Yugo AK-47

I served in army five years ago. Later I entered police academy, and also had rifle marskmanship training with AK rifles (Yugo version only). We were using standard FMJ ammo, made in ex-Yu. It's considered to be high quality ammo - it is reliable and VERY accurate. And I've been talking to my friend, who is sniper instructor in croatian army NCO school. I've told him about getting semi-auto Romanian AK for 300$ and Yugo for 400$. Well, he told me he wouldn't buy Romak even if it costed 30$. I trust his judgement - he's been using allmoast all types of rifles present in my country up to date, and those were really numerous (all sorts of AK's - 7,62 and 5,45, H&K G3, FN FAL, M-16A1 and A2, FAMAS.........).

Northwolf, I agree with you abot SAKO rifle, I've read about it. I have high respect for rifles made in Finland. I've shot SAKO TRG-41 sniper in .338 Lapua Magnum, with original Lapua ammo. To me, TRG series snipers are the best in the world!

Originally posted by Duby78
I served in army five years ago. Later I entered police academy, and also had rifle marskmanship training with AK rifles (Yugo version only). We were using standard FMJ ammo, made in ex-Yu. It's considered to be high quality ammo - it is reliable and VERY accurate. And I've been talking to my friend, who is sniper instructor in croatian army NCO school. I've told him about getting semi-auto Romanian AK for 300$ and Yugo for 400$. Well, he told me he wouldn't buy Romak even if it costed 30$. I trust his judgement - he's been using allmoast all types of rifles present in my country up to date, and those were really numerous (all sorts of AK's - 7,62 and 5,45, H&K G3, FN FAL, M-16A1 and A2, FAMAS.........).

Northwolf, I agree with you abot SAKO rifle, I've read about it. I have high respect for rifles made in Finland. I've shot SAKO TRG-41 sniper in .338 Lapua Magnum, with original Lapua ammo. To me, TRG series snipers are the best in the world!

The Yugo I saw had a pistol grip handel like the Romak. It looked almost exactly the same. The Polish AK I saw also had a pistol grip handel. They all looked the same, I guess the diference is on the inside. Maby we just can't get good AK's here in the U.S.

What country are you from?

I did a little research on these newer Romak rifles, made for civilian use. It's only a slight redesign. It has forward grip removed, and different pistol grip. Barrel is the same... and that would trouble me the most.

I live in Croatia. Yugo AK is being produced in Serbia.


a little off-topic, here is new croatian assault rifle, that will soon be field tested.

Croatian assault rifle

and HS2000/Springfield Armory XD pistol

XD

Originally posted by Duby78



a little off-topic, here is new croatian assault rifle, that will soon be field tested.

Croatian assault rifle

Croatian Looks like an Israeli Tavor TAR 21 to me

www.israel-weapon.com...[BE33B6E6-080B-45B8-AD85-C4E1E40D0422]

[edit on 20-8-2006 by warpboost]

No, it's not Tavor. Its design looks similiar, but mechanism is completely different. And it was dubbed VHS - what a stupid name!

This new Croatian rifle, named VHS, was recently presented on iKA, an annual innovation display in Karlovac, Croatia.
Externally, it may look like a fuse of Tavor, Tavor 2 and FAMAS, but internally, there's a different story; when fired, gun powder gasses push the bolt backward via piston, that much is the same as in almost all assault rifles. However, the unique feature of this gun is that it has additional gas vent that leads some of the gases into a chamber located BEHIND the bolt. As the bolt moves backward, it's gradually slowed down and then softly stopped by a gas cushion, rather then coming into an abrupt stop as it reaches it's most backward position, causing recoil. This feature makes VHS, well, not recoilless, but very low recoil and easy to fire.
Some other features of the VHS rifle are the following; length 750mm, width 448mm, height 255mm. Barrel length 500mm(!) Calibre 5,56X45mm NATO
Cyclic rate of fire- 600rpm, single/auto/safe fire selector
Weight (without flash light, grenade launcher, bayonet or magazine)- only 2,3kg(!)
Pistol grip placed in weapon's center point, making it possible to fire with one hand.
Integral bipod that folds entirely into a serration in the grip.
Dove tail mount located under the barrel, infront of the pistol grip- for mounting flash light, laser or IC light.
Easy mounting 40mm underbarrel grenade launcher- when lower part of the front grip is removed, the GL mounts on the gun in the same manner as the bayonet.
Any kind of optical sight can be mounted ontop of a carry handle, which is also equipped with iron sight that shooter uses with both eyes open- apparently, this feature is common in some hunting rifles...I'd appreciate any additional info on that. (I'm familiar with military rifles, but know next to nothing about hunting rifles or shotguns...)
The VHS is developed by HS Produkt, the same factory that makes HS2000/ Springfield XD pistols. It's been thoroughly tested by HS Product team and presented as finished product, not prototype. It's currently undergoing testing by Croatian army. Rumour has it it's even been offered to US army...
Possible date of adaptation by Croatian army- some say Croatian contingent of MPs in Afghanistan will be equipped with VHS soon, other sources say the earliest VHS can be adopted is 2008...

Source

[edit on 21-8-2006 by Duby78]

Originally posted by Duby78
I did a little research on these newer Romak rifles, made for civilian use. It's only a slight redesign. It has forward grip removed, and different pistol grip. Barrel is the same... and that would trouble me the most.

Well, are these newer exports a little better than the ones they issued to you in the military.

I've never handeled civilian version, so I can't be absolutely sure if it's any better then army model.

Standard army model - this one is exactly the same like one I had in army

Somewhat newer version

WASR - Civilian, semi-auto version (I think it's latest civilian model)


I'll be honest with you, pal. I've compared multiple photos of civilian variants and the army model. They look and 'feel' exactly SAME (only some details are different - new pistol grip and removal of forward handle).

Well, some of what has been said here is actually close to the truth, other things (like the 7.62x39 having the flattest of trajectory and kicking like a mule) sound like it was pulled from the sky.

I am a long time collector of AKM’s and SKS’s, and to set the record straight the SKS (Simonov System Self-loading Carbine), although an excellent rifle in its own right, is a completely different platform then the AKM. They are similar and Kalashnikov defiantly used a few of the same design features in his rifle but the operating principles are very much different.

In the SKS family only the Russian is considered better quality then the Yugoslavian (AKA the Yugo M59/66) as far as SKS’s are concerned. Oh the Yugo is more “built” then the Russian (i.e. Every part of the gun is milled as opposed to stamped) as Yugo rounds were loaded “hotter” then their Soviet counterparts and the Yugo was designed to shoot rifle grenades off its end, a particularly violent affair on gun metal to be sure. When one disassembles a Yugoslavian SKS for the first time they, if they know anything about these rifles, are astonished at the craftsmanship that went into them.

But the Yugo’s lacked something every other SKS had, Chromed Barrels. This was due to Yugoslavia’s lack of Chrome ore deposits and dicey relations with Russia made trading for Chrome difficult to obtain at best. Now if your not using Surplus ammo (i.e. Corrosive primer ammo) then a chromed barrel is not all that important. And even if you are shooting surplus ammo, as long as you neutralize the corrosive salts that are deposited in the barrel and gas tube with some ammonia (even Windex will work here) soon after shooting it really will not effect the rifle.

Up until recently the Yugoslavian SKS’s could be had for $170.00 in un-issued new condition. They (in this writer’s opinion) were the best deal going in assault rifles. But unfortunately the supply has dried up. But, beware of “Used Surplus” Yugoslavian M59/66’s as corrosive ammo was used throughout the rifles life and has undoubtedly pitted the barrel and gas tube. You better know your stuff before going and buying one of these, as they are a roll of the dice.

Much the same that can be said of the Yugo SKS can also be said about the Yugo AKM. It is a very, very well built weapon. The receiver is a full 1.5mm in thickness (as opposed to the AK standard 1mm) generally speaking a receiver this thick goes on an RPK (a Russian Squad Automatic Weapon) a gun designed to shoot thousands of rounds in a single sitting. Its quality is without question but that quality comes at a price. It’s over 8.5 pounds empty. That’s a very heavy rifle for such a dainty round. And it to lacks a Chromed barrel. Once again not a big deal if the rifle is of new construction but if it was built from a surplus parts kit then it could be a problem. The lack of the standard com-bloc sight attchment on the receiver kinda is a minus though as it limits your abilities to mount the plethora of cheap quality eastern block scopes and Kobra family of Collimator sights, a product that nicely addresses one of the fundamental flaws of the AKM design, poor weapons sights. Overall this rifle is a good deal. Its price will go up without doubt and you should be pleased with your purchase and have it for a long time.

The Romanian AKM’s may not be as well built as a Yugoslav AK but it does have advantages over the Yugo. Its lighter, has a chrome barrel, has a com-block sight attachment and is generally considered to have the best 1mm receiver on the market. The SAR rifles are considered “the best” of the Romanian rifles but in truth they are all about the same. The “civilian” GPWASR10 has all of the features of the SAR but also possess a Tapco G2 trigger group that is superior to the standard Romanian trigger. I have had one of these rifles since it came out and even after 2,000 rounds I has never mis-fired, hang fired, Failed to feed....

...It is true that you should never buy one of these “sight unseen” as they can (although rare) have issues with canted sight blocks and gas tubes. But if you get a good one you will have it for a very, very long time.

All AKM’s however share specific traits. I will attempt to list some of those merits and flaws here.

Pros…
1) Reliability. This design will work in any environment it is designed with loose tolerances and will work even if it gets mud in the mechanism. No assault rifle is as reliable as a Kalshnikov.
2) Ease of use. These are Monkey guns, easy to disassemble and maintain.
3) Cost. Ammo is still pretty cheap.
4) .30 Caliber round hits hard and goes through things like Cars, bullet-proof vests, and small trees.

Cons…
1) Accuracy. This is a 250 yard rifle AT BEST. Realistically about 100-150 yards. Even then your group is going to be large (about 4 inches) but against its intended target (people) it is sufficient. And most gunfights happen within a few feet.
2) Poor ergonomics. The rifle balances a little awkward and the safety requires you to take your finger off of the trigger to disengage it. It also makes a distinctive audible “Clack” when disengaged.
3) Poor sights. The Sights on this gun are only about 18” apart. This makes for a poor sight radius. On most AK’s this can be remedied with a collimator sight of some sort.
4) The round drops like a brick after about 300 yards.

Anyway I hope this helps you guys. If you have any question feel free to ask.








[edit on 22-8-2006 by GPWASR10]

GPWASR10, I agree with you in most points. However, my experience with Romanian AK is different. The rifle issued to me in army looked almoast new (it didn't fire more then 3000 rounds, its wood parts were absolutely undamaged etc), yet I encountered many different jams (you can see some of it in my posts). So did my unit members who had same rifle model. Only thing we liked about it was - barrel that's easy to clean. And speaking of barrel, we've measured the bore with Vernier scale - it showed almoast 7,9 mm (due to wear)!!!

Now, speaking of GPWASR10 model... it has more then a few parts made in US, and I belive it is a decent rifle!

Now, about accuracy... best marksman in my Company had scored 6 hits with 6 (nice group, too!) shots on a 300 meters range, human silhouette target, prone position. Rifle he used was M-70B2 (Yugo AK, wood stock).

So, you're collecting SKS and AK rifles... that makes me curious... wich models do you have?

Well man, what can I say, I have had at least 3,000 rounds through a Romanian SAR-1 with no problems at all. Maybe Cugir ships the good ones to the US ;-). As for the Yugos, yes they are stout rifles and I can hit a 18" plate at 300 yards with one. But the group is not going to be as tight as lets say a Bushmaster AR-15. Like I said, the AK is capable of hitting such a target, but I would out shoot the best guy in your unit with an M4 Carbine. Its not that I am a better shot then he is, but the AKM is just not a “Match” Rifle. Even the Romanian PSL is going to have trouble keeping up with a stock AR-15.

Now you ask how many AK’s and SKS’s I have.......
OK, but do not say I did not warn you....
Romanians...
GPWASR10 (my favorite AK)
SAR-1
SAR-3
WUM-1
ROMAK PSL
And a Romie SKS

Yugo’s...
M-70
SKS M 59/66

Russian...
Tula SKS
Iszmash AKM
Saiga-12 (a 12 gauge AK-47 ;-) )

Chinese...
MAK 90
Norinco SKS

Finland...
Valmet

And a partridge in a pair tree.

And of that list the cheapo WASR10 is my Favorite. So you were in the Romanian Military I take it... that’s kind of cool man. What did you do when you were in?

Thanks for all the info Duby78 and GPWASR10. I suppose the Romak AK's arent the best in the world, but ill give them a try. But how inacurat are the the Romaks? How badly would you miss a human size target at 100 yards? Like just a few inches or 20 feet?



Also, what are your alls opinions on the 75 and 100 drums? Do they work well?

[edit on 22-8-2006 by Full_Auto77]

Is it a ROMAK as in a PSL ROMAK dude? Cause if that is the case then you are getting a designated marksmen rifle. Not some run of the mill AK. My ROMAK PSL (7.62x54R) is money out to about 500 yards. My Romanian AK’s are good out to about 200 yards or so vs. a man sized target. The drums are good but unless you have a full auto they are just a little worthless. Cool looking but worthless.

[edit on 22-8-2006 by GPWASR10]

GPWASR
ROMAK also makes a 7.62x39 AK clone for civilian markets, it's a butt ugly version with the ugliest (colored) stock i've seen, but the internals are good and it's resonably accurate and very reliable.
The designated Marksman rifle isn't really a good one (compared to SVD or bolt guns) but it has decent accuracy for a battle rifle, but that means it's not a sniper rifle..

Well really anyting can be a "Sniper Rifle". Even a 10/22 can be a sniper rifle. The PSL is meant to give a squad a little more distance then what a stadard AK clone will get you. From personal experiance this is about 500 yards, and that is respectable. ROMAK, to my knowledge is not a company (its not even really a rifle but the PSL kinda got that lable here in the 'States and it stuck), I think you guys are thinking ROMARM, which is the Romanian Arms manufacturer that supplies their army and builds AKM clones for civilian use.

At least guns named ROMAK are marketed in Finland too, not only in USA... But the PSL/ROMAK svd wannabe was quite a dissapointment in accuracy tests made by a local gun magazine... clearly inferior to SVDs (that are called Unmarksman rifles in here but it might be just the fact that we expect SAKO accuracy from everyone else too )

Full_Auto77, I wish you good shooting with your new rifle! Yust be carefull not to overheat the barrel too much (because it isn't thick), and evrything will be fine.

GPWASR10, you've got quite a collection ! And I must agree wit you - AK's accuracy is no match to M4, or any modern assault weapon.

Northwolf, your criteria is pretty harsh if you're comparing other rifles with SAKO
Are you police officer or an army pro, by chance? I find your knowlege considering guns quite respectable

Originally posted by northwolf
At least guns named ROMAK are marketed in Finland too, not only in USA... But the PSL/ROMAK svd wannabe was quite a dissapointment in accuracy tests made by a local gun magazine... clearly inferior to SVDs (that are called Unmarksman rifles in here but it might be just the fact that we expect SAKO accuracy from everyone else too

)

The PSL may not be perfect. But I would dare anyone to stand 500M downrange from mine . Alot of the reports I read on the PSL say that if you get a good one, they will shoot right on par with a SVD or TIGR. Hell, SVD's that I have seen shoot about 1.5"-2" M.O.A. Not exactly the most precise "Sniper Rifles" around. More like a "Designated Marksmens Rifle" like an M-14. However I have never shot a Drag myself. It does make me laugh when people try and sell them in this country as Draganovs though.

Your right about the SAKO though, that is a damn fine rifle. Right up there with Kimber (maybe even better) IMHO.

[edit on 24-8-2006 by GPWASR10]

Duby
I'm Reserve SF NCO (Recon specialist), an IPSC shooter and a mechanical engineering major, but i sure as hell ain't a cop

Btw, Finnish border troops who use Dragunov say it's pretty selective about the ammo it uses, normal Finnish 7,62x53R rounds won't work (rounds made for Tak-85) any news if PSL is similar?

Originally posted by GPWASR10
Is it a ROMAK as in a PSL ROMAK dude? Cause if that is the case then you are getting a designated marksmen rifle. Not some run of the mill AK. My ROMAK PSL (7.62x54R) is money out to about 500 yards. My Romanian AK’s are good out to about 200 yards or so vs. a man sized target. The drums are good but unless you have a full auto they are just a little worthless. Cool looking but worthless.

[edit on 22-8-2006 by GPWASR10]

Why are drums worthless on semi auto?