Kurds flee homes as Iran shells Iraq's northern frontier

Originally posted by jsobecky
Well, perhaps Turkey will be more agreeable to letting the US use their airbases in the future. They demand too much while offering little in return.

I'd say Turkey is more likely leave NATO and close Incirlik at this point in the game, since they are holding a strong hand and I doubt they fold under threats and bluffs.

• Turkey courts Mideast favor
• Turkish FM Gul Warns of Anti-western Backlash in Turkey
• Turkey builds ties to Arab countries

Maybe the EU better start holding out more carrots, since they need Turkey as a crossroads between the Middle East and the former Soviet oil producers, or the EU will be left to smooch Putin's booty.

• Newsweek: Turks don't want the EU anymore

Shutting down the new BTC pipeline is a Turkish ace in the hole.

• The War on Lebanon and the Battle for Oil?

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Jamuhn, yes I support terrorism in Kurdistans case, I believe that what they fight for is legit.

Turkey does suppress Kurds, they have for a very long time, they have massacred many in the past 100 years. The fact that they treat their Kurds so bad is one of the big reasons why they will not be admitted into the EU.

May I ask what it is about Kurds you don't like?

Turkey did, and as evinced from many posters here they are allowing them more freedom everyday. You can go anywhere in Turkey and see Kurds mingling normally with the Turks. I have seen it and I doubt you've even been to your so-called "Kurdistan" or their host countries.

So, since I don't support the PKK and its terror campaign, you think I don't like Kurds? Flawed logic on your part.

[edit on 19-8-2006 by Jamuhn]

Originally posted by Jamuhn


The Armenian genocide took place almost 100 years ago during Ottoman rule, not during the Turkish Republic.

Yes, but the modern Turkish state still refuses to come to terms with it or even acknowledge it as an event even as more and more Turkish historians are documenting it as historically true. There has been no reparations or even apology and it is certainly not taught in schools.

Originally posted by Jamuhn
As well, while I also disagree with Turkey's previous policies regarding the Kurdish, today they enjoy greater freedom for their culture.

Only because they had to to be considered for the EU. They may enjoy greater freedoms than before but it is quite restricted freedom. As long as they conform to Turkish rule of their homelands and do not demand independence or even autonomy will they allowed to exercise limited freedoms such as private use of their own language. But any organised resistance to the Turkish state by any minority for legitimate territorial rights will not be tolerated.

Originally posted by Jamuhn
As far as Ocalan, the terrorist leader of the PKK, he has a life sentence instead of the death sentence which was abolished in Turkey. And if you disagree with the way he is being held, then you probably disagree with Guantanamo and many other prisons as well.

Well, a life sentence is certainly an improvement on a death sentence. In a civilised modern state there should be no death sentence. However, prisoners are also entitled to human rights regardless of their crime. The punishment is their imprisonment. They should still be entitled to have access to their lawyers and families and not be kept in solitary confinement.

Yes, I disagree with the way many states treat their prisoners. The very existence of Guantanamo is illegal and what happens there is barbaric, immoral and illegal.

Originally posted by Jamuhn
All in all, once more details are provided instead of the short little blurbs with buzz words to condemn Turkey, it's obvious that Turkey is a modern state. As well, none of these issues you brought up have anything to do with supporting terrorism.

Turkey may well be a modern state but I do not see any reason not to condem some of the ways in which it is repressive and has used state terroism against its own citizens. Iraq was also a modern state under Saddam Hussein but it was also repressive and used terrorist means against its own citizens. The US is a modern state but also uses terrorism and supports (some) terrorists and terrorist states. While many of the reforms that Kamal Ataturk introduced into post feudal and post Ottaman Turkey were progressive and modern there are still lots of room for improvements (as there are in most states). One of the biggest issues is in the treatment of its non-Turkish nationals. Turkey seems on a par with Iran and Syria with regards to treatment of the Kurds and human rights abuses in general.




[edit on 18-8-2006 by Jamuhn]

Originally posted by money orderOne of the biggest issues is in the treatment of its non-Turkish nationals. Turkey seems on a par with Iran and Syria with regards to treatment of the Kurds and human rights abuses in general.

Your comments were generally well-balanced this time around except for the above statement. This may be your opinion (in my own an ill-formed one based on history and not the present) but many others think otherwise.

While Turkey has made sufficient progress to allow the start of negotiations for the accession of Turkey to the European Union, concerns remain. Turkey has been criticized by a number of international human rights organizations for its purported disregard for human rights [1]. However, according to the last EU report, 2005, Turkey has managed to be one of the top 10 countries in the world that are in line with the European Union Human Rights Council.

en.wikipedia.org...

The violations that occur in Turkey are far from what occurs in Syria and Iran, and to state otherwise is to either downplay the abuses in Syria and Iran, or to overexaggerate what has happened in Turkey. Frankly, I would find such a comment offensive if I were Turkish.

Originally posted by Jamuhn


The violations that occur in Turkey are far from what occurs in Syria and Iran, and to state otherwise is to either downplay the abuses in Syria and Iran, or to overexaggerate what has happened in Turkey. Frankly, I would find such a comment offensive if I were Turkish.

That may be so and it is a matter of degree. Where one stands on things may determine how one see the degree of difference. Subjectivity is involved in my assessment as with yours. But there are also objective violations and I think these need to be acknowledged even if there have also been improvements (good) and I see Turkey (and Syria and Iran) on the lower side of the scale with regards to human rights in general and minority rights in particular. I do not intend to offend any Turkish people by my comments (or Syrians or Iranians or anyone else for that matter) In my country I have known (and still do) Turks, Armenians (from Turkey and Soviet Armenia) and Kurds (from Turkey and Iran and Iraq and Syria) None of them seem to have had a happy life in their original homeland with the exceptions of the Soviet Armenians who seemed to have a degree of stability and cultural and financial prosperity that the others did not. I am not blind to my own country's shortcomings and would not be offended if they were to be pointed out by others. I do not identify myself with the state. I just know that I am a citizen of it and the world in general.

Turkey will turn into another Axis of evil as soon US and the present administration feels out of its butt to do it as usual.

Resolutions of Kurdish Independence Conference in Kurdistan


Sunday, January 08, 2006

www.kurdmedia.com...

The Kurds do not like US but they want US and UK business, they got out of the invasion of Iraq what they wanted to make their Kurdish state, let US turn against their establishment and they will fight back in hard bit against the US. . . why the kurds want the northern lands and Kurkuk . . .guess why.

The Kurdish has no interest in becoming part of Iraq, they want the annexation of Kirkuk and that one will have to be seen by the Iraqi government and Arab majority allowing that.

Why they want and independent Kurdish state? Why the want the annexation of kurkuk? Very simple is OIL.

With oil they will turn into a very profitable nation that will be more than glad to sell to the highest bidder.

They have promised UK and US to be business partners . . . and perhaps that is the reason US and even UK are turning their heads to any acts of violence or whatever raises coming from that area as long as it doesn’t affect their Kurds.

People needs to learn the real facts about the whole Kurdish issue. I have been following their steps for quite a while because like I said a long time ago they will be something to watch.

This people already has said that they do not want Arabs in their territories ( another Israel state but with oil?) they have been running away Iraqis from the area already while establishing their hold and building villages.

But let no forget that the Kurds claim that they were run off from Kurkuk during Saddam's rule and Arabs took their lands.

The rapidly expanding settlements, composed of two-bedroom concrete houses whose dimensions are prescribed by the Kurdish parties, are effectively re-engineering the demography of northern Iraq, enabling the Kurds to add what ultimately may be hundreds of thousands of voters ahead of a planned 2007 referendum on the status of Kirkuk. The Kurds hope to make the city and its vast oil reserves part of an autonomous Kurdistan.

www.washingtonpost.com...

But U.S. military officials, Western diplomats and Arab political leaders have warned the parties that the campaign could work to undermine the nascent constitutional process and raise tensions as displaced Kurds settle onto private lands now held by Arabs.

Yeap Another Israel state in the making
Peace people? You get the facts and then make an opinion.

The Kurds are not one single group they are composed of two main groups that they have been known to be brutal to each other.

What US is doing? Just looking the other way and trying to keep peach with the Arabs in KirkuK while fighting to get control of Iraq for the Iraqi government.

They can not have the Peaceful and poor Kurds look bad

"The Arabs will not give up Kirkuk," said Mohammed Khalil, the leader of an Arab bloc within the Kurdish-dominated Kirkuk provincial council. "If America really wants to help Iraq, it will try to stop the Kurds from gaining control over Kirkuk, which would start a civil war."

Now they are united again because they wanted to take advantage of what US gave them, but as any tribal group once they get their independence they will once get into each other and fight for power.

Originally posted by Nygdan
Its really irrelevant what the terror groups want. THe PLO wanted a political homeland, the IRA wanted a United Ireland, the kurd terror groups want a homeland, they all kill innocent women and children in order to punish a population they perceive as evil.

About time they model themselves after the American Democracy that accomplished the same with the killing of millions of native Americans.

Originally posted by jsobecky

Originally posted by loam
I'll never understand those who blindly follow leadership and equate criticism of that leadership as an alignment with the other depraved idiots in the world.

loam, your problem is that you automatically jump on Bush as the source of the world's problems,

WRONG. Not the world's problems....OUR problems. There is more fraud, waste and abuse than you can shake a stick at... We are LESS secure... We are LESS protected from the potential abuse of power... We are dedicating our national attention (to the exclusion of all else and for generations to come) to a perpetual 'war on terror' with no clearly defined and achievable end... The fundamentals of our economy are weakening... America's position in the world is weakening!

Your ridiculous focus on the "source" of the problem *is* the problem! You use it as an excuse to absolve Bush and his administration from their responsibility to behave in our national interest...to "fix" things...Simple enough for you? Show me where they have materially done that, and not the opposite. This leadership has even stopped pretending... And you call my thinking shallow?

We need real leadership! Not the self-interested, incompetent, graft-giving, tic-tac-toe cabal now at the top.

Originally posted by jsobecky
Don't attack me for your inability to criticize terrorism when it raises it's head.

What a juvenile and pathetic misrepresentation... Nice try, but I'm not biting.

Originally posted by jsobecky
The next thing is, you'll be calling yourself one of the "true patriots"

Apparently, *that* term has lost all meaning...along with the term "conservatism"...



[edit on 21-8-2006 by loam]

I wonder if this has anything to do with Israeli security teams and Israeli companies doing work there?

It is from 2005 but still possible its going on there.

Israelis trained Kurds in Iraq


Yediot Ahronot,

First Published: 09:35 , 1 December 2005

Exclusive: A number of Israeli companies have won contracts with the Kurdish government in northern Iraq to train and equip Kurdish security forces and build an international airport, Yedioth Ahronoth reports; al-Qaeda warning of attack prompts hasty exit of all Israeli instructors from region Anat Tal-Shir

Dozens of Israelis with a background in elite military combat training have been working for private Israeli companies in northern Iraq where they helped the Kurds establish elite anti-terror units, Israel’s leading newspaper Yedioth Ahronot revealed Thursday.

According to the report, the Kurdish government contracted Israeli security and communications companies to train Kurdish security forces and provide them with advanced equipment. Motorola Israel and Magalcom Communications and Computers won contracts with the Kurdish government to the tune of hundreds of millions of U.S. dollars. The flagship of the contracts is the construction of an international airport in the northern Kurdish city of Ibril, a stepping stone towards the fulfillment of Kurdish national aspirations for independence. In addition to Motorola and Magalcom, a company owned by Israeli entrepreneur Shlomi Michaels is in full business partnership with the Kurdish government, providing strategic consultation on economic and security issues.

The strategic consultation company was initially established by former Mossad chief Danny Yatom (Labor) and Michaels, yet Yatom sold his shares upon his election to the Knesset.

But that’s not all. Leading Israeli companies in the field of security and counter-terrorism have set up a training camp under the codename Z at a secret location in a desertic region in northern Iraq, where Israeli experts provide training in live fire exercises and self-defense to Kurdish security forces.

Source

Regenmacher,
heres another solution to the problem you pointed out.


"Maybe the EU better start holding out more carrots, since they need Turkey as a crossroads between the Middle East and the former Soviet oil producers, or the EU will be left to smooch Putin's booty".

How about, bring Russia into the fold, embrace it and all it stands for as a fledgling democracy, and build bridges that were trampled on during the cold war?

I'd rather trust a country like Russia than the Turks quite frankly. And as for Europe having to dangle a carrot, well deny Turky EU membership will be the smartest thing in the history of the EU.

Turky is a sleeping Trojan horse - They will be the power base of the enemy within, and the start of the Islamification and domination of Europe. Mark my words, Turkey is an enemy with a smiley face. Even Gaddafi from Libya flagged up warning bells over Turkey.

As for the Kurds, well if they want a country, rebuild Iraq and join in the prosperity peace would bring.

Originally posted by D4rk Kn1ght
How about, bring Russia into the fold, embrace it and all it stands for as a fledgling democracy, and build bridges that were trampled on during the cold war?

Russia might be a safer bet, unless they partner up with IndoChina for a world domination gambit. Then being dependent on them is a serious handicap.

Oil needs makes strange bedfellows and war breeds chaos, so your guess is as good as mine how all this unfolds. Roll the bones...