palestinians.

Yugoslavia and the Serbs.

Rwanda.

The Venezuelan leader chavez did not say,"the Holocaust did not happen", It was in fact said by an Iranian leader (I think it was their President but i am unsure)

[edit on 21-8-2006 by marcopolo]



posted on Aug, 21 2006 @ 01:45 PM
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Originally posted by Odium
Then let's look at the Eight Stages from your source:
Classification [Jews/Rest of them.]


Is there a source that says this is how Israel thinks? How did you come by this information?


Dehumanization [Arabs are all terrorists.]


And where is your source for this statement? Israel has signed peace treaties with various Arab states (i.e., Egypt, Jordan).

And if Israel thinks Arabs are all terrorists, (according to your statement), why would they let Arabs live in their country?

Arab Citizens of Israel

Israeli Arabs comprise around 15% of the country's total number of citizens (19.5% when East Jerusalem residents are included).[1] They call themselves or have been called "Israeli Arabs", "Arab citizens of Israel",[2][3][4] "Arab Israelis"[5] and "Palestinian Arabs in Israel".



Organization [Mossad, IDF, etc.]


Mossad Wikipedia - Mossadis the equivalent to the USA' CIA, every country has an organization for intelligence. The IDF is Israel's armed forces. Every country has armed forces.


Polarization [Israeli Media pushes hate propaganda.]


I am sure they do about the people who are always lobbing rockets at them or carrying out suicide bombings that are aimed at civillians. If it was you the rockets and suicide bombings were aimed at I'm sure you would be saying some hateful things to say about those people also. Israel has never said it wanted to commit the act of genocide against anybody.


Identification [Seperated on the basis of ethnicity and religion.]


Is there a source that explains how Israel seperates people of ethnicity and religion? Because Israel has other ethnic peoples living in there country with other religions and I haven't heard of them being singled out or osterized.


Extermination [The bombing of civilian targets to kill the minority terrorists.]
Denial [Common as sin. We just wanted to hit the terrorists, the rest is collateral damage.]


Genocide Watch

EXTERMINATION begins, and quickly becomes the mass killing legally called “genocide.” It is “extermination” to the killers because they do not believe their victims to be fully human. When it is sponsored by the state, the armed forces often work with militias to do the killing. Sometimes the genocide results in revenge killings by groups against each other, creating the downward whirlpool-like cycle of bilateral genocide (as in Burundi). At this stage, only rapid and overwhelming armed intervention can stop genocide.


Israel obviously feel their victims are human. they have been dropping fliers for years trying to tell people that some sort of military action is fixing to take place, so please leave this area. I think that shows that they believe there foes are fully human and that they are trying only to target militants. I don't recall the above quote ever being commited by Israel.


Except for the Symbolization, which I do believe does exist on a small scale. They fit 7 out of the 8 stages. By your own list they've been committing it.


Maybe, if you can provide SOURCES for your quotes.



[edit on 21/8/06 by Keyhole]



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