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Video Footage of Woman In Peaceful Protest Shot In Face By Police

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posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 11:56 AM
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Originally posted by crgintx


Mention the words, "free trade" and all the little (petty) 'ist's (anarchist,socialist, communist) come running. I agree that there needs to be greater economic justice in the world but the only way that you as an individual will get a greater sense of it is by careful financial planning and self-education not through state sponsored programs. Minorities in the US are told by the left because of their race, ethnicity or economic status that can't compete fairly with whites of just slightly better economic standards, pure horse puckey. I feel far more insulted by this liberal intelligentsia elitist view than the dumbest redneck's racial slur.



You have no idea what you are even talking about. we are losing our middle class and it has nothing to do with education. now its the high tech jobs that are going overseas, not just manufacturing. I was around when Ronald reagan first sold out the middle class, when he put NAFTA and a few other programs into the playing field.

You probably think corporations cannot survive in the world market using higher paid American workers dont you? They would survive, just not as much profit for the top five percent. Are you in the top five percent? I am sure you are not, so what are you brainwashed by corporate America?

You then state she wore red to make the locals think she is promoting communism? WTF? We are losing our country to corporate fascism and you are pulling out the left vs. right argument? Wake up guy this is the fleecing of America.




posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 01:03 PM
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Originally posted by defcon5






According to him the guns that fire rubber bullets are more like a shotgun then a rifle, they fire rubber buckshot that spreads out all over the place. These shots bounce around until they finally loose inertia and stop or hit something soft. These rounds are not a single shot rifle style of bullet that can be specifically aimed to hit a person in the face. Now he did admit that an officer that is a good shot with one could estimate the distance to bounce them off the ground so the rounds will bounce back up and have a greater chance of hitting a target in the five to six foot high range, and he knew this distance in exact feet.

So with the two headshots seen here, it is most likely just a lucky shot, a bad bounce, or they just happened to be in the right range by accident. Even if an officer was able to bounce the shot to try to increase the chances of a headshot there was no way that the officer could control which direction each individual projectile flew. In addition, if an officer was intentionally trying to make a headshot on the protesters, it was most likely on the group in general and not on any specific person, and he would have to know exactly how to do it.



Okay, so if what you're saying is true about the rubber bullets, that doesn't sound like a very safe weapon at all. Now I'm guessing the rubber bullets have to be dispersed outwards in different directions to break up a big crowd, but imagine this scenario.....what if there was a small child amidst the group of protesters and the child was struck by a stray rubber bullet? How about innocent bystanders walking on the sidewalks past the protesters? You're probably going to tell me that the chances of a small child walking past a group of protesters on the street and being struck by a rubber bullet is unlikely, but come on, it's very possible, especially when you say that


no way that the officer could control which direction each individual projectile flew


[edit on 8/19/2006 by jeepin4x4girl]



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 01:15 PM
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Originally posted by LoneGunMan

Originally posted by crgintx


Mention the words, "free trade" and all the little (petty) 'ist's (anarchist,socialist, communist) come running. I agree that there needs to be greater economic justice in the world but the only way that you as an individual will get a greater sense of it is by careful financial planning and self-education not through state sponsored programs. Minorities in the US are told by the left because of their race, ethnicity or economic status that can't compete fairly with whites of just slightly better economic standards, pure horse puckey. I feel far more insulted by this liberal intelligentsia elitist view than the dumbest redneck's racial slur.



You have no idea what you are even talking about. we are losing our middle class and it has nothing to do with education. now its the high tech jobs that are going overseas, not just manufacturing. I was around when Ronald reagan first sold out the middle class, when he put NAFTA and a few other programs into the playing field.

ou then You probably think corporations cannot survive in the world market using higher paid American workers dont you? They would survive, just not as much profit for the top five percent. Are you in the top five percent? I am sure you are not, so what are you brainwashed by corporate America?

Ystate she wore red to make the locals think she is promoting communism? WTF? We are losing our country to corporate fascism and you are pulling out the left vs. right argument? Wake up guy this is the fleecing of America.



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 03:00 PM
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This was not an isolated incident committed by some rogue cops. The cops' leader congratulated them, encouraging more of the same in the future. The apology was nothing but hypocritical insincere hogwash. He only apologized for what the cops said, not for what they did. What a pompous ass! These guys are sick fascist psycho sadists. Anyone who condones what they did is in danger of becoming just like them unless you're already there, in which case, you have little or no hope of redemption.

What these cops did is reminiscent of the propaganda we used to hear in the 60s and 70s about the brutal KGB. Seems the KGB, or at least its tactics, are taking up residence in the USA law enforcement system.

This was not an isolated incident. It's happening more and more often. We've had several cases in the Pacific Northwest recently of cops using tasers on people who were stopped for no more than speeding.

They're sending a message: Obey or get hurt! So far, it's been rather subtle. Watch it escalate in the coming months and years.

[edit on 8/19/2006 by dubiousone]



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 03:19 PM
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Rubber bullets kill and maim ppl. They have been used extensively in other countries to control crowds with bad results. It is well documented, yet cops in the US still want to use them?

Yeah cops are here for our protection...



LONDON - Some types of rubber bullets used by police to restrain unruly protesters kill and maim too often to be considered a safe method of crowd control, new research concludes.


www.mindfully.org...


Stephen McConomy, 11, Derry city, died three days after being hit by a plastic bullet in April 1982. Witnesses said Stephen was standing with his hands in his pockets when he was struck from a distance of 17 feet.


www.relativesforjustice.com...

www.emperors-clothes.com...




posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 04:03 PM
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I work with cops all the time, they love me and the rest of the fire service, wish I could say thats how they feel about the rest of humanity though. You dont know what they think until you talk to them while theyre on the job and under stress. They think all of you are just a bunch of low-life animals that need to be tamed.

I cringe when I think about the hard work and risk I take to help people and they blow rubber bullets indiscriminaly into a crowd of human beings. I wouldnt want them treating a pack of dogs that way let alone sisters, mother, brothers, and fathers.

If you condone that type of mentality then please go to a country that is already under a police state and leave this once beautifly free country to us human beings.



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 04:36 PM
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Well said Lone.


I'm going to back that up with experience I have, and that's growing up in a family with police officers including my father. BBQ's with his friends were very revealing and along the lines of what I saw in that video with the cheering and what above post just said. There are many good officers out there, and I know some of them on this site are. However I do feel that there is a growing number that would prefer control anything we did and act upon it when they think they can.

Funny enough, in my little broken city that some on here would absolutely love to see taken back into the river, our crowd control is top notch. Mardi Gras goes off without a hitch, other cities that try never can claim the same from what I've seen. Somehow we can handle protests and rallies without riot gear. We can handle Mardi Gras without riot gear. So nothing used to defend these officers and what actions I saw is going to easily change my mind unless it is incredibly compelling.

10.1 Million People in 2004

And you're going to make me believe that riot gear and shooting rubber bullets was appropriate with this piddly number of people?


Not likely :shk:

[edit on 8/19/06 by niteboy82]


TG

posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 04:52 PM
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i think the police were right to shoot, the protestors were clearly casuing trouble



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 05:10 PM
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I don't what I'm talking about,eh? I'm a retired USAF Ammo troop whose lived and worked through out the world. I've seen the effects of protectionist trade policy in Europe which is higher prices and slow economic growth with fewer jobs for young Euros trying to improve their lives. A much larger percentage of young Euro college grads are working in the Middle East, Africa, Asia and the South Pacific because they can't find suitable employment their native European countries then their US counterparts. I've met German engineers in Korea, British and Austrian roughnecks in the UAE and a Dutch pharmacist in Australia. Their story were all the same, they only way they could get hired was to take work overseas because any jobs back home were allready taken by employees with more time on the job. They have to wait for a retirement or death to move back home. Its even worse now with the influx of trained professionals from the former Soviet Union.
Almost all American products face discriminatory tariffs and inspections from the EU and its lapdog, the WTO. IE Almost every herbal supplement that you can buy over the counter here in the US is strictly controlled by law in the EU. In Europe almost every standard household fixture is taxed when you purchase it and every year when its on your house, I'm talking about window screens and outside faucets. These are all socialists govt's scrambling to support much larger populations of poor than we face here in the US. If we're going to sell American products in overseas markets, then these discriminatory trade barriers have to come down.
If Americans want to truly create high paying jobs for Americans, they going to have to bite the bullet and create demand for American products both at home and abroad . In order to do this we're going to have to turn this nation into a net energy producer. That means taking back our financial system from the global corporate hegemony. The first step is to do this is to convince as many folks as possible join credit unions as opposed to banks. Credit unions are controlled by their members not corporate elites. Only after we have control of our finances, can we invest the enormous sums of money presently going into the global energy peddlers back into our economy to finance new more efficient ways to produce energy.

Lastly, have you ever been around a Cuban exile? South Florida is home to many Cuban exiles and they are virulently anti-Communist. I can't believe Ms. Ritter didn't know how her red dress and confrontational manner would effect some members of the police. I'm not excusing the police's shooting her with rubber bullets or the behavior afterwards. It was a cowardly act but she's a lawyer who's every bit as responsible for maintain the law and order as the cops.



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 05:45 PM
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Originally posted by LoneGunMan
For decon5, so the police are above the law?


Nope, and many police officers here have lost their jobs and ended up as criminals themselves. You just don’t hear a lot of it in the press as the city kind of down plays it. If you hang out with officers enough you’ll hear about it when it happens for certain though.

But now lets be honest here, you ever been pulled over and let go with a warning because they saw your firefighters badge in your wallet? I am sure you have, as I know I have been when they have seen my hospital ID card. So how is that any different, as both only apply to minor infractions and professional courtesy, and they dont happen that way everytime. Same way that your efforts to help an fellow firefighter are going to go in excess of what you would do for any other person, because that is a brother in arms. If an officer was in real trouble, neither his badge nor his position is going to save him from the law anymore then you or I.


Originally posted by LoneGunMan
Do they not wear masks to intimidate?


If I recall correctly, I have asked someone this before, and the answer was that only special ops entry teams can wear them as they often include undercover agents that were involved in the bust to begin with. This is so that they can be at the scene which they are often familiar with and not be identified.


Originally posted by LoneGunMan
Do you have a clue as to how far we are slipping in our freedom?


I don’t disagree with you on this point in the least, and I do believe that we need to do things about it, however people have to work within the constraints of the law or this stuff is going to happen. If they are willing to risk the consequences, then go for it, but don’t whine about it later on.


Originally posted by LoneGunMan
I work with cops all the time, they love me and the rest of the fire service, wish I could say thats how they feel about the rest of humanity though. You dont know what they think until you talk to them while theyre on the job and under stress. They think all of you are just a bunch of low-life animals that need to be tamed


They also seem to treat medical people a bit better then others as well.
I have had plenty of discussions with some of the guys I know and you are correct they consider most people to be sub-human. I have even heard it said by two of them that they could never work in the medical or rescue field as they could not sit there and show compassion to “those people” at crime scenes. As a matter of fact many years ago I got into an argument with one about how he was supposed to serve and protect the public. His reply to me was that if the police needed to be called then you were someplace or involved in something you should not have been doing in the first place in his opinion.


Luxifero


Originally posted by Luxifero
Very interesting; yes, let's have conditional protests that can be streamlined from public view and attention. In fact, this is what MLK should have been authorized to do as well: protest in a park.


I believe that when you file a petition for the permit you can choose the area where you want to picket. As they do not have the right to tell you that its ok to trespass on private property they allow you to do it in the nearest public area that does not obstruct the rights of others.

For instance they may allow you to picket on the easement of the property, but say you cannot go on to the street and obstruct traffic, and if you cross onto peoples private land they have the right to call the cops since your trespassing.



Originally posted by Luxifero
One man in a mask does not justify shooting arbritrary members of thos protest who were blatantly not wearing masks


Yes, one person breaking the rules and wearing a mask meant that it now falls under the law of being a public display meant to cause intimidation, and is now illegal. Check the laws I posted above. I am sorry to say it only takes one bad apple to ruin it for everyone, but that is in fact the case.


niteboy82


Originally posted by niteboy82
Mardi Gras goes off without a hitch, other cities that try never can claim the same from what I've seen. Somehow we can handle protests and rallies without riot gear.


It’s the same here with Ybor city, which is like a mini-version of your bourbon street, its funny how much better the authorities seem to handle things when the local government is making a profit off of it.


jeepin4x4girl


Originally posted by jeepin4x4girl
Okay, so if what you're saying is true about the rubber bullets, that doesn't sound like a very safe weapon at all. Now I'm guessing the rubber bullets have to be dispersed outwards in different directions to break up a big crowd, but imagine this scenario.....what if there was a small child amidst the group of protesters and the child was struck by a stray rubber bullet? How about innocent bystanders walking on the sidewalks past the protesters? You're probably going to tell me that the chances of a small child walking past a group of protesters on the street and being struck by a rubber bullet is unlikely, but come on, it's very possible, especially when you say that


I did not get the impression that they fly that far. He even asked me if I wanted to come try one out in his backyard against his fence. I don’t think he would have done that if it was going to ricochet all over the place and damage the fence. They fire out in a cone from the front, they have less power then a gun so they often have to bounce them off the ground before hitting the target from they way he explained it. They have enough force to be painful but they are only potentially lethal if you're hit in the temple or in the eye. So it is most likely about the same velocity as a B-B gun, or a high powered paintball gun, like in the 330 fps range I would guess.




[edit on 8/19/2006 by defcon5]



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 06:47 PM
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defcon5,

Mechanics of conditional protest mean little compared to the principle of the protest. This was not a violent protest and it's become quite apparant as is your bias towards the authorities. One masked man does not construe violence universaly, and those that believe as such are obviously lacking in observation skills and carefull analysis of the situation at hand; in short, they could not think criticaly and reacted in an inappropiate manner.

Conditional protest defeats the purpose of a protest, passive ones at that anyways. These people are protesting that is very important and those who disagree should understand the laws of relativism and more importantly fail to understand the detriment this war is causing on a global scale. To divert these protests into sanctioned areas to simply let them rant away from public attention is an indiscreet form of dissent.

Luxifero



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 06:51 PM
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Some of yall speak as if the cops just suddenly pull out their rubber bullets and just start shooting into the crowd... I'm pretty sure the cops warn the protesters to clear the streets, because other people need to use the street too and businesses on and around those streets are losing customers.



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 07:08 PM
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What I have come to the conclusion of is that we really can't get a conclusion to this unless we have more info. Monday I will try to make some phone calls to the involved parties and see if I can get some information on whether they had permits/what their permits entailed. That might help all of us in this debate, because if the law states that they should have had a permit to be on the streets, and they didn't, then there are questions we should address here. Point is, I don't think any of us have any info as of yet that can really prove our point, and more answers are needed. I'll be sure to put any information I get up here, and try to record the calls to put up.


It worked when I wanted to verify stories with Reuters, so maybe it will work here as well.



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 07:59 PM
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If they did have a permit, it would be a Outdoor Public Assembly Permit.

Here is info about it for Orlando, Florida. I'm pretty sure its the same deal in Miami.

www.cityoforlando.net...

In order to close a street, lane, or sidewalk, you have to notify emergancy serivces, and even hire your own off duty police to attend the assembly.

Also you have to pay.... 101-500 people with no alcohol is $100 with alcohol is $200.

The permit has to be made a full 60 days before the assembly.

I'm almost certain they didn't have a permit.

LoneGunMan - I'm supprize, since you are a fire fighter, that you haven't said anything about these permits. It's obvious that if they have a permit to close a street, and even have to create a Site Plan/Diagram that shows exactly the streets that will be closed, that the near by fire deparments will recieve these diagrams and requests in order to plan ahead their direct route to a emergancy call, so that their route doesn't conflict with on going public assemblies.

[edit on 19-8-2006 by LAES YVAN]



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 09:24 PM
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Originally posted by LAES YVAN
LoneGunMan - I'm supprize, since you are a fire fighter, that you haven't said anything about these permits. It's obvious that if they have a permit to close a street, and even have to create a Site Plan/Diagram that shows exactly the streets that will be closed, that the near by fire deparments will recieve these diagrams and requests in order to plan ahead their direct route to a emergancy call, so that their route doesn't conflict with on going public assemblies.



We do get a fax if the street is to be closed, but if the incident is happening on the street that the assembly is going on we will go down that street, ladders and Engines dont have too much trouble getting crowds to part way for us to get through. We get a little more respect than the police, until we start getting ordered to help with crowd control, if that happens in my city I will cease being a Firefighter here. I will not hurt people.



posted on Aug, 20 2006 @ 04:30 AM
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I already know that I'll be extremely unpopular for this posting, according to the Miami Herald,

"Miami police had 16 injuries, spokesman Delrish Moss said.

It's unclear how many Miami-Dade or BSO officers were hurt."

and

"Commander Armando Guzman, a 25-year-old police veteran and leader of the Miami Police Swat Team during FTAA, said officers faced violence that wasn't publicized.

Protesters set fire to freight pallets they placed on the street and fired ball bearings at police using ''wrist rockets,'' sophisticated high-velocity sling-shots, he said.

Demonstrators also flung pieces of brick and rebar at cops, said Guzman."

and

"Guzman witnessed the Ritter shooting.

'Unfortunately there were people between us and them,' he said.

``If you're in the middle, you're going to get hit.'"

Here's a link to that article: www.miami.com...

I would have to agree with the cops who were returning fire on the idiots launching ball bearings. I'm sorry that Ms. Ritter chose to stand between the violent protestors and the police. And I feel that had she the slightest sense of awareness of the situation around her (e.g. that idots behind her were firing on the police) perhaps she would have chosen to get out of the way. And this incident would not have occurred.

And now that I've painted a giant bullseye on my chest, let the flinging of insults in my direction commence. I can take anything the trolls can dish out.

I would have posted this sooner, but wanted to make sure I found the news article first.



[edit on 8/20/2006 by PapaHomer]



posted on Aug, 20 2006 @ 06:10 AM
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Originally posted by fred3110
ANOK my mam was in the miners riots and she says it was great but the police were brutal!! it was probably the last time the working class of britain wielded any power


The British police were pretty brutal at all the demo's I went to. Using horses to crush people or knock ppl down, random beatings of people with night sticks for no reason, beating ppl up after they were arested etc...

The authorities were scared, the 80's was probably the closest Britian has come to revolution since the last one...

Demonstrations/Protests were pretty scary at times, definately not a day out at the park...LOL

But protests do work, the poll tax is a great example. The popualtion cause such a stink over it the gov backed down at the last minute, and didn't enforce the new poll tax without saying anything.
It also cause the downfall of thatchers rain of terror on the British working class.




en.wikipedia.org...



posted on Aug, 20 2006 @ 12:45 PM
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Originally posted by LAES YVAN
If they did have a permit, it would be a Outdoor Public Assembly Permit.

Here is info about it for Orlando, Florida. I'm pretty sure its the same deal in Miami.

www.cityoforlando.net...

In order to close a street, lane, or sidewalk, you have to notify emergancy serivces, and even hire your own off duty police to attend the assembly.

Also you have to pay.... 101-500 people with no alcohol is $100 with alcohol is $200.

The permit has to be made a full 60 days before the assembly.

I'm almost certain they didn't have a permit.


I must assume that you have taken the oath of enlistment, or claim to be someone who has, by your avatar. If that is true, you are a treasonous liar (not an insult, just an observation of the law, you traitor.)

How you and your ilk can sit there and support statutes unconstitutional on their face when you took an oath to uphold and defend the constitution has me floored.

You and servicemen like you are a shame to your country, an abomination to the republic you whore to for a paycheck.

Any of you who want to support a statute over the constitution should probably either try to get the constitution amended the right way or go find a democracy to live in.

The masses, the sheep, they don’t rule in a republic. The sheep can vote in a statute, you can call it a law and claim it is legal, but in the end supporters of the constitution are the real patriots, have right and law on their side, and won’t be illegally regulated forever.



posted on Aug, 20 2006 @ 06:31 PM
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Originally posted by cavscout

I must assume that you have taken the oath of enlistment, or claim to be someone who has, by your avatar. If that is true, you are a treasonous liar (not an insult, just an observation of the law, you traitor.)

How you and your ilk can sit there and support statutes unconstitutional on their face when you took an oath to uphold and defend the constitution has me floored.

You and servicemen like you are a shame to your country, an abomination to the republic you whore to for a paycheck.

Any of you who want to support a statute over the constitution should probably either try to get the constitution amended the right way or go find a democracy to live in.

The masses, the sheep, they don’t rule in a republic. The sheep can vote in a statute, you can call it a law and claim it is legal, but in the end supporters of the constitution are the real patriots, have right and law on their side, and won’t be illegally regulated forever.


Do you seriously believe I would risk my life for a paycheck, and a bunch of people like you insulting me, calling me a treasonous liar and a traitor? Get a clue. I do what I do for reasons that don't include insults and materialzed objects such as money. Reasons that you will never experiance in your entire pathetic lifetime.

You are right, I did take oath to uphold and defend the constitution. You know what? The constitution hasen't changed! Can you tell me where on the constitution it says you can break any and all state laws while you protest? You can't.

The first amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Key word here... peaceably. Since when is starting fires, stopping traffic, obstructing sidewalks, shooting ball bearings with rist rockets at the authority, throwing bricks and rebar at the authority, and throwing human waste at the authority considered peacefull?

What if 220+ people came to your work, and did the above to you? And no matter what you told them, they were not going to listen? Trust me, you would want to use non-lethal force to get them to listen.

People like you don't deserve to live in the USA. Half of the US citizens don't even know the constitution, yet they break laws and claim it is justified because of their constitutional right. Once again, get a clue.

There have been many peacefull protests in this world with successfull outcomes. Usually because they didn't break any laws. If you want to protest, at least have a controlled protest and don't break any laws, and you wont get shot in the head with rubber pellets.

Blinded by your own hypocrisy you talk about sheep, when in fact YOU are one of many sheep - for seeing a small video and then jumping to conclusions. This is common with mindless, brainwashed, media controlled, followers.


Source: www.miami.com...

[edit on 20-8-2006 by LAES YVAN]



posted on Aug, 20 2006 @ 07:08 PM
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Originally posted by LAES YVAN
Do you seriously believe I would risk my life for a paycheck

You don’t risk your life, you are a sailor. Tell me when was the last time a sailor got blown up by an IED and in a separate incident shot, receiving two Purple Hearts within 7 months. You cant I am sure, so talk to me about risking your life when you actually see combat, skipper.


Reasons that you will never experiance in your entire pathetic lifetime.
Yeah, you are right, I probably never will experience the reasons you like boats. I do know that the reason I joined the cavalry was because I loved my country and the constitution. Then 9/11 happened and all of a sudden I wasn’t fighting against an armed invader, I was invading! And you know what? I left my soul over there, I brought Sadam City home with me, and I am damn sore about it, but more than that I absolutely cant stand, to the point wanting to pick up a riffle and fight again, you and you buddies who claim to be a defender of our country but wipe your ass with the constitution, and all from the "head" not on the ground, where people really are risking their lives.


You are right, I did take oath to uphold and defend the constitution. You know what? The constitution hasen't changed! Can you tell me where on the constitution it says you can break any and all state laws while you protest? You can't.


First, I never claimed that the constitution says you break any and all law. HOWEVER, if a statute is passed by the state, even if 100% of the people agree with it, it is not law if it goes against the constitution! How hard is that to understand?

ALSO, those rights are individual ones, not collective. Regardless of what someone else was doing, the woman was TARGETED while PEACEFULY demonstrating. That is very clear from the after-actions report we saw.



Key word here... peaceably. Since when is starting fires

They burned pallets. Doesn’t sound so violent to me.


stopping traffic,
Well, were they doing it by pointing RPGs at the vehicles? I don’t remember the "right to drive" appearing in the constitution. Actually most states say driving is a privilege not a right, so obviously my right to protest trumps your right to drive. Don’t like it? Sorry, it’s the constitution YOU swore to uphold and defend, to protect.


obstructing sidewalks
come on, you serious?


shooting ball bearings with rist rockets at the authority, throwing bricks and rebar at the authority, and throwing human waste at the authority
Prove the woman did any of those things. You can’t, because she didn’t. They were not firing into the crowd, they admitted at the end to targeting her, as an individual


People like you don't deserve to live in the USA.


I earned my citizenship in blood, NOT on a cozy safe boat.


[edit on 20-8-2006 by cavscout]





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