Russia’s missile sale to Indonesia upsets DRDO

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posted on Aug, 17 2006 @ 01:45 AM
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Russia’s missile sale to Indonesia upsets DRDO

NEW DELHI, JULY 19:Moscow’s decision to sell anti-ship cruise missiles to Indonesia without keeping Indo-Russian joint venture BrahMos Aerospace in the loop has left many red faces at DRDO, the equal Indian partner in the company.

Apart from looking at Moscow’s proposed sale, as well as outside contractual bounds, DRDO is concerned that the sale would eat into the BrahMos missile’s market and therefore affect profits even before the missile has made its first sale abroad.

[..] DRDO perceives Moscow’s move to sell Yakhont missiles -- the prototype on which the BrahMos was developed -- to be inexplicable, since the programme was specifically entered into to ‘‘deploy BrahMos missile system in the Indian and Russian armed forces and also to export to friendly countries.’’

Source

The indonesians have ordered Yaknort missiles from russia and will be deployed on their Su-27 series of aircraft bought from russia a few years ago. These missiles will most likey change the status quo in SE asia in favour of indonesia and threaten US allies like singapore which had just recently agreed to buy F-15 aircraft. All these countries were and some still are proxies used by the superpowers in the cold war to either spread communism or inpeed its progress. The missiles being sold in question brings up another issue which starts off under a joint program between india and russia called the BrahMos

The BrahMos porgram was suppose to be a joint-project between russia and india. The russian sale of the Yakhont missiles leaves question whether the russians were just making india pay the RnD cost for the BrahMos missile so it could finish development of the Yakhont which is the export version of the russian Onik.

So the question is, are the russians going to try to sell the Yakhont missiles or is it going to help sell the BrahMos missile which would only see them get 50% profit. The BrahMos is a carbon copy of the Yakhont which questions the validity of a "joint-project". This also ask the question whether the russians will let the indians do the same with the PAF-FA program and brings into question the future or the russian defence industry.

Same missile with different paint



Does the russian defence industyy really intend to work with other countries or do they want RnD cash from technology inferior countries like india to pay for the missiles. This project was mutually benifitcal to both countries since Russia got its wish of RnD funds while india got a russia missile it can produce under a hefty license.

Considering the Yaknort-M was almsot a fully developed missile when it was taken and renamed the BrahMos the indians probaly got the better side of the stick. It has been known that the russians would cancel almost completed projects. Russia also seems to hold the source codes for the missile sicne the article below outlines the fact that have have withheld them from the indian military at one point


RUSSIA THREATENS TO RETAIN BrahMos SOURCE CODE

10 Oct 05. Russia has threatened that it will not give away the source code which will enable the supersonic Cruise missile BrahMos to be mounted on foreign made platforms, including the recently contracted French Scorpene or the Multirole Medium Range Combat Aircraft (MMRCA)which India is buying from the global market.

Sources in the Indian defense ministry say, Moscow has made it known to the Indian defense planners that there is no guarantee that it will allow India to mount the BrahMos cruise missile on third country platforms until the Intellectual Property Rights (IPR)dispute is settled.

This is from BATTLESPACE. UPDATE Vol.7 ISSUE 40



Yakhont Missile Specfications

- Length (m) 8.9
- Diameter (m) .7
- Range (km) 300 (high trajectory), 120 (low trajectory)
- Speed (Mach) 2-2.5
- Launch Weight (kg) 3,000 (2,500 for air-launched variant)
- Warhead (kg) 200-250



[edit on 17-8-2006 by chinawhite]




posted on Aug, 17 2006 @ 02:29 AM
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The current planes of the the Republic of Singapore Air Force (RSAF) include

- 62 F-16C/D Block 52
- 53 F-5 which have been upgraded to F-5S standard which itself is upgraded from the F-5E
- 12 (option for eight more) F-15SG

The most notable fighters in the indonesian airforce are the two Su-27 and two Su-30MK which were brought after the indonesians cancelled their followon order for 9 more F-16s. The other fighters being the 12 F-16s bought before the embargo and the Skyhawks.

The embargo was lifted in 2005 and indonesia has plans to re-activate its 37 A-4E planes into service once more. This could all chnage if the indonesians considers more Su-27 purchases once more.


Indonesian Air Force Wants 48 Sukhois: Military Chief

MOSCOW, April 23 Asia Pulse/Antara - The Indonesian Air Force requires 48 Russian-made Sukhoi fighter planes to enable it to secure the country and maintain its sovereignty, Indonesian military commander, Gen Endriartono Sutarto, said.

"Ideally, we should have four squadrons or 48 Sukhoi fighter planes and we hope to achieve the number in the next four years," Endriartono told newsmen here Tuesday night.

He said the Air Force has for the moment decided to buy two Sukhoi-27s, two Sukhoi-30s, and two MI-35 helicopters for a total value of US$197 million. Of the amount, he said some 12.5 per cent will be paid in cash, and the rest will be paid through a countertrade scheme. Indonesia's state Bank Bukopin has been tasked to loan the government US$21 million as bail-out fund to cover the cash payment, he said.

Source

The most interesting preposition is the fact indonesia is getting 300km anti-ship missiles when it does not face much threat from its neighbours or does it have other agendas for these missiles. Indoesia is situated next to the venerable malacca straits which transported 11 million barrels a day in 2003. Under these circumstances its very suspect that indonesia needs these "carrier killer" missiles when the threats on its coast are limited to stray fishing boats



The blue circle is Singapore
The green triangle is the malacca straits
The red line represents 300km



posted on Aug, 17 2006 @ 05:15 AM
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Originally posted by chinawhite
The indonesians have ordered Yaknort missiles from russia and will be deployed on their Su-27 series of aircraft bought from russia a few years ago.


Yakhont is only ship-launchable(and maybe air too?) and that too from angled launchers as far as I knew.



These missiles will most likey change the status quo in SE asia in favour of indonesia and threaten US allies like singapore which had just recently agreed to buy F-15 aircraft. All these countries were and some still are proxies used by the superpowers in the cold war to either spread communism or inpeed its progress.

MAybe but the Indonesian assets are mainly deemed to counter the Australians while the Sinaporeans(pardon me if I said that wrong) have their military assets to primarily deal with Malaysian forces(Su-30MKM et all)



The russian sale of the Yakhont missiles leaves question whether the russians were just making india pay the RnD cost for the BrahMos missile so it could finish development of the Yakhont which is the export version of the russian Onik.

Oh those devious russians




So the question is, are the russians going to try to sell the Yakhont missiles or is it going to help sell the BrahMos missile which would only see them get 50% profit.

There's is no restriction on marketing the Yakhont to any country. Its just not as verstile as the BrahMos.


The BrahMos is a carbon copy of the Yakhont which questions the validity of a "joint-project".


Extenally yes. Internally, well there's loads of differences.



The BrahMos is similar to the Onix / Yakhont externally, but has improved systems, and BrahMos can be fired from shipboard vertical-launch silos, not the angled launchers used for the Onix / Yakhont. Ground and air-launched versions of the BrahMos are in development
Source


There are loads of other differences which you could look up.




This also ask the question whether the russians will let the indians do the same with the PAF-FA program and brings into question the future or the russian defence industry.




Same missile with different paint


Bait?

Again I urge you look up the missiles and their capabilities.




Considering the Yaknort-M was almsot a fully developed missile when it was taken and renamed the BrahMos the indians probaly got the better side of the stick. It has been known that the russians would cancel almost completed projects. Russia also seems to hold the source codes for the missile sicne the article below outlines the fact that have have withheld them from the indian military at one point


Again the differences are considerable. There is no guarantee that the source codes will be withheld either. The intellectual property disputes need to be settled, and indeed may have already been settled. Need to look that up.



Yakhont Missile Specfications
- Length (m) 8.9


The BrahMos is shorter than 9 meters I think.



posted on Aug, 17 2006 @ 06:06 AM
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Originally posted by Daedalus3
Yakhont is only ship-launchable(and maybe air too?) and that too from angled launchers as far as I knew.


The Yakhont-M is the air launched version

Here is a picture of the missile next to the Su-33

Here is a picture of the shore-based Yakhont in a upright position



Here is the senario of lanuch



There's is no restriction on marketing the Yakhont to any country.


Like my article outlined. The BrahMos program was created for the export market. The russians were suppose to have been marketing the BrahMos missile for the market, except they have offered the Yakhnort. One of the points of frustation was that india had thought she found a possible export item but now have been put back to reality since the russians can just offer a yakhnort which has or has not been beefed up with the RnD money the indians paid for the BrahMos



There are loads of other differences which you could look up.


Just like the series or Klub missiles and all other missiles their are different versions. I suspect the Yakhnort guidence was used in the BrahMos or possibly a newer version that was under development. The BrahMos could have been Yakhort - XX version which needed the extra money the indian govermetn was going to give to fund the development

Also, confirmed up top before about the angle of lanuch. Warfare.ru clearly states a lanuch angle between 15 to 90 degrees


Launch angle range, deg 15 to 90

Warfare.RU

Because of the lack of details published by both missiles. I would like to see which engine each missile uses


Need to look that up.


Its not about intellectual property disputes. Its about the fact that russia can hold the source codes which tell us the russians were the people who made the guidence for the missile which clearly is in their court since they are the one withholding the codes. I doubt the russians wont give the codes since india is one of their main customers but this only highlights the countries who actually designed and made the guidence system.

The bigger picture is about who designed the actual missile and the fact it was reported to be "joint" development while the exterior is russian and the interior is also russia which is confirmed by the fact they had been retaining the source codes.

Anyway, the topic is about the indonesians and singapore


The BrahMos is shorter than 9 meters I think.


My mistake there. That length is for the lanuch container which is a lot bigger than the actual missile



[edit on 17-8-2006 by chinawhite]



posted on Aug, 17 2006 @ 11:44 PM
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Originally posted by chinawhite

Like my article outlined. The BrahMos program was created for the export market. The russians were suppose to have been marketing the BrahMos missile for the market, except they have offered the Yakhnort. One of the points of frustation was that india had thought she found a possible export item but now have been put back to reality since the russians can just offer a yakhnort which has or has not been beefed up with the RnD money the indians paid for the BrahMos


No no... The Yakhont was created for the export market. The Indians didn't feel that the Yakhont was good enough as it was and hence the BrahMos. The guidance is very different but obv the details aren't available. I think the BrahMos has a better seeker amongst other things. Both the Yakhont and the BrahMos definitely employ the same ramjet engine and have the same ranges and range options i.e. low/high-low.
Again there was no restriction or even an understanding that the yakhont will be pulled from export.
Also the eventual vendors of the BrahMos cannot be individually deceided by either Russia or India. It has to be a consensus of sorts. So India can't sell it to the US and Russia can't sell it to say Pakistan etc.

Maybe the Indians were a little hesitant to sell the BrahMos to a country which possibly lies in overlapping regions of power projection. Also maybe it wasn't wanting to endanger the US nuclear deal which is already facing enough flak from within the country. The Australians would have most definitely cried foul too, and they are a key source of nuclear fuel in the NSG I think.
Another aspect could be that Indonesia, an Islamic nation on most counts perhaps didn't want to caught up in an arms deal with a country like India which has deep defence ties with Israel.






The bigger picture is about who designed the actual missile and the fact it was reported to be "joint" development while the exterior is russian and the interior is also russia which is confirmed by the fact they had been retaining the source codes.



See. Its not as clear-cut as you make it out to be. The missile is inherently the Yakhont and hence all platform mating procedures are Yakhont-based.Since the missile has already been mated with numerous ships of both Russian and Indian origin, the 'source-code' issue slightly different.
The Russians maybe trying to curtail Indian ability to mix-n-match russian stuff with say french, Israeli or maybe even eventually(and this is where the key may lie) US stuff.

An article just a few days back in mosnews painted a very different picture:



Russia and India intend to make 1,000 BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles over the next ten years through their joint venture company, and nearly 50 percent of them are expected to be sold to other countries, defense sources said Friday.

“We already have a capacity to produce 100 missiles a year. One thousand missiles in ten years is a reasonable target. Nearly 50 percent will go to exports,” a source told PTI.

India and Russia have so far invested 300 million dollars in BrahMos Aerospace, which was established to design, develop, produce and market the missile by using the technological skills and capabilities of both countries.
Source


So who gave the money and who gave the brains isn't as you make it out to be.
The source-code issue is more of an intellectual copyright/securing future sales issue rather than it being an issue where the Indians wouldn't be able to do jack w/o the source codes.



Anyway, the topic is about the indonesians and singapore


Right; and besides that Indian Express article I found no mention of this sale except this:



Probably the most important export venture is the marketing of the Yakhont anti-ship missile, which does not exceed Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) performance limits, making it a viable export product. NPO Mashinostroyeniya has attempted to interest a number of countries in buying this missile. A number of countries have reportedly expressed interest in acquiring this missile, including China and Indonesia. In 1997 ITAR-TASS reported about the possibility of a Yakhont sale to Indonesia, citing reports that NPO Mashinostroyeniya was visited by Indonesian military experts on a number of occasions.
Source


The same source has this info as well which gives us a better idea of the individual inputs (funding and tech) from both parties:



In 1998 NPO Mashinostroyeniya and India's Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) created the BrahMos joint venture for the development of the PJ-10 anti-ship missile based on the Yakhont. Russia and India shared the financing of the new missile design, with Russia contributing $122 million and India $128 million. The Indian government holds the majority of shares in the joint venture and has the deciding voice in the running of BrahMos, and the PJ-10 has been designed to meet the Indian Navy's requirements. While the missile's airframe, propulsion system, and warhead are designed in Russia, its guidance system and software is designed in India.[14,15] Like the Oniks/Yakhont, the PJ-10 will be available in ground-, air-, ship- and submarine-launched variants. The missile reportedly has a maximum range of 280km, a launch weight of 3t, and a length of 6.9m, characteristics similar to those of the Oniks/Yakhont.[16] According to Director Gerbert Yefremov, the Indian funding has accelerated the pace of the missile's development by a factor of 10. Series production is to begin in 2003, at a rate of up to 200 missiles per year. Half of the missile's components will be manufactured by PO Strela, including the propulsion system, and the remainder (including electronics) by Indian firms.




[edit on 17-8-2006 by Daedalus3]



posted on Aug, 18 2006 @ 01:43 AM
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Originally posted by Daedalus3
No no... The Yakhont was created for the export market.


The Yaknont is the export name of the P-800 missile, it was not created to be exported. In 1998 when the indians and russians signed their agreement for the BrahMos program, the Yakhont missile was still in development and only reached a display model in '93. What i think happened was that NPO Mashinostroyeniya marketed the Yakhont missile to india in the form of a joint program when it realised it did not have the funding to finish the project off itself. So the money they recieved was used to finish off testing and development to make it a viable option for the russian military because the missile was still a prototype. The total cost of the BrahMos program was about 300million for everything, peanuts for real RnD work. The russians probaly used the money to test out the Yakhont to show the russian military that the missile works

It is still not clear whether the russians will be fielding the BrahMos missile after all those empty articles proclaiming the development of the BrahMos.

If we compare capabilities of the missiles there only might be the slightest difference

Both are Mach 2.5, they both have a range of about 290km, they both are to be deployed in land, sea and air, and they both offer the same dimensions. There is nothing that makes the BrahMos anymore capable than the Yakhont


Maybe the Indians were a little hesitant to sell the BrahMos


The article clearly outlined why the indians or DRDO were upset with the russians over this deal


Moscow’s decision to sell anti-ship cruise missiles to Indonesia without keeping Indo-Russian joint venture BrahMos Aerospace in the loop has left many red faces at DRDO, the equal Indian partner in the company.


I'm not sure if you know this terminology but it means that the russians didn't consider the interest of the BrahMos program when they were looking to export the Yakhont missile. It has nothing to do with islamic countries and other matters but exporting missiles.

About the reporting of the news, this is not as big a deal in the indian media or world media as it is in my opinion. Indianexpress has reported that it had try to contact DRDO representatives and the information they gave showed that it is real



Its not as clear-cut as you make it out to be.


I'll ask you a question. Do you believe the BrahMos guidence wasn't/isn't the same as the Yakhont. Or do you think the russians aren't capable of making a guidence system what the BrahMos employs.

Here is a snippet of your article

According to Director Gerbert Yefremov, the Indian funding has accelerated the pace of the missile's development by a factor of 10

[..] Cooperation with India through BrahMos has become a major source of NPO Mashinostroyeniya funding, accounting for 75% of its income. State orders, which at one point made up 100% of its funding, have now declined to only 10%, and the Russian government frequently fails to pay for its orders on time.


Read that line carefully, it is making reference to the yakhont missile. As i have been saying before, the BrahMos missiles development helped the progress of the Yakhont since it was at a standstill without any funding. As shown by the second paragraph, the BrahMos program helped keep the PO Mashinostroyeniya company afloat like i have mentioned previously.


Also i would like to say that guidence was developed by BrahMos corps. which does not mean india but joint russia and india (although i have doubts about their actual contribution since they had no experence developing anti-ship guidence systems let alone one as complicated as the Yakhont). Unlike what was first reported by hindu times, it wasn't joint as in half the missile, it was joint as in money. They assumed that india with is IT industry would develop the electrics and the russians would develop the missile.

Its just the same with the FC-1 and pakistan



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 12:32 AM
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Originally posted by chinawhite
The Yakhont is the export name of the P-800 missile, it was not created to be exported. In 1998 when the indians and russians signed their agreement for the BrahMos program, the Yakhont missile was still in development and only reached a display model in '93. What i think happened was that NPO Mashinostroyeniya marketed the Yakhont missile to india in the form of a joint program when it realised it did not have the funding to finish the project off itself. So the money they recieved was used to finish off testing and development to make it a viable option for the russian military because the missile was still a prototype. The total cost of the BrahMos program was about 300million for everything, peanuts for real RnD work. The russians probaly used the money to test out the Yakhont to show the russian military that the missile works


What you think is irrelevant when the article explicity states that the Yakhont(nothing else) was being reviewed very eagerly by the Indonesians themselves in 1997; 4 years after you claim the yakhont reached a dead-end. It also states that the Indonesian govt had financial problems at that time, which may explain the delay. Bottomline; the Yakhont was ready for export and it was marketed both the the Indonesians and Indians for sure. Only thing was that the Indians wanted more out of that missile and hence the BrahMos.
300 million is not peanuts by any measure!!!

The russians probably didn't do whatever you said. Since neither of us know better the probabilities are endless(conspiracy fora await you!
)





It is still not clear whether the russians will be fielding the BrahMos missile after all those empty articles proclaiming the development of the BrahMos.

If we compare capabilities of the missiles there only might be the slightest difference


Well if a Russian new agency claims that the organisation is planning to build upto 1000 missiles with upto 50% for export(dated 16 August), then we can presume that the Russians may have some interest, although it is of no concern to India whether Russia manufactures the missile for itself or not.



Both are Mach 2.5, they both have a range of about 290km, they both are to be deployed in land, sea and air, and they both offer the same dimensions. There is nothing that makes the BrahMos anymore capable than the Yakhont


Not really. Both have the same range and velocity and exhibit the same dimensions, because they're built on the same chassis. The guidance and electronics provided by Indian organisations cannot possibly change whatever you have compared here(structural and physical capabilities). I would presume one would have the common sense to conclude this, esp. AFTER I sourced an article on the contributions of each party.

What can change is the trajectory variations esp. with and enhanced seeker and/or better guidance. The high/high-low stage distances will be most directly affected by the changes, and this is what is being achieved.
Other aspects like mid-course corrections, tracking fasters targets etc. etc. can be viewed to areas of improvements.




The article clearly outlined why the indians or DRDO were upset with the russians over this deal


Moscow’s decision to sell anti-ship cruise missiles to Indonesia without keeping Indo-Russian joint venture BrahMos Aerospace in the loop has left many red faces at DRDO, the equal Indian partner in the company.




No. This is what Indian Express precludes from the deal. There has been not statement expressing the slightest concern for this sale of missiles which incidently hasn't shown up anywhere else on the internet.
Why? Selling missiles of yakhont pedigree would cause waves for sure




I'm not sure if you know this terminology but it means that the russians didn't consider the interest of the BrahMos program when they were looking to export the Yakhont missile. It has nothing to do with islamic countries and other matters but exporting missiles.


No it doesn't. Its your perception of events. Sale of miliary hardware is well en-meshed in foreign affairs.Russia already had a healthy arms relationship with Indonesia. Did they perceivably rob the Indians of a potential customer?
Maybe.. there's no denying that possibility amongst tens of other possibilities.
India-Indonesia relations aren't the best, but they aren't so bad either. The Viraat was in Djakarta late last here. I have a calendar showing a bunch of Indonesian kids jumping on the carrier deck of the Viraat.



About the reporting of the news, this is not as big a deal in the indian media or world media as it is in my opinion. Indianexpress has reported that it had try to contact DRDO representatives and the information they gave showed that it is real


They declined to give any comments. What information have you construed from that?!!




I'll ask you a question. Do you believe the BrahMos guidence wasn't/isn't the same as the Yakhont. Or do you think the russians aren't capable of making a guidence system what the BrahMos employs.


I know it for a fact. But publicising it would mean that I would have to quote military officials/scientists/technicians which I am not at a liberty to do. As you know there isn't much online to differentiate the two except for sledging threads on chinese and pakistani fora




Here is a snippet of your article

According to Director Gerbert Yefremov, the Indian funding has accelerated the pace of the missile's development by a factor of 10

[..] Cooperation with India through BrahMos has become a major source of NPO Mashinostroyeniya funding, accounting for 75% of its income. State orders, which at one point made up 100% of its funding, have now declined to only 10%, and the Russian government frequently fails to pay for its orders on time.


Read that line carefully, it is making reference to the yakhont missile. As i have been saying before, the BrahMos missiles development helped the progress of the Yakhont since it was at a standstill without any funding. As shown by the second paragraph, the BrahMos program helped keep the PO Mashinostroyeniya company afloat like i have mentioned previously.


True. India did bring in money to the program. But the money was half spent by Russia and India(approx 130 mill USD each). Now the regularity and the denominations in which the Indian funds came in as compared to Russian funds can be a point of debate and thats why one can see why Indian funding was pivotal during certain phases. Having two(or more) independant financial backers with independant objectives is the most effiecient way of securing financial backing(B-school eco 101).
And



Also i would like to say that guidence was developed by BrahMos corps. which does not mean india but joint russia and india (although i have doubts about their actual contribution since they had no experence developing anti-ship guidence systems let alone one as complicated as the Yakhont). Unlike what was first reported by hindu times, it wasn't joint as in half the missile, it was joint as in money. They assumed that india with is IT industry would develop the electrics and the russians would develop the missile.


I Like the way you assume what those articles print to your convienience.
so you're saying that the article author assumes this:




Half of the missile's components will be manufactured by PO Strela, including the propulsion system, and the remainder (including electronics) by Indian firms.


India's experience in developing guidances for missiles spans across multiple programs ranging from SAMs the ship launched-missiles to AMRAAMs. Its preposterous to draw an analogy to Pakistan

Maye you should apply this :
(although i have doubts about their actual contribution since they had no experience developing anti-ship guidence systems let alone one as complicated as the Yakhont).
to the Babur. It fits oh-so aptly.

IT has very little to do with electronics. Its software built on already supplied hardware. India's It boom is not product driven(unlike China), its services driven (another eco basic).
That said, I would like to quote another snippet of the same article:



However, some Russians are concerned that the PJ-10 may compete with NPO Mashinostroyeniya's own Yakhont. The PJ-10 is reportedly more versatile than the Yakhont, thanks to its improved ability to strike land targets. In order to further cooperation with DRDO, in late 2000 the Russian government granted NPO Mashinostroyeniya an unprecedented seven-year license to conduct independent military-technical cooperation with foreign entities




[edit on 19-8-2006 by Daedalus3]



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 01:42 AM
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Another Russian news article from July 06 describes the Indian army inducting the BrahMos for coastal defences(I presume in the same silo launch config you shared for the Yakhont) and a mobile 3-missile platform linked to a moblie command center:



Four available mobile three-missile ground launchers are to be placed on combat duty next year; their crews and service personnel have been training since 2005. Under the contract, the Indian Army will receive a mobile command center, 60 surface-to-surface missiles, the required training equipment and a logistics, support, storage and maintenance complex. Some of these missiles are to be replaced with anti-ship versions.



Such mobile launch capabilities available with the Yakhont?


Future customers for BrahMos? :



This Russian-Indian joint venture has repeatedly proved its ability to fulfil its commitments on time and to turn out top-quality products. It is therefore hardly surprising that the Russian-Malaysian contract for the delivery of Su-30-MKM Flanker fighters to Kuala Lumpur stipulates that, apart from organic weaponry, they must be equipped with BrahMos anti-ship missiles.


Also the Babur debunked by the article:



In 2005, the Pakistani Army, which lacks supersonic cruise missiles, adopted the Babur subsonic cruise missile, which can easily be shot down by India's Russian-made surface-to-air missile (SAM) systems. Experts explained New Delhi's decision to acquire the more accurate and faster BrahMos missiles by a desire to restore the regional balance of power

India has S-300 derivatives? I am unaware.
What SAM batteries shot down tomahawks in Kosovo?


[edit on 19-8-2006 by Daedalus3]

[edit on 19-8-2006 by Daedalus3]



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 02:56 AM
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DD3

The Akash SAM i believe is a S-300 derivative

And i believe you yourself had posted photographs of Yugoslav SAM batteries shooting down tomahawks over Kosovo. I believe the figure you stated was "over 200".

Here is the link to the page to refresh your memory

www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 07:01 PM
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Originally posted by Daedalus3
Only thing was that the Indians wanted more out of that missile and hence the BrahMos.


You have said that the Yakhont did not meet indian needs, yet their capabilities and size are not indifferent to each other. How did the indians want anything better than the Yakhont which performs as well as the BrahMos has shown to do. Now tell me the requirments the indian armed forces had and why the Yakhont couldn't have furfilled them.

If the russians were advertising the yakhont to Indonesia and India during that time it didn't mean the missile was complete nor was it as a missile system. Take for example the MKI, MiG-35, or BrahMos project. The Indoesians might have had finaical problems but the problem of a American fitted armed force. That might explain why they only tanggled with the idea.


According to Director Gerbert Yefremov, the Indian funding has accelerated the pace of the missile's development by a factor of 10


From the same article you posted(note its a quote from someone)

It clearly says that indian funding for the BrahMos program accelerated the Yakhont missile by a factor of ten. This clearly is after the year 1998 which was the date the BrahMos deal was signed. You can read it every way you want but a clear intruptation of this is the Yakhont wasn't a finished missile at that time



Well if a Russian new agency claims that the organisation is planning to build upto 1000 missiles with upto 50% for export


And I could not figure out what or where these 500 missiles will be exported to. Because Moscow news reports that they will make 1000 missiles and hopefully export half of them does not make that statement true since its not from the company, like most mass media its empty statements and figures. Indiadefence.com states that the 1000 missiles will be for india itself.

Was the actual purpose of the BrahMos, meant to just supply indian needs?, meant for the export market and india?. If the BrahMos was a superior missile to the Yakhont why would the russians still be funding this missile for?


I sourced an article on the contributions of each party.


And I am suppose to believe what nti.org has published?

Read my post at the end about the nti website about their china section
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Interesting reading through. But what im interested in is where did they come up with these figures since the offical BrahMos website does not allud to them. One thing i learnt from nti-org is to check their references to make sure they actually work. It you would be bothered to check their links they lead to Integrum.com which is a online database of published articles and data on russia. This means it could be written by anyone and referenced by them (this includes the article i read from hindutimes). Since the work they have done has been highlighted by me in the post beforehand it would be mainly speculation. Nothing in the section i debuked had any weight yet they added that in.

Unless you show me real edvidence like systems information or statements from BrahMos corp, than the article is worth as much as the googled/newsmax articles SS use to post (funny enough, newsmax and nti.org are somehow alligned)


Selling missiles of yakhont pedigree would cause waves for sure


That only matters when its in a conflict or the general area is a hot spot. You could get away with genocide if you were netural and remote enough, (eg turkey and Armenia). Even with the sale of 3000km ICBMs to saudi arabia and chemical weapons and WMD parts weren't big news when they were being sold. Because indonesia and her purpose for the missile so far has gone un-noticed, it means no one has bothered much.

Take for example the F-15 sale to south korea and the sale of Su-27 series planes to venualza or even mexico, whcih country got the most attention, even through south korea is getting the more numerous and advanced fighters and is more likey to help off to war. Where was the media banaza about those sales. The pedigree of the missile does not matter when your out of harms way and dont get involved in much

I do think india has been robbed of a export desination. The sum of $300million had been taken from them (though i think its peanuts but you suggest its a large amount). How about if the russians sell the Yakhont to other countries?. What will happen after that?. Just some more peanuts down the drain


But publicising it would mean that I would have to quote military officials/scientists/technicians which I am not at a liberty to do.


Sure I understand, but you should understand that i dont believe a word you say without any edvidence. This has no offending meaning towards it, so dont take it as a offence since I do believe in innocent before proven guilty.


I Like the way you assume what those articles print to your convienience.


Theres nothing convienent about it. He is actually quoting a russian offical and the figures he gave collaborates the statements (Historical data also porves it as correct since NPO Mashinostroyeniya had no orders of ICBMs in the 90s since production was ended, most notably the SS-19). Unlike the statements nti.org made about funding and such which has not been backed up by a important source. Why do people base so much faith in organisations like nti.org or globalsecruity.org. This has never made sense to me since none of these sites have proven anywhere near reliable when it comes to other countries defence industries.

See DD, i've been reading alot of reports being made and most of them are mis-reported by ill informed journalist or just to make them look bigger. One example was the skilworm/C-802 missile just recently. How much high quaility websites published this information?. One of the worst media outlets are indian, simply because they report anything and everything


India's experience in developing guidances for missiles spans across multiple programs ranging from SAMs the ship launched-missiles to AMRAAMs.


And how many were helfped from consultants?

Do we both have a clear view what i mean about guidence?. I am not talking about getting from point A to B but what happens in that period and what makes the Yakhont different from other missiles. Any country can make AI guidence like a UAV or Anti-ship missile but what im talking about is the active guidence system which tells the Yakhont to make those manuvers. And i hope you dont claim that india made that or has know how in making a active guidence system as complicated as the Yakhont which only the russians have mastered.

You comparision to pakistan is absurd. They have the same amount of experience as you have, do expect me to think how wonderful the indian SAM systems are and BVR missiles when none of them has made any significant advances over missiles the pakistanis are making by themselves. They are neither advanced nor use the same guidence as the Yakhont. Like you have said yourself, software built on hardware, and india does not ahve the capability to build their own hardware. I would rank its progress to the level of irans which has been built on russian technology/consulting


The last snippet of the article describes """The PJ-10 is reportedly more versatile than the Yakhont""". The key word here is reportedly which means only reported to be. The BrahMos as yet has not done a air launched test (which the Yakhont has). Which one would have been more versatile in this situation considering the yakhont has been developed into different variants and the indians are just talking about what capabilites it will be projected to have.



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 07:24 PM
link   

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Such mobile launch capabilities available with the Yakhont?


You mean something like this?






Also the Babur debunked by the article:


Come on Daedalus3,

Your quoting a damn russian media outlet, why would they downplay their own missile. If this was the case, china would have brought lots of these SAM systems for its coastal area and american tomahawk stocks wouldn't be much use anymore.

Out of about 300 tomahawks launched in the first gulf war, 2 were possibly shot down. There are raging comaprisons between what the serbian military claims to ahve shot down and what i have not seen reported. Though i have a tendency not to believe american reports, the serbians claim to have shot down a B-2 which makes me wonder the accuracy of their claims about 200 tomahwaks being shot down, it wasn't SAMs either, it was AA fire

Wheres that picture you posted before?



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 07:27 PM
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Originally posted by puneetsg
The Akash SAM i believe is a S-300 derivative


The Akash is a derivative of the SA-6. But the radar is claimed to be similar even through it has a detection range of 60km.


Daedalus3 ,

The ASTRA has a range of 20km????. WTF

[edit on 19-8-2006 by chinawhite]



posted on Oct, 8 2007 @ 04:52 AM
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Malaysians and Indonesians now interested in the BrahMos:

Malaysian report on possible BrahMos acquisitions.

Indonesian Naval Chief expresses interest in BrahMos LACM version.
Source

Sounds quite serious for the Aussies though. This ship based LACM capability would only be fit for Aussie targets right?



posted on Oct, 8 2007 @ 09:32 AM
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Originally posted by chinawhite

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Such mobile launch capabilities available with the Yakhont?


You mean something like this?






Also the Babur debunked by the article:


Come on Daedalus3,

Your quoting a damn russian media outlet, why would they downplay their own missile. If this was the case, china would have brought lots of these SAM systems for its coastal area and american tomahawk stocks wouldn't be much use anymore.


Wheres that picture you posted before?








Out of about 300 tomahawks launched in the first gulf war, 2 were possibly shot down. There are raging comaprisons between what the serbian military claims to ahve shot down and what i have not seen reported. Though i have a tendency not to believe american reports, the serbians claim to have shot down a B-2 which makes me wonder the accuracy of their claims about 200 tomahwaks being shot down, it wasn't SAMs either, it was AA fire


while the yugoslavs said 231 , the GRU said around 1000 cruise missiles




our quoting a damn russian media outlet, why would they downplay their own missile. If this was the case, china would have brought lots of these SAM systems for its coastal area and american tomahawk stocks wouldn't be much use anymore.


hmm... are u aware that usa is developing a long strike range hypersonic cruise missle to counter the problems posed by S-300 systems ?????

[edit on 8-10-2007 by manson_322]

[edit on 8-10-2007 by manson_322]



posted on Oct, 8 2007 @ 10:53 AM
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Originally posted by manson_322
hmm... are u aware that usa is developing a long strike range hypersonic cruise missle to counter the problems posed by S-300 systems ?????


Are you aware that we are not? Our efforts have gone into making the Tomahawk less observable while adding valuable upgrades to it's guidance and control suite, as well as newer warheads. The US is not convinced that hypersonic cruise missiles are necessary apart form the faster reaction time they offer. We are confident enough in the capability and past performance of the Tomahawk (unproved claims not withstanding) to continue developing it. This is why we are developing the similar JASSM, JASSM-ER and JASSM-XR. The RATTLRS so far has not been ordered, and it would not replace either missile only serve in a complimentary role.



posted on Oct, 8 2007 @ 11:49 AM
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Tomahawk has been shot down in Iraq in 1991 let alone more recently - so the platform needs serious updating

and westy

www.defensetech.org...



posted on Oct, 8 2007 @ 11:59 AM
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Gee, thats a bit scary for us. I know that most Indonesians dont like us that much. Hopefully they dont get the source codes for these missiles

Damn Russians!!!!!



posted on Oct, 8 2007 @ 03:42 PM
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The Indons are being brought back into Russia's sphere of interest, as well as China's. Aussie announced it would purchase Tomahawks a few years ago, the Indons are responding. Likewise Russia is to sell them ten Kilo class subs, in response to the Aussie Collins class subs. The maritime focus of the Indons purchases indicate that they know how vital their shipping lanes are to future global security. If the Straits of Malacca ever get closed then there could be major naval engagements to the North of Aussie, probably involving high level submarine warfare over control of vital oil trading routes that the entire Western Pacific is reliant upon. Also, the Yakhonts can be nuclear tipped, so if push comes to shove it could be bye bye Darwin...again. Christmas Island would be taken early in the piece, ala East Timor. It's amazing that Aussie doesn't have a major naval presence there. Ultimately the only way future navies will be able to survive is if they can go underwater. Modern naval warfare technology means that there is a limited future for surface ships of any kind; the next major naval engagement will prove this.



posted on Oct, 8 2007 @ 03:49 PM
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Originally posted by Harlequin
Tomahawk has been shot down in Iraq in 1991 let alone more recently...


The Tomahawk has been one of the worlds longest operational cruise missile and the most successful and effective. Notice that it has seen decades of continued large scale combat, more than you can say for almost all other cruise missiles. It has been effective in all situations and circumstances that’s it has been employed in. Yes it can be shot down, in combat, imagine that, and I wont even bring up the obvious issue of time and scale, method of shoot down, effort for shoot down, scale of shoot down, ratio of useful hits to malfunctions or shoot downs etc… Silly argument anyway.

The Tomahawk remains one of the most capable, versatile and useful cruise missiles in the world, still offering capabilities no other missile of that type can. Do not attempt to suggest unproven and newer designs which do even not offer some of the Tomahawks capabilities. And yes they too, like almost everything, can given the right circumstances, be shot down. If that is your standard then you will have a tough time selecting a "better" cruise missile.

As for the JASSM, I know it's situation, the program issues may be resolved to meet US military standards or a newer missile will be designed to replace it. Nevertheless it has nothing to do with the topic or the point the poster I responded to brought up. I was using the efforts going into the JASSM to demonstrate why that poster was wrong. I have no particular desire to discuss this specific missile in detail. In fact it kind of proves why the Tomahawk is so remarkable considering it time in service, records and capabilities.



posted on Oct, 8 2007 @ 04:07 PM
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reply to post by and01
 


I wouldnt say bye bye Darwin. The airport up here is a joint military/ commercial airport so there is always air support here and Tindal airbase is 300km south of here so if we are attacked there is always a large military presence. Plus the whole of Darwin is full of army and navy personel. Probably the best guarded city in Australia at the moment





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