The Whole Solar System is Undergoing Global Warming., page 6

Originally posted by Muaddib
Loam, he is a scientist and has been a scientific advisor for the UN, scientists not always agree with each other

No they don't. But on this general topic the VAST majority do. Moreover, I still take exception to your assertion that Jaworowski's credentials are comparable to even a fraction of the REAL climatologists who disagree with him.

Finally, am I supposed to be impressed by his connection to the UN? That is hardly a big deal. The fact that he sits on a committee ( UNSCEAR )as an appointee of his native country, Poland, does nothing to bolster his credibility.

I also think it's funny that you think his "experience" on the effects of radiation (the only area he has ever scientifically published in) somehow gives him a unique and superior understanding of the global warming issue.

If you need brain surgery, you don't consult a podiatrist.

Originally posted by Muaddib
...and there were other links which I gave and corroborate what he has to say. There is a discrepancy between the data given from ice core base time systems and leaf base time systems, and the ice core base time systems have had discrepancies with the geological climatic evidence. Not even those scientists who claim human activity is the main cause for global warming will deny this.

Yes, well I don't have your posts as the only thing happening in my life. Adressing all of the half-backed falsehoods and spin you introduce into this thread would represent a full time job and I just don't have that kind of time.

BUT, at least your citation of the leaf base time systems conflict is marginally more credible than Jaworowski's. But once again, you seem only interested in cherry picking your science.

See for example this assessment of Wagner's assertions:

Wagner et al. claim that the concept of relatively stable Holocene CO2 concentrations of 270 to 280 ppmv until the Industrial Revolution is falsified by their results. We believe that this conclusion is not justified.

Climate and Environmental Physics: Physics Institute, University of Bern

Originally posted by Muaddib
BTW, now that you bring up that according to some scientists in the past 800,000 years that there have been no CO2 readings like today, and knowing that in those 800,000 years we have had "several warming and cooling events some of which have been worse than the one we are currently going through"...what do you think that says about the effects that CO2 have on global warming?.....

Muaddib, I can't figure out if you're just confused or whether something else is in play...

Originally posted by Muaddib
It pretty much proves that CO2 does not affect climate as much as we are led to believe by some scientists, that's what it proves.

Originally posted by Muaddib
One more thing, do you think that 370-380 ppmv is the maximum amount of CO2 that has been found on the history of Earth?.... Actually the average would be from 1,000 ppmv to over 2,000 ppmv.

300-million-year Record of CO2 Levels; Uncertainties in Climate Science

Cooler Heads Coalition
June 27, 2001

Cooler Heads Coalition????

Cooler Heads Coalition and its website globalwarming.org (www.globalwarming.org...) were revived by Consumer Alert's National Consumer Coalition in April 2004. The website and group were formed in May 6, 1997, "to dispel the myths of global warming by exposing flawed economic, scientific and risk analysis." Consumer Alert and National Consumer Coalition are industry friendly groups that oppose regulations on industry and advocate "free market" consumer solutions.

Source.

But let's address the specific assertion, shall we?

300-million-years

Think about that.

Originally posted by Muaddib
The Earth goes through different periods of warming and cooling, somtimes they are rapid and worse, sometimes they take a long time and are mild in comparison to what has happened to the Earth in ancient times.

On that we agree... BUT! Why is it you seem to think that a SINGLE mechanism is responsible for each of those changes????




[edit on 7-9-2006 by loam]

During most of the Mesozoic era (the period from 65 to 259 million years ago), CO2 levels were between 1,000 and 2,000 ppm, with occasional peaks that reached levels higher than 2,000 ppm.

Results from the middle Miocene, a warm period about 10 million years ago, failed to show high CO2 levels. The researchers suggest that the warming may have occurred due to "episodic methane outbursts."

www.globalwarming.org...

The Earth goes through different periods of warming and cooling, somtimes they are rapid and worse, sometimes they take a long time and are mild in comparison to what has happened to the Earth in ancient times.

The dinosaurs after reigning for 165 million years 'disappeared' 65 million years ago.
Is there a connection here?
What would it be?

namaste

Raphael

Originally posted by loam

No they don't. But on this general topic the VAST majority do. Moreover, I still take exception to your assertion that Jaworowski's credentials are comparable to even a fraction of the REAL climatologists who disagree with him.

How exactly do you think your opinion on who is more qualified denies the fact that there are discrepancies between ice core base systems and leaf base system, and even with the geological climatic evidence?

How many times in the past have "a majority of scientists" in one field agreed on one thing, and later on was found out they were wrong?

You need more than your opinion to make valid the claim of a majority of "environmentalists" have about global warming...

Can you refute the discrepancies that have been noted? with scientific data please.

Originally posted by loam
Finally, am I supposed to be impressed by his connection to the UN? That is hardly a big deal. The fact that he sits on a committee ( UNSCEAR )as an appointee of his native country, Poland, does nothing to bolster his credibility.

That his country chose him to be a representative to the UN should speak for itself. He is no "crackpot scientist".

Originally posted by loam
I also think it's funny that you think his "experience" on the effects of radiation (the only area he has ever scientifically published in) somehow gives him a unique and superior understanding of the global warming issue.

His ice core base system research for 40 years is what gives him an understanding about global warming, and the discrepancies found in the system which "environmentalists" keep trying to hide to bolster their agenda.

Originally posted by loam
Yes, well I don't have your posts as the only thing happening in my life. Adressing all of the half-backed falsehoods and spin you introduce into this thread would represent a full time job and I just don't have that kind of time.

Well, if you have no time to refute the data then don't participate. Do you have any scientific data which disproves that there are discrepancies with ice core base systems, and what the leaf base system and the climatological data shows?

Originally posted by loam
BUT, at least your citation of the leaf base time systems conflict is marginally more credible than Jaworowski's. But once again, you seem only interested in cherry picking your science.

Why is that? because it is your opinion? How exactly does that invalidates what he has to say?

He is not the only one who says there are discrepancies with the data given by ice core samples and other samples as well as the geological data.

There is more data which shows not only a discrepancy but also that many of these "environmentalists" are for some reason not discussing and trying to hide some facts, such as the following.

Magnetic Field Weakening in Stages, Old Ships' Logs Suggest
John Roach
for National Geographic News

May 11, 2006
Earth's magnetic field is weakening in staggered steps, a new analysis of centuries-old ships logs suggests.
............
The field last flipped about 800,000 years ago, according to the geologic record.
............
But the field might not always be in steady decline, according to a new study appearing in tomorrow's issue of the journal Science. The data show that field strength was relatively stable between 1590 and 1840.

"It now looks as though it happens in steps rather than just one continuous fall," said David Gubbins, an earth scientist at the University of Leeds in the United Kingdom.

Records and Math

The magnetic field protects Earth from cosmic radiation. In its absence, scientists say, Earth would be subjected to more electrical storms that disrupt power grids and satellite communications (sun storm photos).

news.nationalgeographic.com...

The Earth's magnetic field was relatively stable from 1590 and 1840. Since around the 19th century, the Earth has been warming up. Again, another good indicator that global warming on Earth is being being affected by causes which do not have much to do with human activity. Human activity has changed the environment in many places, as I have said several times, but that does not equal to human activity being the cause for global warming.

Of note is the fact that the Earth's magnetic field flipped last time 800,000 years ago, and it was in the 19th century that it began to decline again. Could this be part of the reason why CO2 nowadays is the highest than in the past...800,000 years?

Originally posted by loam

Wagner et al. claim that the concept of relatively stable Holocene CO2 concentrations of 270 to 280 ppmv until the Industrial Revolution is falsified by their results. We believe that this conclusion is not justified.

Climate and Environmental Physics: Physics Institute, University of Bern

So environmentalists claim that "they believe this conclusion is not justified", without providing any evidence to back their "claims" and that is enough evidence to dispute these discrepancies?

Originally posted by loam
Muaddib, I can't figure out if you're just confused or whether something else is in play...

I understand perfectly what you are trying to say. Many "environmentalists" claim that it is mostly CO2 which is causing global warming, but i am presenting data which shows there are other reasons which are apparently the causes for the Earth, and the other planets in the solar system warming up.

Some of those very possible causes, which "environmentalists do not mention for whatever motive they may have, or just because they don't know", are the decline in the magnetic field of the Earth, which for some extrange reason coincides with the increase of CO2 800,000 years ago, and this time around. Just like the partial reversal of the Sun's own magnetic field, which has not conpletly reversed and allows for more cosmic rays and other exited particles to enter the solar system, particles which do affect the "entire solar system, which includes the Earth".

Originally posted by loam

Originally posted by Muaddib
It pretty much proves that CO2 does not affect climate as much as we are led to believe by some scientists, that's what it proves.

Wow, so laughing disproves that the effects and causes of CO2 are apparently being exagerated by "environmentalists"?

Originally posted by loam
Cooler Heads Coalition????

and you are providing the opinion from "environmentalists"..... i guess they are very unbiased towards "human acitivities"....

Anyways, can you disprove what that article says?... I gave several articles, not all of which are from that coalition...

Originally posted by loam

300-million-years

Think about that.

Yes, think about it...it is the data given "within" 300 million years....

Originally posted by loam
On that we agree... BUT! Why is it you seem to think that a SINGLE mechanism is responsible for each of those changes????



[edit on 7-9-2006 by loam]

and why is it not possible that the main causes for warming, which are not happening only to Earth, have nothing to do with "human activity"?

[edit on 9-9-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by rizla
Referring to the first post:

1. The Mars data only goes back to 2002. That is not long enough to make a conclusion.

2. No one understands how the jovian atmosphere works. They don't even understand how the red spot is formed.

3. Pluto. The last nail in the coffin, and I'll quote the article itself:

Pluto's global warming was "likely not connected with that of the Earth. The major way they could be connected is if the warming was caused by a large increase in sunlight. But the solar constant--the amount of sunlight received each second--is carefully monitored by spacecraft, and we know the sun's output is much too steady to be changing the temperature of Pluto."

In what could be the simplest explanation for one component of global warming, a new study shows the Sun's radiation has increased by .05 percent per decade since the late 1970s.

Space.Com

Originally posted by madjamjar
Taken from a newspaper today

"SUN CAN COOL US

Global warming could reverse naturally as the suns activity reduces, scientists claim.

The star constantly produces sunspots - areas of lower temperatures which affect radiated heat

Experts say the number of sunspots is going down, triggering a possible 0.2 degree C drop in the Earths temperature in a decade

It would take 50 years of greenhouse gas curbs to make the same reduction"

Mind providing a link?

Because according to this (also just in today from Scientific American):

No Sunshine for Global Warming Skeptics

Known variations in the sun's total energy output cannot explain recent global warming, say researchers who have reviewed the existing evidence. The judgment, which appears in the September 14 Nature, casts doubt on the claims of some global warming skeptics who have argued that long-term changes in solar output, or luminosity, might be driving the current climate pattern.
The evidence for human-induced global warming is neatly captured in a plot of the planet's reconstructed temperature over the last 1,000 years. The temperature takes a dramatic upswing starting 100 years ago, creating the so-called hockey stick graph. A reasonable question is whether natural changes such as solar activity could have caused or contributed to the upturned blade of that stick, perhaps because the sun's luminosity varies widely over centuries or more. "The question is, were there times in the past when it was equally warm, and the answer is no," says Tom Wigley of the National Center for Atmospheric Research. He and three colleagues compared the average of a number of temperature reconstructions based on tree rings, ice cores and other data with models of Northern Hemisphere temperature that include different levels of solar variation, from little to a speculatively high amount. In all cases, "what you get out looks very much like the observations" from real samples, he says. "The warming [of the past 100 years] is greater than any in the last 1,000 years."

The consistency meshes with solar physicists' latest understanding of how the sun works, the group notes. The sun's luminosity swings up and down by less than 0.1 percent in accord with an 11-year cycle of sunspots and faculae, bright areas of heightened output [see image above]. This cycle accounts for most of the sun's variability. Recent simulations reinforce the idea that convection inside the sun rapidly smoothes out internal hot spots before their concentrated heat can escape like an upwelling of magma, the researchers note. This inertia allows surface changes to have a discernible effect and explains why no additional sources of variation have been identified so far, they say.

More...

See also:

Don't Blame Sun for Global Warming, Study Says


[edit on 14-9-2006 by loam]

Originally posted by Muaddib
Loam, the problem is that such studies as the one you provided, do not take into account "everything" that is happening at once in a larger scale...such as the Sun's polarity not flipping completly and allowing more dust and exited particles to enter the solar system, or the Earth's own magnetic field weakening in stages, and it has been weakening once again since the 19th century.... human activity have nothing to do with the sun's magnetic field, nor the Earth's magnetic field. Are you, or any of the scientists you quote trying to say that "mankind can change the Earth's core, or the Sun's core?...

What are you talking about about? Statements like "...are you, or any of the scientists you quote trying to say that 'mankind can change the Earth's core, or the Sun's core?' is a clear example of your intellectual dishonesty and merits little or no response.

How about addressing the ACTUAL positions made, as opposed to manufacturing ones out of thin air that no one asserts?

Originally posted by Muaddib
You are obviously a diehard proponent that "mankind must be at fault", the evidence does not say that no matter how much you try to claim the contrary.

Another example of your intellectual dishonesty...

I know you have been reading my posts long enough to know that I have NEVER said "mankind must be at fault". But unlike your self-proclaimed certainty of the "evidence", I am not prepared to dismiss outright the likelihood that we can play a significant role in the process. The VAST MAJORITY of the science runs against your position, and I do not suffer from your brand of hubris in a manner that forecloses upon investigation of the issue. The only "diehard proponent" I see is you and those who would have the rest of us believe that your superior knowledge and unique understanding of the world render meaningless all else to the contrary.

Originally posted by Muaddib
I started another thread where according to a new research extreme climate changes were the main drive for civilizations.

I saw your thread and intended to respond there. But since you raise it here, I will do so now.

First, let me say that I fail to see what relevance you think *it* has to THIS discussion. Nonetheless...

I think Nick Brooks' theory on the origins of civilization is an interesting theory, but even he admits it is only a hypothesis that requires more corroborative field based research:

The evidence for linked environmental and social change is very strong in the central
Sahara and Egypt, where responses to aridity are evidence in local archaeological
records. While the data fit the hypothesis that social complexity was stimulated by
increased aridity in Mesopotamia, the Indus-Sarasvati region, northern China and coastal
Peru, further field-based research is required in order to link social change explicitly with
environmental change at local scales, for example as represented by individual
settlements. In particular, more high resolution palaeoenvironmental data are required
from these regions in order to establish local trajectories of environmental change that
may be related to local archaeological records.

From his actual research paper...

Frankly, I see nothing revolutionary about his hypothesis. Fundementaly, all he asserts is that climate change drove the initial development of complex societies. Unlike what you seem to imply, he makes no representation concerning the impact of climate change on existing complex societies, nor does he draw any equivalence between Middle Holocene climatic changes to today's climate changes or those likely indicated for the near future.

Once again, I think you seem confused. The absurdity of your next statement demonstrates it:

Originally posted by Muaddib
This is not the first time, nor the last, nor has it been the worse, when climate change has occurred on Earth. Yes, there are activities of mankind that are hurting the environment, and eventually we should be seeking a balance, but this does not mean that mankind is the main drive for global warming when it has happened several times in the past and much worse and faster than the one we are going through.

There is no SINGLE and EXCLUSIVE natural mechanism for climate change. There are several- some having operated independently at times and others having operated in collaboration- and the fact of their existence does nothing to dismiss the potential for anthropogenic mechanisms operating independently of, or in conjunction with, any natural mechanisms.

Some may be fooled by your oversimplifications and armchair-psuedo-science, but I am not.


[edit on 15-9-2006 by loam]

Lake Vostok Antarctica: breakthrough imminent.
  Posted 9 days ago with 175 member flags

Sky Sounds 1/25/2012 Atlanta, GA Personal Video/Audio
  Posted 17 days ago with 146 member flags

Strange sounds warn us of incoming, and very soon...
  Posted 5 days ago with 134 member flags

Volcano in Iceland Erupting Alongside The Aurora Borealis (pics)
  Posted 6 days ago with 121 member flags

6 of the oldest trees from around the world.
  Posted 10 days ago with 108 member flags

West Coast USA: Pay Attention, Cascadia May Be Ready to Rupture
  Posted 7 days ago with 87 member flags

CONFIRMED: Global Warming \'Ended 15 Years Ago\'
  Posted 13 days ago with 75 member flags

Pictures from the Aurora lightshow
  Posted 18 days ago with 73 member flags

Newest topics, updated in real-time:

Newest topics getting flags, in real-time:

Newest topics getting replies, in real-time: