Originally posted by astrocreep

Originally posted by soficrow

We seem to be mostly on the same page - but I think you're dead wrong here.

Mining, drilling, manufacturing - all stress the environment and create pollution either directly or indirectly, locally and globally.

Could you please provide some examples to illustrate your claim?

...I honestly just don't get how you could come to that conclusion.

Certainly, lets start with the rain forest. Nuff said or should I explain that they cut it down to try and make more farmland because they have no knowledge of crop rotation or fertilization.

!?!

(Actually I meant specifics including place names. ) But I will respond.

Natives don't cut down their own rainforest - companies like United Fruit Growers and McDonald's buy the land cheap, and destroy it.

BTW - Rainforest is lousy for agriculture because there's little topsoil. The natives know this. Many are killed by corporate-paid mercenaries while trying to protect their land and heritage.

Another good example is the one I used in the post before this one. Starving children looking for a clean drink of water. Why is the water dirty? Because no one has the wealth to clean it once its contaminated by human and animal waste..not industry.

I beg to differ. The problem starts with harvesting natural resources - by international corporations - which affects water quality and supply to indigenous populations. Think arsenic in Central and South America for starters - and Coca Cola sucking the ground water and aquifer dry in Africa.

I am also quite certain that you have a good argument with your proposal that industry does cause pollution, however, it does so against the law and risks the repercussions if caught.

Where do you live? ...and when, exactly?

I'm not denying that industry pollutes, but with the wealth that comes from it, we have seen many programs to clean up after it.

Funding for SuperFund clean-ups has been slashed to ribbons over the past few years. Just for example.

I do think and support the mandatory reclaimation of our environment and am glad our country is able to engage in what so many are not.

You mean like sending the polluters offshore to destroy other environments instead? ...And ignoring the fact that we're all part of the same ecosystem.

..Ihave not dismissed anything except the notion that all climate changes are manmade.

... I did not and will not go to the extreme in the other direction.

I think you tend to over-balance, whether or not you mean to do so.

Thats what started this whole thread, the presentation of probable evidence of solar system wide change and the attempt to censor it.

You might remember - I posted this a year ago:

I realize that without it, we are as screwed as we are with it. Its a catch 22. Damned if we do and damned if we don't.

ESA sees stardust storms heading for Solar System

PRESS RELEASE
Date Released: Monday, August 18, 2003
Source: Artemis Society

Until ten years ago, most astronomers did not believe stardust could enter our Solar System. Then ESA's Ulysses spaceprobe discovered minute stardust particles leaking through the Sun's magnetic shield, into the realm of Earth and the other planets. Now, the same spaceprobe has shown that a flood of dusty particles is heading our way.
...........
What is surprising in this new Ulysses discovery is that the amount of stardust has continued to increase even after the solar activity calmed down and the magnetic field resumed its ordered shape in 2001.

Scientists believe that this is due to the way in which the polarity changed during solar maximum. Instead of reversing completely, flipping north to south, the Sun's magnetic poles have only rotated at halfway and are now more or less lying sideways along the Sun's equator. This weaker configuration of the magnetic shield is letting in two to three times more stardust than at the end of the 1990s. Moreover, this influx could increase by as much as ten times until the end of the current solar cycle in 2012.

Ulysses sees Galactic Dust on the rise
01 Aug 2003

Since early 1992 Ulysses has been monitoring the stream of stardust flowing through our Solar System. The stardust is embedded in the local galactic cloud through which the Sun is moving at a speed of 26 kilometres every second. As a result of this relative motion, a single dust grain takes twenty years to traverse the Solar System. Observations by the DUST experiment on board Ulysses have shown that the stream of stardust is highly affected by the Sun's magnetic field.
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Unlike Earth, however, the Sun reverses its magnetic polarity every 11 years. The reversal always occurs during solar maximum. That's when the magnetic field is highly disordered, allowing more interstellar dust to enter the Solar System. It is interesting to note that in the reversed configuration after the recent solar maximum (North negative, South positive), the interstellar dust is even channelled more efficiently towards the inner Solar System. So we can expect even more interstellar dust from 2005 onwards, once the changes become fully effective.

Originally posted by Muaddib
This is a fact that not many people know about, and quite a few people, would like that there was no evidence to back this fact, because some people would like the world to believe that human activity is the cause for global warming on Earth. I am not advocating that releasing harmful gases, and chemicals in the oceans and atmosphere are good, but after a few years of research, I have come to understand that global warming is happening in the Solar System, not just on Earth.

Some people just want to listen to what some environmentalists are claiming, that global warming is happening because of human activity, and we are the cause for the extreme changes in climate we have been seeing lately getting worse and worse.

I will let now the facts speak for themselves as to what is really happening.

Mars may be going through a period of climate change, new findings from NASA's Mars Odyssey orbiter suggest.

Odyssey has been mapping the distribution of materials on and near Mars' surface since early 2002, nearly a full annual cycle on Mars. Besides tracking seasonal changes, such as the advance and retreat of polar dry ice, the orbiter is returning evidence useful for learning about longer-term dynamics.

mars.jpl.nasa.gov...

Martian Ice Shrinking Dramatically

New gullies that did not exist in mid-2002 have appeared on a Martian sand dune.

That's just one of the surprising discoveries that have resulted from the extended life of NASA's Mars Global Surveyor, which this month began its ninth year in orbit around Mars. Boulders tumbling down a Martian slope left tracks that weren't there two years ago. New impact craters formed since the 1970s suggest changes to age-estimating models. And for three Mars summers in a row, deposits of frozen carbon dioxide near Mars' south pole have shrunk from the previous year's size, suggesting a climate change in progress.

mars.jpl.nasa.gov...

Prediction of a global climate change on Jupiter
Philip S. Marcus

Top of pageJupiter's atmosphere, as observed in the 1979 Voyager space craft images, is characterized by 12 zonal jet streams and about 80 vortices, the largest of which are the Great Red Spot and three White Ovals that had formed1 in the 1930s. The Great Red Spot has been observed2 continuously since 1665 and, given the dynamical similarities between the Great Red Spot and the White Ovals, the disappearance3, 4 of two White Ovals in 1997−2000 was unexpected. Their longevity and sudden demise has been explained5 however, by the trapping of anticyclonic vortices in the troughs of Rossby waves, forcing them to merge. Here I propose that the disappearance of the White Ovals was not an isolated event, but part of a recurring climate cycle which will cause most of Jupiter's vortices to disappear within the next decade. In my numerical simulations, the loss of the vortices results in a global temperature change of about 10 K, which destabilizes the atmosphere and thereby leads to the formation of new vortices. After formation, the large vortices are eroded by turbulence over a time of 60 years—consistent with observations of the White Ovals—until they disappear and the cycle begins again.

www.nature.com...

Pluto is undergoing global warming, researchers find
October 9, 2002

Division for Planetary Sciences in Birmingham, AL.
Hi Friends,

I am taking notes on things that GOV should do to avoid Global warming.

globalwarming-awareness2007-arshad.com...

Please help me expand the topic.

Thanks!
Arshad

Originally posted by astrocreep

Hi Friends,

I am taking notes on things that GOV should do to avoid Global warming.

globalwarming-awareness2007-arshad.com...

Please help me expand the topic.

Thanks!
Arshad

Well sofi, I will consider myself more educated from having this discussion with you. I'm not on a side politcally so your arguments don't threaten me at all. In fact, in discussing issues of such nature with someone who also seeks to know the facts instead of trying to pass their will off as facts, I consider myself all the better for it. Thank you.


So, from the point at which we are, whats to do? Regress in our economy and industry or progress but in a responsible way? Responsible beginning with honesty about climate change and laying down scaremongering and educating people about the true nature of the planet on which they live. I think if we recognize the affects of pollution on local climate and environment, that should certainly be enough incentive without grandious suppositions.