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Bob Lazar fact or fiction???

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posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 03:16 AM
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I have the same questions as jritzmann

The thing with Bob Lazar's story is it has weaved it's way into so many other accounts of this alleged Alien intervention, and has most likely contributed to a coverup of a bigger conspiracy. I think there are some unexplained events that take place, but it may not be originating from beings from another Planet. And if there are aliens, their true motives may be being kept hidden.

Lazar was probably used. Set up as the spokesperson.




posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 03:25 AM
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Originally posted by LAES YVAN
Schaden did you read the interviews? Did you do any research?


Yes I gave you the benefit of the doubt and read the first recommended "Bob Lazar Prosecution Interview". THAT was your ace ? LMAO
There are so many holes I don't know where to begin.

First of all there is no proof S-4 is a govt research facility.
So when Lazar claims he worked there and Knapp allegedly confirmed through the AF, there is an S-4 but they'd not say what it is, I hardly consider that proof of anything.
S-4 is a range in the vicinity of A-51. Just because Lazar knew there is a range called S-4 doesn't prove there are underground bunkers and he was a research physicist !
That's called leaping to conclusions.

Knapp says Lazar passed a polygraph test and then conveniently enough, the results were stolen in a burglary ? Ok so has he taken a test since ?
Let's see the results of a polygraph. Knapp's second hand testimony that he passed one 15+ years ago, without even stating the questions asked or any first hand comments by the actual polygraph conducter mean nothing !

Here is the biggest reason why I believe Lazar is a fraud and Knapp even shares this concern. Read what he posted:


Originally posted by George Knapp
"Bob's academic claims have always been troublesome to me. I know that other researchers, including my friend Stan Friedman, have made a lot of noise about their discovery that there are no records to prove that Bob attended MIT or Cal Tech. This information was made public in my very first on-air story about Bob. No one else broke the news or made this "gotcha" discovery. It was on the table from day one. (I give credit to Stan for doing the kind of legwork that few other Lazar critics have undertaken themselves, but, as mentioned, it is ground that I had already covered. Stan also makes the claim that Lazar was in the bottom third of his high school class. This cannot be substantiated, and Stan knows it. The school will not release such information. We have to take Stan's word for it, a level of proof that HE would be unlikely to accept if the positions were reversed.) Nonetheless, I admit that Lazar cannot prove his academic claims. Knowing Bob as well as I do, I find it hard to believe that he would endure the many non-science elective courses that would be required for any college degree. That said, an exaggerated claim about educational credentials is not a death knell for his credibility in my view. (Unlike the Dan Burisch case, which is different on many levels.)"


So basically his gut tells him to ignore this obvious discrepancy. Some investigative journalist. Did it ever occur to you George Knapp has a vested interest in believing Lazar wholeheartedly, considering he was the one that broke the whole story, staking his reputation on it ?

There is little doubt Lazar worked for KM, a subcontractor at Los Alamos.
That doesn't make him a physicist.
He could have been a janitor.
There is a pattern of exaggeration.
Knapp even admits it is likely the W-2 from the Dept of Naval Intelligence
is just someone playing with their heads.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Knapp says he has 2 dozen witnesses that confirm parts of Lazar's story.
Again, this proves nothing. What are their names ? Can they prove they worked
at Area-51 ? Even if the security guard really worked there, he is in no position to confirm if Lazar was backengineering alien UFOs.
So what if he knew the cafeteria was green or whatever color ? I'm sure Lazar has done his own research about A-51.
Knowing the color of the cafeteria means ziltch.
Give me a break.

I don't know much about Knapp, but reading some of his other posts makes me doubt his credibility as well. One of his other Q&A threads talks about "skinwalkers" aka magical beasts that take 6 large caliber rounds at close range without damage and then walk off and disappear. Sounds like a nutcase.

And FYI I've been reading and researching UFOs for years now.
Most of the time spent with actual books by respected authors.
This forum as well as the internet in general is not the best place to get info on UFOs.
The signal to noise ratio is low.

You throw out strawman arguments. I never claimed there weren't UFOs at A-51.
There very well could be. But I don't believe Lazar ever worked on them.
Back then the security was less intense.
You could get a lot closer, the feds hadn't absorbed the extra land.
So when he was loitering around the edges and they saw experimental vehicles flying, it doesn't mean Lazar had any inside knowlege. It's not like he escorted people into A-51 or anything.


Originally posted by LAES YVAN
Who are you to say he is a fraud? Where is your proof he is a fraud? Untill you have proof he is a fraud, your words mean nothing.


No. Your words mean nothing.
The burden is on you to prove Lazar is what he claims.
I still can't believe you told me "I'm not lying. Lazar is the real deal."
Like I'm supposed to take your word for it. LMAO

What is your response to me pointing out the ridiculous notion that any "above top secret" information Lazar was briefed into would only require a 10-20 year nondisclosure agreement ? Again, I had a high level clearance and as a collateral duty, worked as an asst security manager for the command doing paperwork to DIS for security investigations. Going from nothing to an "above top secret" clearance takes at least a year to adjudicate anyways. There is no chance he was called up and started working on backengineering UFOs a couple months later like he claims.
So when people throw out BS like that, and say they had clearance 32 levels above top secret or whatever it is Lazar claims, I know he's lying.

Let's not even get into this person's claims about element 115, and how he managed to steal hundreds of pounds of it. Despite the fact when it was actually synthesized the half life was less than a split second.


The onus is not on me. By the tone of your post you seem to take my lack of belief personally.


[admin edit]: Removed unecessary and childish "name calling" please review the dozens of threads we've posted explaining ATS decorum and civility.

[edit on 8-19-2006 by Springer]



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 03:33 AM
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Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher

Originally posted by chris01621
I dont know how old this topic might be but i only heard of bob lazar recently. I would like to know wether you guys belive his story or not and to discuss any topic he is saying is true. If you dont know who Bob Lazar is go to boblazar.com read evrything that is written, it took me about 1 hour 30 mins to read and understand evrything that is be stated, you will find it very interesting and then come back and post you opinians.


I will tell you the only reason Bob Lazar holds any credability to me is this:

There were entities in the government and sources at Los Alomos that officially stated that Bob Lazar had never worked there. Yet, the IRS had W-2s and other tax records, as did Bob, that are absolute documentation that Bob Lazar was working there when he said he was.

This is why i have not totally disregarded his story as bogus. And, also some personal reasons. There is some truth in what he says, in my opinion.


If there was indeed a plan to sell the story of this "secret alien agenda" it wouldn't look very secretivish if there wasn't the illusion of conflict going on.



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 03:58 AM
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Schaden, Bob Lazar has been very well known for many many years now. You are a newbie to this subject, and I suggest you read more about him before YOU jump to conclusions. And NO that little bit of information I told you to read in George Knapps interview was not "my ace", it was simply a head start into the right direction of obtaining information that he HAS been identified and has proven that he worked inside of Area 51..

I have been reading about Bob Lazar for about 8 years now, maybe longer, so have many others. Do you really think George Knapps, you, me and others are the only ones that questioned his credentials?? No, many many many people questioned his credentials, and the people that did the most digging have found that it is a FACT that Bob Lazar has worked in Area 51 and S-4.

Anyway... I could really care less your opinion on him. But it does piss me off how certain you are that his guy is a fraud, just because of your ignorance.

You are the type of ingnorant person that needs proof of the proof of the proof. It's a never ending story with you people...


Just keep in mind, the US government is sneaky. VERY sneaky. I don't doubt for one second they erased his academic history and other important documents.

Also, non-disclosure contracts come in many different sizes. Back in 1988 and 1989, when Bob Lazar worked in S-4, their non-disclosure contracts weren't so long. Now days, they are much worse, as it stands now I have a LIFE TIME non-disclosure contract with the US Navy.

[edit on 19-8-2006 by LAES YVAN]



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 08:38 AM
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Knowing a few things about clearances and non-disclosure agreements I want to provide this info to help all of you understand them better.

Lots if info on NdAs.
www.fas.org...

The older SF 189/189A forms were replaced with SF 312s in 1988.
bobpark.physics.umd.edu...
www.usdoj.gov...

The SF 312s are to be kept on file for 50 years. This is to help the gov't incase they have to bring someone to court and use the NdA against them.

I cannot find any expiration date for any of these NdAs. I would think that after 50 years the proof of you signing one would be harder to find, but everything today is kept electronically. This agreement should follow you to your grave if it was filed electronically.

When you seperate from USAF (civilian or military) you must sign an AF Form 2587, security termination statement. I would think that all branches use a form like this during out-processing. Can Lazar show us a copy of this document? That way we can find his de-briefer and ask him or her if this is real and help prove he had a clearance.

Getting a clearance isn't hard if you are found trustworthy, but running your mouth about what you know will have consequences. Info that Lazar talks about would put him behind bars and/or fined if it was classified. I don't know about any court proceedings that he has/is/or will be going through, but anything of the sort would be proof that he has talked about something classified. What he may have talked about is another question, speculate all you want. That info won't be discussed outside the court room and will be kept out of public knowledge because of national security.

I do know the process for clearances and NdAs. There would have been many people involved in getting Lazar his clearance, so why haven't they been contacted to back this story up? Why hasn't he shown proof of these documents?

If he had a record there should be something in JPAS(JCAVS) saying that he still has one, or that his records are no longer on file. How come nobody has tried to prove his claims this way? I guess there aren't many here that can verify his background and/or they have tried and failed to show proof either way. Maybe they got taken away.....lol

I feel good knowing that there are many real people on this site asking serious questions. I feel even better knowing that there are a few that understand the process behind security clearances and NdAs that must be signed and taken to heart, not used as a way to exploit classified info to satisfy the public's need to know. If you really want to know get a job with the gov't and work your way towards these areas of interest.



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 10:45 AM
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Originally posted by Schaden



Let's not even get into this asshat's claims about element 115, and how he managed to steal hundreds of pounds of it. Despite the fact when it was actually synthesized the half life was less than a split second.



You newbies need to keep your facts straight. Bob didn't 'steal hundreds of pounds of it.' He was 'given' three 'arrowhead shaped, about 2 inches long, machined pieces'. One of these arrowhead shaped pieces can power a saucer for about 200 years. Bob, Joe Vannenetti and I conducted an experiment to prove the qualities of 115. It was video taped. (The description of this experiment is in another thread called Element 115). Regardless of what you read or hear it is impossible, yes, impossible to synthesize 115 here on earth. Even in minute quantities.

All of us here on ATS welcome newbies and their rants. But lets keep your facts straight and eliminate insulting names like 'asshats'.



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 10:53 AM
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Originally posted by Schaden



S-4 is a range in the vicinity of A-51. Just because Lazar knew there is a range called S-4 doesn't prove there are underground bunkers and he was a research physicist !


There are 2 S-4's within the NTS proper. One is an electronic bombing range one is the research facility that Bob worked at. The one range could be identified from certain charts of the test site but the S-4 that Bob worked at could not. It is not on any map or chart.

We welcome newbies and their rants, (however uninformed they may be) but we do request that you at least attempt to keep your facts straight and that you refrain from name calling. PLease refer to the rules for posting on ATS. Thanks.



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 10:58 AM
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Originally posted by Access Denied
Sorry Springer but that FACT is simply NOT true! 115 was theorized about in scientific literature available to the public 20 years BEFORE Bob said anything about it! Pehaps you missed my post about this last month before your GK interview? Here it is again...

www.abovetopsecret.com...


I sure did miss it. I got it now though and stand corrected.

Thanks Access Denied, this is why I love our site, so many minds collaborating usually leads me to the facts which is the only place I want to be.


Nice work.


Springer...



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 11:01 AM
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Originally posted by Schaden



Here is the biggest reason why I believe Lazar is a fraud and Knapp even shares this concern. Read what he posted:

Originally posted by George Knapp
"Bob's academic claims have always been troublesome to me. I know that other researchers, including my friend Stan Friedman, have made a lot of noise about their discovery that there are no records to prove that Bob attended MIT or Cal Tech. This information was made public in my very first on-air story about Bob. No one else broke the news or made this "gotcha" discovery. It was on the table from day one. (I give credit to Stan for doing the kind of legwork that few other Lazar critics have undertaken themselves, but, as mentioned, it is ground that I had already covered. Stan also makes the claim that Lazar was in the bottom third of his high school class. This cannot be substantiated, and Stan knows it. The school will not release such information. We have to take Stan's word for it, a level of proof that HE would be unlikely to accept if the positions were reversed.) Nonetheless, I admit that Lazar cannot prove his academic claims. Knowing Bob as well as I do, I find it hard to believe that he would endure the many non-science elective courses that would be required for any college degree. That said, an exaggerated claim about educational credentials is not a death knell for his credibility in my view. (Unlike the Dan Burisch case, which is different on many levels.)"


If this is the biggest reason you think Lazar is a fraud then you have staked your lack of investigative research ability on George Knapps honesty.



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 11:18 AM
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Originally posted by Schaden



Give me a break.



No Schaden, give us a break.


I don't know much about Knapp, but reading some of his other posts makes me doubt his credibility as well.


This tells lot about you investigative credentials. It tells us that you are making judgements without making thorough background checks. Before wasting our time here on ATS you need to do a little research so that you don't have to say "I don't know much about so and so but here is my opinion." In those cases your opinion is worth nothing.


I know he's goddamn lying.


This is a very strange statement for a qualified investigative ressearcher or even someone making the claims of Lazar being a fraud. Actually, it sounds like someone literally out of control. You need to 'chill out', drink a glass of water, maybe take a couple of aspirin. All of us here on ATS welcome a debate, thats why we plug in here. But its no fun to debate with someone whose bottom line is, "I know he's a goddamn liar."


By the tone of your post you seem to take my lack of belief personally.


Its not that we take it personally Schaden, its that several of us are tying to take our valuable time to try and help you limit the personal damage you are doing to yourself and your credibility.



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 11:29 AM
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Originally posted by LAES YVAN
Schaden, Bob Lazar has been very well known for many many years now. You are a newbie to this subject, and I suggest you read more about him before YOU jump to conclusions. And NO that little bit of information I told you to read in George Knapps interview was not "my ace", it was simply a head start into the right direction of obtaining information that he HAS been identified and has proven that he worked inside of Area 51..

I have been reading about Bob Lazar for about 8 years now, maybe longer, so have many others. Do you really think George Knapps, you, me and others are the only ones that questioned his credentials?? No, many many many people questioned his credentials, and the people that did the most digging have found that it is a FACT that Bob Lazar has worked in Area 51 and S-4.

Anyway... I could really care less your opinion on him. But it does piss me off how certain you are that his guy is a fraud, just because of your ignorance.

You are the type of ingnorant person that needs proof of the proof of the proof. It's a never ending story with you people...


Just keep in mind, the US government is sneaky. VERY sneaky. I don't doubt for one second they erased his academic history and other important documents.

Also, non-disclosure contracts come in many different sizes. Back in 1988 and 1989, when Bob Lazar worked in S-4, their non-disclosure contracts weren't so long. Now days, they are much worse, as it stands now I have a LIFE TIME non-disclosure contract with the US Navy.

[edit on 19-8-2006 by LAES YVAN]


Throw out more ad hominem attack won't you ?
It doesn't help your case.
I'm laughing in your face.
You're not worth anymore of my time.
You can't even form a cogent argument.
I doubt you're even really a SEAL.
Do you still believe in the toothfairy as well ?
Do you think Stanton Friedman is "ignorant" too ?



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 11:30 AM
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Originally posted by Schaden



What is your response to me pointing out the ridiculous notion that any "above top secret" information Lazar was briefed into would only require a 10-20 year nondisclosure agreement ?


What is the question?


Again, I had a high level clearance and as a collateral duty, worked as an asst security manager for the command doing paperwork to DIS for security investigations.


Me to. I was just a pilot and my clearance took over 2 years.


Going from nothing to an "above top secret" clearance takes at least a year to adjudicate anyways. There is no chance he was called up and started working on backengineering UFOs a couple months later like he claims.


Again Schadan I must ask you to keep you facts straight. Bob's security and job interviews took place in the middle of November of 1988. His first trip to S-4 was on December 6, 1988. Thats barely 3 weeks. Not the 'couple months' you are claiming.

Now, as no doubt your research is very thorough on Lazar, what was Lazar's stated reason as to why his clearance to Majestic (38 levels above Top Secret) was being elevated so quickly? Your comments and observations of this part of Lazar's story wold be most appreciated.



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 11:32 AM
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Originally posted by johnlear


No Schaden, give us a break.


Its not that we take it personally Schaden, its that several of us are tying to take our valuable time to try and help you limit the personal damage you are doing to yourself and your credibility.


No John. Give me a break.
Your credibility is far more in question than mine.
Nobody takes your rants seriously.
There is vegetation and a breathable atmosphere on the moon ? Yeah right.

A "soul collector" on the dark side ?



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 11:38 AM
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Originally posted by johnlear

Again Schadan I must ask you to keep you facts straight. Bob's security and job interviews took place in the middle of November of 1988. His first trip to S-4 was on December 6, 1988. Thats barely 3 weeks. Not the 'couple months' you are claiming.

Even worse. He went from no clearance to TS-SCI in a 3 weeks ?
Riiiight.

Now, as no doubt your research is very thorough on Lazar, what was Lazar's stated reason as to why his clearance to Majestic (38 levels above Top Secret) was being elevated so quickly? Your comments and observations of this part of Lazar's story wold be most appreciated.


Lazar spouting nonsense about a clearance 38 levels above top secret may impress
a neophyte, but as someone who held an "above top secret clearance" I call BS.
SCI compartments are not catergorized in levels.
Why don't you enlighten us, as to his "reason" for getting his clearance bumped up so quickly ? Let me guess, he was the only expert they could find on alien propulsion what with his "degrees" from Cal Tech and MIT ?

I'm through with this thread. What a joke.



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 11:40 AM
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Originally posted by Schaden


I'm laughing in your face.


Although probably true, this is not considered proper debate protocol.


You're not worth anymore of my time.


Which means?


I doubt you're even really a SEAL.


Is this more of your uninformed conjecture?


Do you still believe in the toothfairy as well ?


Excellent comeback Schaden.


Do you think Stanton Friedman is "ignorant" too ?


Friedman has never met or talked to Bob Lazar. Neither have you. But you both have the same opinion. What does that tell us? It tells us that you are both ready to form opinions without all of the evidence. Even Apollo astronaut Edgar Mitchell took the time to fly to Las Vegas to interview Bob. You might want to touch base with Dr. Mitchell and ask his opinion of Lazar.



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 11:53 AM
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Originally posted by Schaden




Your credibility is far more in question than mine.
Nobody takes your rants seriously.
There is vegetation and a breathable atmosphere on the moon ? Yeah right.


Until either you or I actually go to the moon I would respectfully request that you give me the benefit of the doubt, or at least suspend your insults until that event occurs. Thanks


A "soul collector" on the dark side ?


Schaden, again I must ask you to check your facts. There is no 'dark' side of the moon. The moon is in rotational lock with the earth and all parts of the moon receive the same amount of light as all other parts. The 'soul collector' is in the Sinus Medii near or at Mosting A, almost dead center in the half of the moon that faces earth. Whether or not it is a 'soul collector' is purely conjecture. That it towers about 6 miles above the lunar surface is photographic and scientific fact.



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 12:03 PM
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Originally posted by Schaden



Why don't you enlighten us, as to his "reason" for getting his clearance bumped up so quickly ?


No. I just wanted to see if you knew.


I'm through with this thread. What a joke.


On behalf of all of us participating in the thread we want you to know that you are always welcome back. We all enjoy a good debate. We would remind you, however, to mind your manners and keep your language within the acceptable limits of civility. You might want to review those limits as posted on ATS. Y'all comeback now, y'heah!



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 12:25 PM
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I would like to thank those participating in this discussion who managed to stay calm, cool, collected and AWAY FROM personality focus and ON topical focus.


Those who seem to get so upset over the fact there are people who don't take the "accepted or main stream" perspective however would do well to read the MANY POSTS we've made about the required civility and topical focus here on ATS.

If you find yourself getting "hot under the collar" or you think your particular knowledge is the end all you may want to take a break and calm down. It becomes very obvious when someone is losing their cool over a bunch of pixels on a screen and it doesn't do much for one's credibility when they are seen as an overheated shill.


This subject matter is very volatile because it requires one to accept the possibility that what we think we know is right may not be "right". It requires one to accept the possibility that our Government can and does change the rules at will and doesn't always tell the truth.

I for one, am willing to consider just about anything possible, I am also able to read what others think those possibilities may be without going bonkers over it and calling them names or "laughing in their face" or any other overly emotional response. Obviously many others are capable of this too, and that makes for very enjoyable and sometimes informative debate. It's always confused me as to why certain people are not able to discuss these possibilities without getting angry.


Be that as it may, this forum is under strict civility Moderation and the sniping, name calling, personality focus, etc... ends now.

Stick to the topic, be cordial and this can go anywhere, there is absolutely no reason to get upset.


Springer...






[edit on 8-19-2006 by Springer]



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 12:50 PM
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Unfortunately for Mr Lazar, he chose a path of conscience rather than mindless loyalty to the then fading military industrial complex or its replacement the global multinational corporate hegemony.
While I applaud Dr Friedman's efforts to bring serious scientific study to UFO's, he always seems to me more into public relations than hard science. Bill Lear, John' father, created numerous electronic devices that scientist and engineers said were impossible to accomplish. He did so without the benefit(or perhaps the hindrance) of a college education. I wonder if Dr Friedman would say Bill Lear couldn't have invented these devices because he has no college transcript?
There are many maverick researchers who are now openly questioning mainstream scientific community closemindedness on the subject of UFO's. Instead of serious data collection and cataloging about anomolous aerial phenomena, they're calling it psuedo-science and dismissing it as frivolous.
I am also a fence sitter about Bob Lazar's accounts of area S-4 but what's very obvious about them is the great lengths the gov't has gone through to protect its activities behind the fences of Area 51.



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 02:45 PM
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Since it seems we're through with "I know more then you do" from the peanut gallery, I'll ask these questions again.

Mr. Lear-
Do you believe there is any chance that Bob was used essentially as a controlled disinformation leak? By that I mean is it possible that the disc and whatever Bob might have been exposed to was nothing more then smoke and mirrors to divert possible attention away from any other black project? If Bob was drugged in some way, as he more or less indicated, on one of the Janet flights, could it be he was drugged and led through a senario to make him believe he was seeing something he wasnt?

I would also ask if you actually witnessed structured craft on any of Bob's "outings" on those nights at Groom Lake, or if they were only lights moving erratically?

Thanx,
Jeff




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