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Originally posted by Prot0n
There's atleast one thing that ANY intelligent person with the ability to think for him/herself can agree on, NO ONE can factually state what created or how the universe came to be.
Point is, no one can nor ever will observe what started this universe.
Man created the gods, just look through history ffs.
If there is a creator of this universe and all life within it, all I can say is ... HOW BORING. What's to discover when we can default all our questions to "God did it".
If the universe came about through natural means, then it's the most awe inspiring event that I can even imagine.
I agree with this as well from the standpoint of life on earth, however if an afterlife exists then who knows?
In my opinion, there are two general ways of analyzing the various gods/religious beliefs. On one hand, they could be entirely false and a meaningless creation of man. On the other, they could be ways of trying to explain otherwise unexplainable divine forces or simply natural processes or both. I have read some interesting things about certain gods of antiquity being symbolic of natural processes. In any case, the fact that some kind of religious belief has been present in virtually every society in history is very interesting to me.
But who's to say that God isn't behind the natural processes that created the universe? Why are God and natural processes exclusive ideas in your opinion? I agree that "God did it" doesn't tangibly explain anything. It could be true, but even if it is we don't know "how God did it".
Originally posted by Prot0n
There is no afterlife. Common sense and common knowledge will teach you that.
We can also look at different cultures and see how no afterlife is the same. We can look through history and see how our concept of an afterlife has evolved and changed. Seriously, put on your thinking cap for abit.
Yes, it is interesting that we've managed to find religion in almost every civilization. But looking at the worlds religions, not everyone came to the same conclusion. They're way to different compared to each other. Aborigine's, native americans, and hipochristianity have nothing in common with each other, except that they claim the universe and life was created and that there's an afterlife.
And let's look back and think abit about that. People like to be know it alls. They just HAVE to have an answer to anything.
The afterlife is more philosophical and psychological then anything else.
It could very well be that some intelligent being created the universe or the very fabric of existence. But such a concept is ill logic. Just as some magical entity could've existed for all of eternity, so could the very fabric of reality that lead to our universe without the need for such a fancifull creator. Problem is, know one know's, nor ever will. I tend to exlude the two as seperate for a very good common sense reason. The two are seperate. It's not NATURAL to be created at the whims of some fancifull being. That's like saying a television set can come about through natural means in an isolated forest despite the fact that man made it. How is that natural? Nature doesn't get built.
Honestly, really think about this and just forget everything you were taught. No one's witnessed the creation of this universe. It's all just guess's. Look at ALL the worlds religions, both past and present and how they mesh and evolve with each other. Look at the ACTIONS of those followers through out history. And please understand that not even science itself will ever have a factual answer as to how the universe came to be.
Just accept that we don't know and never will know. There's more important thing's to worry about.
You sound pretty sure of this. Maybe you should refer to the title of this thread. If you're honest with yourself, you'll realize that you cannot prove this claim.
Just because people have different conceptions of the afterlife doesn't negate the possibility of an afterlife. People's beliefs don't change reality, whatever that may be.
There are/have been many seemingly contradictory belief systems. As you mentioned though, there is a common thread linking them together.
If this is the case, then you could also legitimately ask why people are so obsessed with a search for meaning.
The way I see it, an afterlife either exists or does not exist.
The point I was making is that "God" could be the force which set the natual laws and forces in motion.
Believe me, I don't rely on anyone else's opinion to form my own. As for the religions evolving and meshing with each other, who's to say that's not the point? Maybe religions evolve along with everything else. Anyway, you're the one who started the debate on the creation of the universe. I think it's an interesting subject to ponder, but it's not keeping me up at night or anything.
Originally posted by Rock Lobster
The point I'm trying to make here is that I think we should all ask ourselves what legitimate points we can make in discussing spiritual issues. I think that productive debates are possible, but there are some that seem to go nowhere because it's just two people reiterating their beliefs to each other ad nauseam. In conclusion I would just remind everyone (including myself) to be thoughtful, be humble and work together to advance the knowledge of everyone here.
Originally posted by Prot0n
Yes, I am sure of this. And this has been proven many time's over already. No, it's not on the 6 o'clock news day in and day out. Which is why people need to activley learn and not just arbitarily believe ANYTHING someone presents to them without any evidence that can be fully scrutinized by your own personage.
It could exist. Who knows. Problem is however, we have no evidence in favor and tons against.
Different conceptions based upon cultural and religous refrences. A hindu for example will NOT have an hipochristian afterlife experience. Are we to now think there are thousands of differing afterlife worlds specificly created for thousands of various cultural and religous beliefs and even an afterlife for electromagnetic fields passing through the living brain?
I bet you believe in talking snakes ruining society as well.
Originally posted by Prot0n
There's atleast one thing that ANY intelligent person with the ability to think for him/herself can agree on, NO ONE can factually state what created or how the universe came to be.
But there is one thing we can PROUDLY say. WE DON'T KNOW AND DON'T HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS.
There is no afterlife.
People need to think for themselve's
Originally posted by R3KR
Im kinda confused....
IF you guys keep going back and forth, which all do on this forum, then there is no such thing as absolute truth. If there is no such thing as absolute truth, why bother to debate if nothing can be proven in math or any other sense of the word to be absolute ? My point is that everything is an opinion. EVERYTHING can be debated and EVERYTHING has two sides to it. Thats kinda the point of life, to debate. If there was absolute anything then man would just one day be sitting in the corner and saying..."well, thats the answer so I guess there is nothing more to talk about."
Sorry if i dont post more, i am not an intellectual type, my mind is mechanical, the speach part dosnt work as good.
[edit on 18-8-2006 by R3KR]
If there is no such thing as absolute truth, why bother to debate if nothing can be proven in math or any other sense of the word to be absolute ? My point is that everything is an opinion. EVERYTHING can be debated and EVERYTHING has two sides to it.
So you see that you are contradicting yourself here. In your initial response you claimed you were sure an afterlife does not exist and in your later response you claimed you were unsure or whether this was the case. Also, if you'd like to share I'd like to hear some of the evidence you're talking about.
Yes, but just because someone believes something doesn't make it true. Even though Christian and Hindu conceptions of the afterlife differ, that does not in itself disprove the existence of an afterlife. Who's to say there isn't an element of truth in both belief systems? Maybe the problem is that no one group has a completely accurate conception of what the afterlife is.
Prot0n, I have to say that certain parts of your posts are exactly the kind of thing I had in mind when starting this thread. We've had some legitimate debate, but at times you've also belligerently pushed your views as fact and made unfounded assumptions about my beliefs. What's the deal?
Originally posted by Prot0n
A legitimate debate would be one of having both parties presenting evidence for their argument . . . As for this evidence. Learn. Go look for it yourself.
With the numerous experiments done, all repeatable mind you, we know the brain induces these experiences based upon cultural and religous beliefs. Not inaccurate misrepresentations of an afterlife. No two NDE's are alike. It's almost like a friggin fingerprint. You can't find two exact descriptions. This is a no brainer issue for those who've bothered to look into it.
Typically the experience follows a distinct progression (Mauro, 1992; Morse, Conner & Tyler, 1985; Morse & Perry, 1992; van Lommel et.al, 2001) as summarized in the following points:
The sudden awareness that one has had a "fatal" accident and not survived.
An out-of-body experience. A sensation of floating above one's body and seeing the surrounding area.
Pleasant feelings, calmness. A sense of overwhelming love and peace.
A sensation of moving upwards through a tunnel or narrow passageway.
Meeting deceased relatives or spiritual figures.
Encountering a being of light, or a light (possibly a religious figure, e.g., Jesus Christ / God the Father, Buddha).
Being given a life review.
A feeling of being returned to the body, often accompanied by a reluctance to return.
A legitimate debate would be one of having both parties presenting evidence for their argument. Not baseless arguments of could be's and what if's and maybe's. Mine's easily attainable, evidence for god or afterlife is a matter of FAITH, not evidence as none presently exist's.
So it appears that there are similar aspects found in many NDEs.
In my opinion though, there are some observable things that point to a life outside of the present. For example, out of body experiences - these at least show that there is something more to us than the physical body. Now you could classify OBEs as an illusion created by the mind, but I've heard of cases of people expressing a loss of fear relating to death after having an OBE. Same thing with NDEs. This seems to suggest there is something more to these phenomena. Also, there have been cases of young children recounting a past life and in some of these cases the information they gave was verified (things like the location of a former home and recorded historical events).
As you said though, it ultimately comes down to faith. I completely agree. I'm not trying to prove anything to you here, just posing possibilities.
Really now? Keep searching and keep learning. Most NDE research you'll find is usually of the hipochristian variety, as your exerpt show's.. seeing jesus or god. That just bring's us back to the cultural and religous factors of NDE's. A hindu, aboriginal or ancient egyptian NEVER report that they seen jesus and company.
Past life stuff, I don't know too much about really but if there was something to it beyond heresy then I'm sure the scientific community would be all of it.
With abit more searching you'd know that those aren't possibilities. Knowledge is power my friend.