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The Pope rules the land.

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posted on Aug, 17 2006 @ 05:22 PM
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Why is it that the Pope was the one to give away "South America",The countries he gave them to were Spain and Portugal, and why was it that France & England were "explicitly refused"
the right ?

more detailed info

the Pope also stated that Nations under Christianity were to be "untouched", does the word untouched mean that they were to touch not to pillage and steal the gold of this land though any non-christian lands/civilizations (Aztecs/Incas was acceptable) did these civilisations and cultures cease to exist POST-CONQUISTADOR era, I think a term for this today would be Genocide, or even Holocaust





The leaders of Spanish expeditions to the New World called themselves conquistadores, a name expressing the similarity of conquests in the New World to the recently accomplished reconquista, the Christian crusades to conquer or (re)conquer the Iberian peninsula from the Muslim Moors, recently sealed with the conquest of Granada, 1492). The conquistadors also invoked the name of Santiago Matamoros ("St James the Moor-killer") before going into battle against the native population of the Americas, who were considered without rights as long as they were "pagan" not converted to Catholicism: their lands were annexed as belonging to Christendom with papal blessing, the only rival claim to be taken seriously was that of the Portuguese, settled after papal arbitration in the Treaty of Tordesillas in 1494.



Why is it that France & England were refused?


When the Pope gave part of South America to Spain and the other to Portugal in the Treaty of Tordesilla




posted on Aug, 17 2006 @ 08:37 PM
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?
England and France had no basis for a claim, the lands had been discovered and explored largely by the spanish and portugeuse. The papacy was a religious and wordly power at the time, so the lands the the catholic kings found, they found for the papacy, just like they ruled over spain and its catholic people for the papacy.

England rejected the church and left it, so of course, the papacy wouldn't do anything for it. France was rejected because it had nothing to do with it. The spanish and portuguese kings, while they technically found the land for the papacy, they were powers unto themselves. What could the pope in italy really do about it, if it wanted to give these lands to all the catholic kings? The iberian monarchs would refuse and it probably would've caused a reformation in spain, rather than in england!
So the papacy had to be realistic, hold on to power, and also dole it out in a practical way, favouring the incredibly powerful spanish empire.



posted on Aug, 18 2006 @ 08:27 AM
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England rejected the church and left it


Do you mean by that the fact that England decided to turn into a predominantly Protestant country?, if you do then you should know that the Pope gave these rights in 1494 by signing the Treaty(which you would have known if you had read it properly), Protestantism (in its earliest form) didnt come into place until 1521, the same year the Spanish reached what is todays Mexico and between 1520-21 they conquered the Aztecs and Incas basically wiping them off the earth.

Go to History a bit further down



the lands had been discovered and explored largely by the spanish and portugeuse. The papacy was a religious and wordly power at the time, so the lands the the catholic kings found, they found for the papacy



The Spanish only reached the South American mainland in 1512, so they had not "discovered and explored".




The papacy was a religious and wordly power at the time


Is it not still???



France was rejected because it had nothing to do with it.


I dont get what your saying there mate, what do you mean "had nothing to do with it", so what had Spain and Portugal to do with it[/i



----------------------------------

Look at Exploration & Colonisation

France & England refused explicitly any access to the new land

----------------------------------

[edit on 18-8-2006 by marcopolo]



posted on Aug, 18 2006 @ 08:00 PM
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Originally posted by marcopolo
the Pope gave these rights in 1494 by signing the Treaty(which you would have known if you had read it properly), Protestantism (in its earliest form) didnt come into place until 1521,

Yes I confused my timeline.


Is it not still???

Its a temporal power over Vatican City today, in the past, over most of europe.



I dont get what your saying there mate, what do you mean "had nothing to do with it", so what had Spain and Portugal to do with it

Since France hadn't explored any of south america, it had nothing to do with it.


France & England refused explicitly any access to the new land

Are you asking, why was France and England explicitly denied, while, say, the netherlands or the german states or Venice weren't explicitly named?
Spain and Portugal were the larger exploring nations at the time, and england and france would come in with decent showing behind that, thus probably warranting consideration and special mention.

What is your theory?



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 05:30 AM
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First of all,



Since France hadn't explored any of south america, it had nothing to do with it.


Neither had Spain or Portugal.




Are you asking, why was explicitly denied, while, say, the netherlands or the german states or Venice weren't explicitly named?


I get what your saying there
, but the fact that France and England were explicitly refused suggests that their was something going on.


------

I dont have a theory though I dont understand why the Pope specifically refused these countries the chance to expand?, If it was because Spain was the superpower of the day then I still dont get it ?, Who is the Pope to say (without being ignorant or cheeky) whether expanding countries such as France & England are allowed to explore or not, My only theory without getting carried away would be that their was some sort of corruption or favourability towards Spain/Portugal.



posted on Aug, 20 2006 @ 06:45 AM
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some factors may have been
the almost 100 year "captivity" of the papacy in france following the trials of the templars.

Phillippe s manipulation of the papacy.

The "reformation" may well have started as early as 1370 in england with Strawe,
Ball, the Lollards, and several others.

There were also the libraries and learning centers associated with the Medici family and
others.



posted on Aug, 20 2006 @ 12:38 PM
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There were also the libraries and learning centers associated with the Medici family and others.


Okay, I undertsand that they were influencial but they were Italian, so why would they favour the Spanish/Portugese.




some factors may have been
the almost 100 year "captivity" of the papacy in france following the trials of the templars.


Sorry I am very unclear of what that meant
, could you clarify please





The "reformation" may well have started as early as 1370 in england with Strawe,



Do you mean the uprising of Protestantism?....I am still unclear about this also



posted on Aug, 21 2006 @ 07:25 AM
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Originally posted by marcopolo



There were also the libraries and learning centers associated with the Medici family and others.


Okay, I undertsand that they were influencial but they were Italian, so why would they favour the Spanish/Portugese.

actually Venetian as I recall. But the point is this, the knowledge and information was passed back and forth across the Pyrenees into Southern France. and more specifically the Lorraine and/ or Languedoc. The House of Lorraine
on several occasions came close to overthrowing the Capatian monarchs of France.
Finally becomming aligned with the Hapsburgs of Germany or more specifically for the time The Holy Roman Empire. This area and Alsace during this period wasa
constant battle ground between france and Germany ( my own family came from this area when it was German) There are some that would say that this constant
strugle carried on to a termination with the 30 yrs war and Fredrick Elector Palatine who was a leader in cabalistic , Hermetic , and Alchemical studies.[/b


some factors may have been
the almost 100 year "captivity" of the papacy in france following the trials of the templars.


Sorry I am very unclear of what that meant
, could you clarify please


for almost 100 years the papacy was resident in france. from the time of Phillipe le Bel on. During this time the majority of the Cardinals were French as were the popes that were elected. As I recall during this period only 1 pope even visited rome. Many historians call this period the "Papal Captivity".


The "reformation" may well have started as early as 1370 in england with Strawe,



Do you mean the uprising of Protestantism?....I am still unclear about this also


The uprising in question is refered to as the Peasants revolt.(ca. 1370) Some of the names associated with it are Fr John Ball, Fr. Jack Strawe, the leader (elected) Wat Tyler, and an organization identified only as " The Grand Society". This "revolt was
begun as a "protest" against the largess of the "high level " church administration.
Not to start a new religion but to change the practices of the old one. One of the
battle cries if you will of these Protest-ants was "If Jesus walked , why do Bishops ride?" Another was "Why when Jesus commanded Give also your shirt do Cardinals
live in opulence?"

The Protestant reformation was born out of people wanting the church to return
to the old , basic religion, not a desire for a new religion.( much the same as R.Jeshua preached in his time).

Mod Edit: BB Code.

[edit on 21/8/2006 by Mirthful Me]



posted on Aug, 21 2006 @ 10:45 AM
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Okay that does explain quite a bit
thanks stalkingwolf for your input



posted on Aug, 21 2006 @ 05:42 PM
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glad to be of help.




posted on Aug, 21 2006 @ 05:53 PM
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Originally posted by marcopolo
First of all,



Since France hadn't explored any of south america, it had nothing to do with it.


Neither had Spain or Portugal.




Are you asking, why was explicitly denied, while, say, the netherlands or the german states or Venice weren't explicitly named?


I get what your saying there
, but the fact that France and England were explicitly refused suggests that their was something going on.


------

I dont have a theory though I dont understand why the Pope specifically refused these countries the chance to expand?, If it was because Spain was the superpower of the day then I still dont get it ?, Who is the Pope to say (without being ignorant or cheeky) whether expanding countries such as France & England are allowed to explore or not, My only theory without getting carried away would be that their was some sort of corruption or favourability towards Spain/Portugal.







Ok, well Spain and Portugal did discover and explore South America actually? Where do you see otherwise?

Also the only reason that the church interviend was simply because Spain and Portugal where ready to go to war over where the boundry was going to be on whos territory. England and France where in no way part of the argument? The Pope split the land, giving what he though the more productive land to Spain, he was very very wrong, Portugal got the Brazilian area, much better then the lands Spain got. The decision kept both sides happy.



posted on Aug, 21 2006 @ 06:07 PM
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Ok, well Spain and Portugal did discover and explore South America actually? Where do you see otherwise?


Yes they did eventually, they had never set foot in any part of The American mainland, not before the whole Pope shinanigans, which has already been discussed.



posted on Aug, 24 2006 @ 06:33 AM
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There was also a TITLE issue involved somewhere.
finally setteled with one king being given the right to the title
"His most Catholic Highness" and the other
"His Most Christian Highness" but I dont remember which
was which.



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