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Winchester and Ruger 22 LR Bolt Actions

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posted on Aug, 18 2006 @ 09:50 AM
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I stumbled across the new Winchester Model 230 bolt action 22 LR last night.
Since many of us shoot for recreation as well as pleasure and it's not always a military surplus weapon, comparing the new Winchester 22 bolt action to the been-around-a-while Ruger 22 bolt action would be interesting to many here on the board.

The Winchester Model 230 is an interesting and appealing little rifle for a modest list price. ($230.)



Data:
21" Sporter weight barrel.
22 Long Rifle with semi-target chamber for top accuracy.
Polished bore and precision rifling.
Micro adjustable rear sight with fold-down design for full clearance when mounting a scope.
Classic Winchester details like checkered buttplate (with embossed Winchester crest) and a durable composite pistol grip cap.
Cut checkered hardwood stock with Featherweight styling right down to the Schnabel fore-end tip.
Three 10-round magazines and one 5-round magazine included - that's correct, four total.
Easily removable, field strippable bolt for easy maintenance.
Forward magazine release so the magazine pops right into your hand for easy retention.
Advanced trigger system offers safety and a lighter trigger pull for accuracy.

Further information here: www.winchesterguns.com...


Comparing the new Winchester with the favored by many, Ruger Model 77/22 LR shows a few differences.



Right up front, the Ruger’s list price is $674.

To me - and not just cuz I'm a Ruger fan, the Model 77 catches the flavor of the bolt rifle right on the money.
A lot of things were done right on it, not the least being, the hardly ever fails - and if it does, it's probably your fault - rotary magazine.
I don't know why more manufacturers don't jump on the rotary magazine, I'm sure the patent ran out long ago.

The 77/22 stock, if not a study in grace - and it is to my eyes - falls into the good looks dept. quite well.

The Winchester has an under stock magazine, with - as noted - 5 and 10 shot clips.
I don't know which one shows in the photo, but it makes no difference.
In some respects the Winchester catches the flavor of some - if not most - WW1 bolt rifles with their underslung magazines.
A bit off-putting to my eye when comparing it to the clean lines of the 77/22.

I note that the balance point for most rifles is right across the magazine.
With the 77/22's flush rotary clip it makes for an easy carry.
Other 22's, bolt action or not, with their understock magazine makes for a sometimes difficult, other times uncomfortable carry.

I have mixed emotions on the Schnabel fore-end.
I'm fairly sure it's a European thing that got popular some years back
In some aspects it looks good, in others, it looks like a pregnant perch due to it's making the stock appear to hang down behind the Schnabel and in front of the trigger.

The Winchester’s bolt handle location is commonly done on a lot of 22's, but it makes them look 22ish and takes the look away from the - usually - good looking centerfire bolt actions with their bolt to the rear.

The 77/22 catches the centerfire look quite well.
Perhaps some aren't bothered by the center of the receiver bolt handle location, but it's always bothered me a bit.
Especially so with the 77/22's good looking bolt handle arrangement.
I'm not trying to - or even saying the manufacturer ought to - try to emulate the centerfire look, but it strikes me that you can't go too wrong in doing so.

Overall the Winchester stock has an appearance of heaviness, but it’s an illusion to an extent and a single two dimensional photo probably doesn’t do it justice.

Even though I’m carping a bit, the little Winchester does appeal to me.
I probably won’t get one, but with the low list price, they ought to be pretty reasonable once they’ve been on the market for a little while.

I predict as well, that more than a few of these will be set up for target shooting.
A good peep sight and the right height front sight will do it.
And if something isn’t available right now, it will be in the near future as the rimfire experimenters get their hands on them.

Even so, the 77/22 is relatively easy to convert to a target rifle, especially so if you can find an open sight model.
The 77/22 has a plethora of aftermarket goodies available and a heavy barrel with front sight shouldn’t be too difficult to find.

My only complaint with the 77/22 is the lack of a trigger stop.
Easily rectified with a little drilling and tapping and I’ve done a couple of them with very good results.
A softer trigger return spring, a little Gunslick grease on the sear makes for a very nice trigger with no stoning/polishing the sear required.

Comparing the entry level Winchester Model 390 with the Ruger 77/22 is perhaps unfair, but for the most part we’re Ruger fans and that’s what we’re going to compare it to.

The Winchester Model 390 will make a nice rifle for a young shooter and the . . . more mature shooter as well.
Especially those concerned with price.

Even so, Ruger offers a lot of value for the money and more than a few of the 77/22's will be around, looking good and in fine operating condition a hundred years from now.

The Winchester is noted as being assembled from world-wide sourcing and that’s a point to be very aware of.
One of the biggest things going on in this era of merchandising crap that lasts for a short while and company CEO’s figuring you’ll have to buy a new whatever not far down the line, all the while taking their major chunk of money out of the economy and in fact out of the company they work for and bailing out with their golden parachutes.

It remains to be seen whether the little Winchester can make it or if it turns out to be not what it appears to be.

In the meantime, I’ll be enjoying my 77/22M and saving up for another one.

Nuff said....




posted on Aug, 18 2006 @ 09:58 AM
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The first firearm I ever owned was a Ruger Standard short barrel. Bought it in 1956, in Mississippi. $37.50.

Fantastically accurate. A friend of mine - a dead eye shot - could hit 10 out of 10 time after time on a 1000 inch range, seated and using a sandbag.

Why do you think the Ruger 77 is so pricey? Surely the Winchester is not made in China and the Ruger in Connecticut?




[edit on 8/18/2006 by donwhite]



posted on Aug, 18 2006 @ 11:20 AM
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Originally posted by donwhite
The first firearm I ever owned was a Ruger Standard short barrel. Bought it in 1956, in Mississippi. $37.50.

Fantastically accurate. A friend of mine - a dead eye shot - could hit 10 out of 10 time after time on a 1000 inch range, seated and using a sandbag.

Why do you think the Ruger 77 is so pricey? Surely the Winchester is not made in China and the Ruger in Connecticut?


[edit on 8/18/2006 by donwhite]



Not the first firearm I ever owned, but I bought a 10-22 in August of 1968.
Still have it, a trouble free pleasant shooting little gun.
Like you say, it can do better than I can.


As far as the price of the Ruger goes, it may be up there to allow a good discount.
Wally World carries the basic wooden stock blued model at $473.24.
Funny part is, their price for the same model in SS is $468.82.
The price differential probably due to the synthetic stock which has a lot less handwork in it than the wood stock does.

From what I understand Connecticut is a fairly expensive state to live in.
Wages are probably higher due to that fact and for sure US citizens can't work for the extremely small wages that Chinese do.

Winchester is using the "World-Wide Sourcing" as a bragging point and that's probably good marketing, but to me it's an indicator to be cautious.
I'm not too enamored of Chinese steel alloys.
(I have a small home machine shop, lathe, mill etc. and so far the Chinese alloys I've tried to machine make nothing better than a good door stop.

I'm hoping Winchester has some input on alloy choices that go into this firearm.
Hoping as well that I'm incorrect about the rifle being made in China.
I wouldn't have a problem with it being made in Japan, Poland and other industrialized countries.

My experience with Chinese machine tools has been mixed.
And I'm guessing the better ones actually came from Taiwan.
After buying one Chinese made 4" three jaw chuck that was brand new and exhibited the symptoms of a well worn 40 year old chuck that was sadly out of parallelism put me off on their machine tools to the extent that I try to buy American used or new/used Japanese tools.
Other machine tools that have done well for me were Polish - very good chucks - England, Israel and Germany.

It remains to be seen where the Winchester was made and the quality of same, but once it gets out into the shooting world any problems or quality issues will be soon known.

Fwiw, Ruger moved part of it's manufacturing to Prescott, Arizona into the airport industrial area.
I would not be surprised to see the remainder of the factory move out here as well.
Taxes etc. are more favorable than they are in Connecticut from what I understand and Prescott with it's over 5000' altitude has a nice climate to live in.
Nice town as well.

To strike off on a bit of a tangent, I come from California, both SoCal and Central Calif. at different times and watched the movie industry get virtually taxed out of existence by the state and counties.
One reason why a lot of filming is done states more amenable to bringing in companies to help employment for their peoples and also why a lot of it went overseas.

In any event, I hope the Winchester turns out to be well made of the proper alloys and is a hit in the marketplace.
It will be a good introduction to shooting for most and especially so for kids since it's easy to use them in single-shot mode.

For those who've noted that Winchester closed it doors a short time back, they're open again.
Browning bought the company and will operate it under the venerable and well respected Winchester name.

I hope they do it proud.
Since Browning has a venerable and well respected name their own selves I expect they will....



posted on Aug, 18 2006 @ 01:06 PM
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posted by Desert Dawg

I bought a 10-22 in 1968 . . a trouble free pleasant shooting little gun . . it can do better than I can. As thee price of the Ruger goes, it may be up there to allow a good discount. Wally World carries the basic wooden stock blued model at $473.24.

I understand Connecticut is an expensive state to live in. Wages are probably higher and for sure US citizens can't work for the extremely small wages that Chinese do.

Winchester is using the "World-Wide Sourcing" as a bragging point and that's probably good marketing, but to me it's an indicator to be cautious. [Edited by Don W]


We can’t undo the on-going globalization process. Nor can we un-make Wal-Mart. (Germany seems to be trying.) It’s a fact of life people born after the 1st Gulf War will feel comfortable with, but those of us who have more time-in-grade on planet Earth will always tear up when we recall the good old days of visiting the local hardware store, for one example. I once shipped for Belknap Hardware Co. of Louisville, which made the famous Bluegrass brand of hand tools on the banks of the Ohio River. Presbyterian Church USA is now headquartered in those renovated buildings.



I have a small home machine shop, lathe, mill etc. and so far the Chinese alloys I've tried to machine make nothing better than a good door stop. I have no problem with Japan, Poland, Taiwan, England, Israel and Germany.


Well, this I know from reading Field and Stream, Outdoor Life, Guns and Ammo, and etc., on firearms and “proof” marks. Firearms from almost every country around the world bear proof marks. Hopefully not falsified, but put there by someone who was duly accredited to know what he was doing. After War 2 Americans were cautioned about proof marks and that our ammo might be more powerful than the gun was “proofed” for.

American firearms OTOH, bore no proof marks, because all domestic gun makers including the less expensive Mossberg line, the Iver Johnson and various makers of JC Higgins were all strong enough to hold any standard load and probably a lot more. Made in USA meant something you could rely on.



Ruger moved part of it's manufacturing to Prescott, Arizona. I would not be surprised to see the remainder of the factory move out here as well. Taxes etc. are more favorable than they are in Connecticut . . Prescott with it's over 5000' altitude has a nice climate to live in. Nice town as well.


Water! Which has the most water, Bridgeport or Prescott? I live in Jacksonville FL. All of our “city” water comes from wells. The St. Johns river is too dirty to drink from. A great aquifer covers a lot of SE GA and most of North FL. When I was first here - 1966 - wells were 350 feet deep. Today, the wells are 750 feet deep and there are 2 X as many as before. Plus, “blocking” wells are now being drilled along the Atlantic coast to prevent saline water from seeping into the falling aquifer. We are limited to watering our lawns 2 X a week. It’s going to get much worse before it gets better. If it ever does.



For those who noted that Winchester closed it doors a short time back, they're open again. Browning bought the company and operate it under the well respected Winchester name. I hope they do it proud. Since Browning also has a well respected name, I expect they will.” [Edited by Don W]


I do not accept that it had to be this way. I am not an economic theorist. I operate on intuition mostly. Like you I have sat by and watched those we trusted and who we thought knew what was happening and how to make it “all good for us” but now seem to have let us down.

I used to think it started - globalization - with the Mexican maquiladora scheme launched in 1965 to stop illegal border crossings. I had a friend in Indpls who worked for RCA winding yokes for tvs. RCA moved to Mexico. He had the option to move or take a lump sum. With a wife and 3 kids, he took the lump sum.

Then I realized Ford was in England, Germany and Canada. GM was in England and Germany as well as Australia. This was all done well before War 2. Globalization, like the Arab-Israeli dispute, or the chicken and egg argument, it’s hard to say when it began or who was first.

Thanks Desert Dawg, for your interesting observations. You made a topic that could be boring interesting and informative.



[edit on 8/18/2006 by donwhite]



posted on Aug, 18 2006 @ 02:32 PM
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Water! Which has the most water, Bridgeport or Prescott? I live in Jacksonville FL. All of our “city” water comes from wells. The St. Johns river is too dirty to drink from. A great aquifer covers a lot of SE GA and most of North FL. When I was first here - 1966 - wells were 350 feet deep. Today, the wells are 750 feet deep and there are 2 X as many as before. Plus, “blocking” wells are now being drilled along the Atlantic coast to prevent saline water from seeping into the falling aquifer. We are limited to watering our lawns 2 X a week. It’s going to get much worse before it gets better. If it ever does.




Prescott has a couple of moderately large lakes.
The city bought them a little while back and took a fairly large chunk of farmland out of production.
The water, more than likely for the developers and there are a lot of new - and large - houses in the city.

I'd guess that Bridgeport has the most water due to the rainfall there is considerably more than it is here.

Arizona does have some large aquifers, but being a bit of a newbie to the state I don't know much about them other than some of them are being drawn down faster than replenishment.
Pretty much true all over the S/W US due to the drought we're in.

The mighty Colorado River and Lake Mead has been drawn down so far that Las Vegas - which gets it's water from Lake Mead has installed an inlet about 60' deeper than the old inlet which dates from the 30's.
The old inlet was getting to the point where it wasn't going to take much more draw-down to expose the inlet.
I don't know if the old inlet is exposed, I'm guessing not, but it's probably pretty close.

I used to try and buy American, but gave it up to an extent when I found my new 88 Mustang GT had West German tires and Japanese wheel bearings.

Still though, you can find small manufacturers of small things that still put out a product that you'd be proud to own.

I often wonder if the CEO's who are looting America realize they are destroying the customer base of the country.
Presumably they don't care, but there comes a time when money isn't worth anything....



posted on Aug, 18 2006 @ 03:11 PM
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www.clcweb.net...

The M82 was a sweet rifle, and the new Kimber 22 should be just as nice:

www.kimberamerica.com...

While I usually tap all my 22 rims with my trusty Ruger 10/22 with a Mannlicher stock, I have a soft spot for my Browning BL-22 Definitely a throwback rifle, but many a prairie dog has met their end with my boyhood friend.

The 22 LR rifle is a shooter's mainstay, and should probably be their first rifle. They are inexpensive, have almost no recoil or noise (still wear hearing protection though) and the ammo is priced so that you can actually pull the trigger an not wince. I occasionally run into someone who scoffs at the cartridge, and I typically find that they aren't much of a shot at all.



posted on Aug, 18 2006 @ 03:44 PM
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posted by Mirthful Me

The M82 was a sweet rifle . . the new Kimber 22 should be just as nice . . I usually tap my 22 rims with my trusty Ruger 10/22 with a Mannlicher stock . . I have a soft spot for my Browning BL-22 . . Definitely a throwback rifle, but many a prairie dog has met their end with my boyhood friend. They are inexpensive, have almost no recoil or noise - still wear hearing protection though - and the ammo is priced so that you can actually pull the trigger an not wince. I occasionally
run into someone who scoffs at the cartridge . . “ [Edited by
Don W]


I have always admired the Mannlicher stock especially some done in African Zebra wood but never owned one, and I’ve never shot with one. A cousin brought back a pair of French dueling pistols in .22 BB size. I had never heard of BB size but had no trouble finding a box. At 10 paces - each - making about 20 X 30 inch steps, say 50 feet apart, no one could hit the side of a barn shooting BB caps. My cousin said he was told that was the intent - that no one got hurt.

Lastly, many years ago - say in the 1980s, I read that more people were killed by .22s than any other caliber handgun. It may not be an engine block breaker but it can be deadly.



posted on Aug, 18 2006 @ 07:35 PM
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A little more research shows that the new Winchester is apparently either taken from the Russian TOZ-78 or is the Russian TOZ-78 with an American made stock.

From what I understand the TOZ-78 is a pretty fair target rifle.

Being Russian made takes away the worries I had about Chinese alloys.

If the new Winchester is made in Russia I don't think there are any worries about the alloys involved.
We've not heard about too many failures with the Russion AK47 or SKS.

A pic of the Russian TOZ-78 as imported into the US.




posted on Aug, 18 2006 @ 07:48 PM
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Originally posted by Mirthful Me

While I usually tap all my 22 rims with my trusty Ruger 10/22 with a Mannlicher stock, I have a soft spot for my definitely a throwback rifle, but many a prairie dog has met their end with my boyhood friend, a Browning BL22.

The 22 LR rifle is a shooter's mainstay, and should probably be their first rifle. They are inexpensive, have almost no recoil or noise (still wear hearing protection though) and the ammo is priced so that you can actually pull the trigger an not wince. I occasionally run into someone who scoffs at the cartridge, and I typically find that they aren't much of a shot at all.


Mirthful Me's quote edited for brevity by Desert Dawg.

Me too on the go-to bit about the 10-22.
Almost always my 10-22 is first choice.
Even so, your BL22 is a desirable rifle and I hope you still own it.

I was fortunate to get the Winchester Model 74 (22 LR semi-auto with 22" barrel) back from my grandfathers house 34 years ago.
My dad bought it new in 1952 and it was left with my grandfather until I was old enough to own it.
My cousins had beat it to hell and gone and when I got it back in 1972, I restored it to factory level . . . then broke the operating handle (which I call the bolt or cocking handle) and parked it for another 30 years.
It looked brand new, but was non-functional.

I few weeks back I got some replacement parts for it and got it back to A-1 shape.
It's a sweet shooter, functions smoothly and is the right size for an adult male.
I was going to get another 10-22 and leave it open sighted since the one I already have has a scope, but the little Winchester will fill the open sight role quite well.

A pic of the 74 is below.




As well as the 10-22 I bought new in 1968.




I enjoyed your comment about some guys poo-poohing the good ol 22 LR rimfire.
It's always been one of my favorites.
And like you say, some of the naysayers couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with one . . . from the inside....



posted on Aug, 18 2006 @ 08:04 PM
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Originally posted by donwhite

Lastly, many years ago - say in the 1980s, I read that more people were killed by .22s than any other caliber handgun. It may not be an engine block breaker but it can be deadly.



I've read the same thing.
Although an added comment was, "two to ten days after the fact."

Seems the 22 LR travels in the body and does a lot of small scale damage that leads to death in many cases.

A couple of short stories I have direct knowledge of.

One, the younger brother of a good friend of mine.
The younger brother was shot in the chest and the bullet traveled from his right to left, missed the heart, but caused internal bleeding.
He darn near died because the small town doctor hung the X-ray film up backwards and decided there was no problem.
His life was saved by being transported to the larger city to the south and the docs there knew what they were doing.

The other, a couple of guys had been fighting over a girl.
Actually, the fight was rather one-sided and the toughest of the two once again stopped the new boy friends car.
The new boy friend had been through enough and started carrying a 22 rifle.
He stuck it out the window to scare the old boy friend off, the old boy friend grabbed the rifle barrel, pulled it and the rifle went off.

The bullet entered the old boy friends chest, but he had enough strength to walk around the front of the car and sit down on the curb.

The girl they'd been fighting over and the kid who was getting beat up loaded the old boy friend into their car and took him to the hospital which was about a half mile away.

The old boy friend died after an hour or so.
The 22 LR bullet had traveled inside his chest, damaged several organs and the doctors couldn't get the internal bleeding stopped in time to save his life.

That happened over 45 years ago and the kid who was getting beat up seldom comes back to town.

The old boy friends two brothers remain in town and they've never forgotten nor forgiven....



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