Illegal Aliens Killing 25 American Citizens Per Day

I have posted a podcast reply to Mr. Wupy's accusations of me being a racist in an audio mp3 file member podcast here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

or you can click directly here to start the file and hear the rant.

ivanterrible
First, let me thank you for your efforts earlier in the thread by digging up all those links. And also you should know that I am not discouraged by those that choose to miss the forest and instead fixate on a tree. But your encouragement is appreciated.

This last story here that you present certainly makes several points. One of which is that being an American citizen means more than just having a convenient meal and shelter ticket. The structure of the government and Constitution are vital to understanding and becoming part of the successful nation that America has become. And the rule of law is a vital component of that. If illegal immigrants cannot see that, and cannot respect those laws enough to acquire citizenship legally, then why, logically, should they be admitted as a citizen into the society?

Concerning the individual cases presented in the article, I have mixed feelings about them, because of the current legal interpretation of the 14th Ammendment, as it applies to "anchor babies." I love their patriotism and what they have shown the American people, but I am not sure, along with many others, that given the history and purposes for which the 14th Ammendment was intended, that the argument for anchor babies acquiring unilateral citizenship holds any water. Many people feel, and with good reason given that history, that the law has been misinterpreted to suit political and economic agendas.

edit: add one missing word

[edit on 19-8-2006 by TrueAmerican]

TA your pod cast was great, well actually better then great, fantastic i more like it. On a scale of one to ten I would give it a twelve. I cannot wait to hear mr wupy's reply, well that is if he reply's that is.

Originally posted by shots
I cannot wait to hear mr wupy's reply, well that is if he reply's that is.

You know, I was going to drop this but when you come up with junk like this it just has to be replied to. You feel that if you ignore facts long enough that those who become fatigued by trying to discuss with you leave, that you have won. Well, others read this too, my consolation. Now, just so you HAVE your reply:

Originally posted by shots


BTW why didn't you admit your error in math

[edit on 8/19/2006 by shots]

The error is NOT mine. I'm sorry that your educational system didn't do you justice.

Originally posted by intrepid

You know, I was going to drop this but when you come up with junk like this it just has to be replied to.

Just what kind of junk are you talking about?

The error is NOT mine. I'm sorry that your educational system didn't do you justice.

What are you talking about? When did you graduate? I graduated in the mid fifties.

Times have changed so has the educational system so to fault my education shows that you are not aware of those changes.

Have you ever thought perhaps it is your educational system? No I do not think so you would rather blame the US system.

BTW as a moderator, I hope you realize you are now taking the topic way off from the authors intention so could you please for his/her sake sake please stick to the topic at hand rather then try and pick on others as you so often do.

Do you know how many illegal aliens/immigrants kill Canadians intentionally or by accident each year?

Do you ralize that immigrantion from Mexico is on the rise in Canada. Yup sure is Ontario, BC and other urban areas to be exact. You might want to watch for them popping up on corners looking for work. Once you see them, even you will know how easy they are to spot.



[edit on 8/20/2006 by shots]

I really didn't want to post in this thread but then you went and mentioned how Mexicans were coming to Canada.

Yes, yes they are. On work permit programs. We recognize that we can't get Canadians to pick fruit for the wages paid, so we bring Mexicans up, give them medical, deduct taxes from their wages and allow them to send money home to their families. They always end up leaving though, they say it's too cold up here for them (and that's in the summer ).

And yes, 20,000 million is 20 billion. Simple multiplication. There are 6 zeros in a million and 4 in 20,000. Multiply them and you get a number with 10 zeros. The result is 20,000,000,000.

I understand where your coming from with all the patriotism hoopla and thinking your innocent for beign born in this "great country" SURE. Yes illegal aliens are getting in this country, and have been for YEARS. But wait, what do you think those illegal aliens come to America for? To run you over, stab you and kill you? No, i really doubt it. They come here to make some money, and get the hell out. Some stay. True, for maybe a better life? Yeah okay. Just to be constantly put down time after time for not beign born here, for not beign born in a better place. I immigrated from Poland when i was 6 and lived here ever since, and i been breaking my back recently to make a living, doing jobs for money an america would'nt even frown upon, but enough of my ranting.

truth of the matter is the mexican, canadian borders need to be better protected, yes, i also agree on that fact that those 37,000 soilders in north korea whatever are just wasting their time, America has always been the "police force of the world" trying to do good whereever they can help, But coincidentaly have no idea how to protect themselves, "9/11". And no i Love america but im not staying here just to be cheap labor anymore, im doing what i should have done years ago, racking up cash and going back home. Because believe me, after a while the american dream for an immigrant becomes a nightmare. My point is, if you want illegal immigrants out, make getting into the US legally easier, yes i said it. With limits, such as criminal background checks, whatever. Or just protect the borders better, don't waste time and effort and lives where they don't need to.

God Bless Ameri ...Democracy?

shots
Hey thanks, glad you liked the podcast. I hated it. I hated to have to do it. But I did. I don't know what intrepid is talking about either, honestly. He buzzed in here fixated on a typo, that he claims was intentional, and for him that immediately transformed the article into a hate piece. So now a typo makes an article a wack job. Aight. Moving right along....What concerns me is that he Majically gets away with calling me immature, another personal attack. I must say, things are wierd around here lately. I am trying to abide by the T&C as best I can, even in the face of not one but TWO moderators personally attacking me. Aight. Moving right along....And Seeing as intrepid has given you a reply that was to one of your responses to me about Mr. Wupy replying, (in other words, unrelated), your guess is as good as mine. I be confused. But not microphoneless.

Anyway, despite what some may say great thread TA, good job on keeping this issue relevant and in discussion. Nice pod casts too.

Let's Not Label Each Other, Please

I know it's all too easy to point the finger and cry "racist!" -- I've done it myself and far too recently.

But let's please try to avoid going off-topic with attacks on other members and focus instead on the issues that have been raised here.

We're only human -- including mods -- but we're all responsible for respecting one another and the T&C, even when the issues strike a nerve and make our blood pressure rise.

So please, let's be nice and remember that all members are entitled to express their opinions without fear of reprisal.

Topic: Illegal Aliens Killing 25 American Citizens Per Day

Not which of us are allegedly racists.

The illegal immigrants pouring into this country are a serious concern and an issue that should be approached with a level head. Unfortunately, most of the shrillest voices appear to be colored by ethnicism and nationalism. The OP's supporting article clearly singles out a specific group;

That daily figure adds up to 9,125 deaths annually caused primarily by illegal alien Mexicans residing in America.

emphasis added by MrPenny

In 2004, 16,694 persons were killed in the U.S. by drunk drivers in general. That appears to be a much larger problem.

It may have been a good move for the OP to distance himself from the article a bit. Using it as his support tends to add some 'flavor' to his words.

If millions of white, English speaking Canadians were slipping across our northern border there would be zero issue. The article cited in the beginning of this thread is nothing more than furthering the attempt to stir up the emotions of the masses. Seems obvious since the numbers given aren't attributed to any studies or demographic programs. They look like they were simply pulled out of the writer's butt. If he can't get 20 million correct, how can I trust any other number?

Huge migratory waves have been occurring for centuries on this planet. It is always driven by the desire to make a better life somewhere else. That's what is happening now.

The illegal immigrants are doing what they can get away with in order to try to have better lives. It is tragic and certainly avoidable when any of them cause death or injury to an American citizen. However, when logically compared to other avoidable causes of death in this country, it is statistically irrelevant.

What's not irrelevant is the failure of our legislators and law enforcement organizations to adequately staff the borders and to put regulations in place that serve to put the greatest dent in illegal immigration....the companies that hire them and exploit them.

They are human beings, millions of them have no interest in stealing, murdering, raping, or pillaging. Crossing the border without proper documents is not considered to be a criminal action, it is an administrative issue. They are not tried in a criminal court with defense representation, and they are not sent to prison if found to be in violation of immigration laws. They are rightfully deported.

I find attempts to de-humanize entire groups of people disgusting and shameful. And that unfortunately, is how I read most of the vitriolic screeds about illegal immigration.

TA,

I have "No Dog in this Fight," and only want to say..

You have a wonderful voice for broadcast! I found it compelling and articulate.

Do some more on general topics, I would really love to listen. I am a HUGE fan of talk radio.

Semper

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
The condition of being illegal in the US has nothing at all to do with race. It's all about citizenship.

Thank you for your observation. It's also about crime.

If someone enters a country illegally, they're a criminal. They must forge documents in order to get jobs -- another federal crime. The honest, hard-working immigrants (Mexican or otherwise) enter this country legally, learn English so they can communicate with the majority of Americans, and otherwise improve our country.

Illegals, on the other hand, are a significant source of crime in the Southwest (and in other areas, as they spread to the rest of the States). I live in Arizona, and we're the ones who see firsthand how Hispanics are on the news just about every day for committing crimes. Yes, there are black and white criminals too, but most of them are Hispanic. That's not racism, that's just a matter of listening to the news and hearing the non-stop litany of Hispanic names associated with violent crimes.

The media was all over the two white guys who were arrested for the shootings in Phoenix, yet the Hispanic "Baseline Killer" (who's a very violent rapist as well) also terrorizing Phoenix gets virtually no coverage in the national media. Nor do you hear about the 4 Hispanics who were recently seen dragging a 12-year-old girl into an SUV, before they drove off and gang-raped her. And so on, ad nauseum.

Our first van was stolen in 1999 by Mexicans, who abandoned it in a border town when it broke down. And we got off lucky, in that nobody was in the vehicle at the time, so no violent attack took place.

When you have to live with the swarm of illegal criminals coming in to your back yard, you're not "racist". You just want to be safe in your own community. I've always been fascinated by people of other races and other cultures; I study other languages, I listen to music in other languages, I willingly surround myself with people who are black, Middle-Eastern, Asian, and Hispanic. But I draw the line at allowing people to come here illegally and commit crimes, no matter WHAT race they are.

Originally posted by MrPenny
If millions of white, English speaking Canadians were slipping across our northern border there would be zero issue.

That's absolutely not true. If those Canadians were slipping across our border illegally and taking our jobs at lower wages, overcrowding our ER's (also being unable to pay for their treatment, a problem forcing many hospitals into bankruptcy), and adding insult to injury by expecting us to incorporate French-language education in our schools...people would be VERY upset.

Originally posted by MrPennyThe illegal immigrants are doing what they can get away with in order to try to have better lives. It is tragic and certainly avoidable when any of them cause death or injury to an American citizen. However, when logically compared to other avoidable causes of death in this country, it is statistically irrelevant.

Nobody's death is "irrelevant". You need to read up on the percentages of illegals who come here because they're directly involved in crime, and/or can't get here legally because they have criminal records as long as your arm.

Originally posted by MrPennyWhat's not irrelevant is the failure of our legislators and law enforcement organizations to adequately staff the borders and to put regulations in place that serve to put the greatest dent in illegal immigration....the companies that hire them and exploit them.

Cry me a river. Nobody's forcing them to take lower wages. They do it so they can get hired more readily.

Originally posted by MrPennyCrossing the border without proper documents is not considered to be a criminal action, it is an administrative issue.

It's a violation of federal law. The only reason these people aren't in prison is that we simply can't afford to house millions of prisoners. Deportation is a pretty serious punishment; it's just that these illegals know that our legal system is overburdened, so their odds are good that they'll make it eventually, if they keep sneaking in.

Originally posted by MrPennyI find attempts to de-humanize entire groups of people disgusting and shameful. And that unfortunately, is how I read most of the vitriolic screeds about illegal immigration.

Nobody's dehumanizing anybody. We're fully aware that they are intelligent human beings perfectly capable of making the right decisions...and deliberately choosing not to make them. Whether they're part of the movement to "take back their land", or undercutting American workers by taking lower wages, or forging documents to get jobs, welfare, etc....they're not animals. They're human beings whose actions pose a threat to other humans who choose to live according to the laws of the land.

Originally posted by silverojo
The media was all over the two white guys who were arrested for the shootings in Phoenix, yet the Hispanic "Baseline Killer" (who's a very violent rapist as well) also terrorizing Phoenix gets virtually no coverage in the national media.

Where does the "Hispanic" come from? The latest description released by police for the "Baseline Killer"....

They say he's a dark-skinned male, 25 to 30 years old and 5 feet 10 inches with a light to medium build. He is also said to wear long-sleeved shirts.

source

The ethnicity of the perpetrator is not mentioned.

Originally posted by silverojo
Deportation is a pretty serious punishment; it's just that these illegals know that our legal system is overburdened, so their odds are good that they'll make it eventually, if they keep sneaking in.

One more thing. Do some homework before spouting your jingoistic rhetoric. Since when is being loaded onto a bus or plane for transport to your native country "pretty serious punishment"? It might be if the air conditioning breaks down. Come on, you can do better than that. Plus, deportation isn't the easy choice for immigration courts. It is currently the only choice. People can't be thrown in jail simply for not having a visa or passport.

I'm not happy with millions of illegal immigrants being in this country either. My ancestors came through Ellis Island legally. I'm also not happy with people who take a stand without investigating the issues deeply, critically, and fairly.

The illegal point is simply moot...why? I better explain why before someone tries and fails to flame me...here I go...

As you might recall...the US was formed and built by MIGRANTS (thought using some caps might help read.) Illegal, if you want to think so, since they chose the natives land as theirs, and exterminated them.

They had a "war" with them, killing cartloads of them, finally getting them into "reserves".

Then, they saw the North of Mexico, and decided as well, it was theirs too. They decided to help the "republic" of Texas, composed mainly of Illegal US citizens living in Mexican territory. So the US got Texas that way, and then said, not only Texas, but California, and Nuevo Mexico as well..

So in a way, at it's beginning, the US was all about migration . Anyway, all I said was just to prove my point, no offense intended at all, I'll keep the extinguisher at hand though...

You might also know there have always been migration towards the US, let me say that clearly... always . How did you get rid of the problem in the 1900's? You started to legalize migration, thus opening a way for loads of Europeans that wanted to live in the US. Yep, once upon a time, us Europeans wanted to live in the US, and I'm sure many of those whose families came that way to the US are grateful to the US for that, and helped the US by paying taxes, becoming members of society and even fighting in wars for that country that had taken them in. (I can speak personally about that, since a family member of mine fought with your boys in WW1).

That was the solution, legalization. As simple as that. A country with space, need for workforce and historical ties to migration, simply can't deny all that, and just start kicking those "evil" migrants. If you legalize the migrants, they pay taxes, you can arrest the criminals among them (as there are criminals among any group that is) more easily, and even so, some "illegals" go to fight your wars! Even when you demean them, they fight for your country!

Agreed, some of them might not be the best, but sincerely, most of them just want to work, and mean no harm, and if given a truly easy and practical way, they'd be all legal. Maybe I'll have to make that clear ALL .

Instead you call them criminals, and hunt them, even some extremist nuts made a group to hunt them in the border...unbeliavable...I truly hope someone reads this and makes sense to that someone... cheers

I don't have much to say about illegal aliens - other than to say it must be fixed somehow.

I do know, however, that many (not all) young people are essentially spoiled. In older days, teenagers would take any job; some needed to take any job to help support their families. Many of the illegal immigrants have an incredible work ethic and will take any job in the U.S.

I saw a post rightfully complaining that many fast food restaurants, etc., were hiring illegal aliens. Why aren't more of our teenagers taking those jobs? And why aren't people on welfare taking those jobs? (I am speaking only of those perpetually on welfare and able to work). It is not, I believe, so much that illegal aliens are taking jobs as opposed to there being job openings because some citizens believe such jobs are "beneath" them.

I realize this may only be a small part of the problem but it is, nevertheless, a part of the problem.

Originally posted by Ioseb_Jugashvili
The illegal point is simply moot...why? I better explain why before someone tries and fails to flame me...here I go...

As you might recall...the US was formed and built by MIGRANTS (thought using some caps might help read.) Illegal, if you want to think so, since they chose the natives land as theirs, and exterminated them.

They had a "war" with them, killing cartloads of them, finally getting them into "reserves".

Then, they saw the North of Mexico, and decided as well, it was theirs too. They decided to help the "republic" of Texas, composed mainly of Illegal US citizens living in Mexican territory. So the US got Texas that way, and then said, not only Texas, but California, and Nuevo Mexico as well..

So in a way, at it's beginning, the US was all about migration . Anyway, all I said was just to prove my point, no offense intended at all, I'll keep the extinguisher at hand though...

You might also know there have always been migration towards the US, let me say that clearly... always . How did you get rid of the problem in the 1900's? You started to legalize migration, thus opening a way for loads of Europeans that wanted to live in the US. Yep, once upon a time, us Europeans wanted to live in the US, and I'm sure many of those whose families came that way to the US are grateful to the US for that, and helped the US by paying taxes, becoming members of society and even fighting in wars for that country that had taken them in. (I can speak personally about that, since a family member of mine fought with your boys in WW1).

That was the solution, legalization. As simple as that. A country with space, need for workforce and historical ties to migration, simply can't deny all that, and just start kicking those "evil" migrants. If you legalize the migrants, they pay taxes, you can arrest the criminals among them (as there are criminals among any group that is) more easily, and even so, some "illegals" go to fight your wars! Even when you demean them, they fight for your country!

Agreed, some of them might not be the best, but sincerely, most of them just want to work, and mean no harm, and if given a truly easy and practical way, they'd be all legal. Maybe I'll have to make that clear ALL .

Instead you call them criminals, and hunt them, even some extremist nuts made a group to hunt them in the border...unbeliavable...I truly hope someone reads this and makes sense to that someone... cheers

Legalized migration is already available. It is illegal migration that many people have a problem with. I believe most people know this country was founded and enriched by migrants.

If one views, historically, the U.S. migration on Native American land and Mexico's land as a good thing, one can rationally use these examples, as you seem to do, to justify legalizing all migration.

If, however, one views in retrospect the U.S. migration on Native American land and Mexico's land as a negative thing, it cannot be rationally used as an example to legalize all migration.

I also believe most illegal immigrants only want to work and mean no harm. It is hard for many U.S. citizens to grasp the concept of people coming into the U.S. through the back door without at least first knocking at the front door and being given permission to enter. Some, not necessarily me, believe this is akin to walking into somebody else's house, lying down on a stranger's bed, and explaining it as "I'm only tired and want to sleep, I mean no harm". This may not reflect an attitude which will lead to harmony but it is surely understandable.

The U.S. has real security concerns about its border - there must be a solution that encourages legal and orderly immigration (or migration as you call it), simultaneously ensures an acceptable level of security, and that is the most fair to all.

[edit on 23-8-2006 by Blarney63]

Originally posted by Blarney63

Legalized migration is already available. It is illegal migration that many people have a problem with. I believe most people know this country was founded and enriched by migrants.

I never said Legalized migration was unavailable, it's simply not working...at all.

Current immigration policies are completely out of sync with the U.S. economy’s demand for workers who fill less-skilled jobs, especially in the case of Mexican workers. While U.S. immigration policies present a wide array of avenues for immigrants to enter the United States, very few of these avenues are tailored to workers in less-skilled occupations. It should come as no surprise, then, that immigrants come to or remain in the United States without proper documentation in response to the strong economic demand for less-skilled labor.

Among the findings of this report:

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, 48 percent of all job openings, some 27 million positions, between 2002 and 2012 “are expected to be held by workers who have a high school diploma or less education.”
Given that 12.5 percent of native-born adults age 25 and older lacked a high school diploma in 2003, compared to 32.8 percent of the foreign-born, it is clear that a large number of less-skilled jobs will be filled by immigrants.
According to the 2003 American Community Survey, Mexicans comprised 30.7 percent of all foreign-born workers in the United States, but amounted to 88.8 percent of the foreign-born labor force in “farming, fishing, and forestry”; 60.2 percent in “construction and extraction”; and 51.6 percent in “building and grounds cleaning and maintenance.”
Only one of the five categories of visas for permanent immigration status is tailored to less-skilled workers, and it is capped at 5,000 visas per year.

Only two of the 16 employment-based visa categories for temporary immigrant status are available to workers in industries that require little or no formal training. One (H2A) is restricted to agricultural workers and the other (H2B) is not only capped at 66,000, but is limited to “seasonal” or otherwise “temporary” work that is defined so restrictively as to disqualify workers in many industries.

So it's kinda funny, the US govt expects to see work handing out only 70,000 visas, when there is need for more workforce than that, and not enough US citizens to cover it. Most of those jobs openings need a high school diploma or lower. And I really want to believe that most of the US citizens are above that...

If one views, historically, the U.S. migration on Native American land and Mexico's land as a good thing, one can rationally use these examples, as you seem to do, to justify legalizing all migration.

If, however, one views in retrospect the U.S. migration on Native American land and Mexico's land as a negative thing, it cannot be rationally used as an example to legalize all migration.

Well, since that specifical pair of facts consist on how did the US aquire half their territory, I consider it was impossible not to mention them.

I'll also add that my point in bringing that up, apart from mentioning immigration, is...how different would it have been, if a treaty had been reached with the natives, and they had coexisted...instead of slaughtering them? Negotiation would have been the way to go, even back then.

I also believe most illegal immigrants only want to work and mean no harm. It is hard for many U.S. citizens to grasp the concept of people coming into the U.S. through the back door without at least first knocking at the front door and being given permission to enter.

Well...it's not like they knock the door, but simply, I'll go into your analogy, at a house nearby somebody needs a gardener, or a maid, or other unskilled job, so they come in, but another neighbor gets angry because they didn't have his permission, regardless of wether the person is needed or not.

Some, not necessarily me, believe this is akin to walking into somebody else's house, lying down on a stranger's bed, and explaining it as "I'm only tired and want to sleep, I mean no harm".

Well, it's a bit extremist to see inmigration that way...if they were legal, they'd be all paying their taxes, hence, not sleeping on anybody's "bed", but their own, and well earned ones as well.

This may not reflect an attitude which will lead to harmony but it is surely understandable.

May not? It reflects an attitude a fear to what's different...typical...understandable...I don't know about that.

The U.S. has real security concerns about its border - there must be a solution that encourages legal and orderly immigration (or migration as you call it), simultaneously ensures an acceptable level of security, and that is the most fair to all.

Well...if they are real or not, that's a different issue, but they have concerns about the border, and that's acceptabale, but see, Bush is a bit far from that solution...

The family-based immigration system is not capable of compensating for deficiencies in the employment-based system due to arbitrary numerical caps. In the case of Mexican nationals, wait times for visas under the “family preference” system are currently 7-10 years for the spouse of an LPR and 10-12 years for the unmarried adult child of a U.S. citizen.

So unless he decides to make that waiting line go down from 10-12 years, do not expect to see the migrant flow go legal, anytime, regardless of how many you arrest or not, simple because...there's a need, and there are people who fill that need. And that people are the "illegals"


[edit on 23-8-2006 by Blarney63]