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Anyone want an obsolete Indian fighter?

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posted on Nov, 17 2006 @ 01:52 AM
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Originally posted by Daedalus3
Much to the contrary.. 2015 OrBat IAF


What is the difference from 2015??.

I dont think all MKIs will be ready by 2015, so goes with the MRCA program, wasn't it license production instead of actually importing the aircraft. I used 2020 as my date because the MRCA will surely be finished by then while 2015 is just apossiblty considering the rate of the MKI and other indian programs, not to mention that the deal doesn't given seem to be over yet



True. But how many of these are air superiority and MRCA?


My figures are for the present date, by 2015-2020 the J-7 and J-6 are not even going to be air worthy and need replacement. Most of the imported and manufractured aircraft have been heading towards the East coast of china. By 2010, the gradual replacment of J-7s would have been done and post 2010 the chinese airforce would concentrate on replacing aircraft in the west. It has already started with the J-10s and J-11 in the chengdu region and most likey continue towards Lanzhou next.

The ASEAN nations like thailand have extremely good relations with china. Even though they are so called allies of the US, doesn't mean they will fight or help America in a war



Kadena, Atsugi are not more than 800km from the chinese coastline. Okinawa's just filled with runways!


Kadena already supports one wing of F-15s and their associated supports. That is about 100 F-15s and other fighters. Its not really big to support the amount of fighters you are suggesting and will be targetted by strike aircraft as well as ballistic missiles. Once hostilities commence, Kadena will be first to be targetted

Atsugi is about 900 miles, but you cannot say the japanese will join this war for sure. Their new president and their old president was looking to improve relations with china as well as. These opinoins polls are interesting none the less Opinoin polls



If you're going to put China and Pakistan on one side in any force comparision against India, you cannot possibly let me exclude Japan vis-a-vis China!!!


How so?

- Japan has been a pacifist country for 50 years while India and Pakistan have not
- India and Pakistan have relations which make the "worsening" Japanese-chinese relationship look like their at war.
- China and japans relationship will improve over the next few years
- China and japan have never been in a war with their current governemnts.
- Japan and china have never stated they are secruity risks to each other\
- Nuclear weapons ahve always been a detergent

Japan and Chinas relationship is much like Russia and Chinas current one.


But if you insist on the japanese and american alliance having some worth, then Russia will join in this senario as well. Read article 9 of the " Treaty of Good-Neighborliness and Friendly Cooperation Between the People's Republic of China and the Russian Federation "



The South Koreans are major US allies. It is safe to consider their forces as a complement to the US objectives in the Pacific.


Againest speific countries. They are not obliged to help the US in anyway. Imagine the protests in parliment and out of parliment if the south koreans decided to help the americans. I imagine in 5 years time, the south koreans will be closer to china bar formal treaties than to the US. South koreans already see the US as overbearing on issues like North Korea and the majority of South Koreans want American troops out of their country. Not many countries in the world enjoy going to war


The same way you proposed that PLAAF/PLANAF a/c can reach Australia with air refuellings.


I sure as hell cant think of a reason why i would say that??????



Su33 confirmed? I've heard that the J8F variants can fire the SD-10? Onboard radar range seems to indicate otherwise.


The Su-33 is all but name, just like the MRCA deal.

Here is a picture of the SD-10 J-8F combination
mil.jschina.com.cn...



So its a new stealh fighter AND a J-10 prototype? Or they're the same?Where does the TVC J10 come in then?


There are two competing firms,

Chengdu (611) and Shenyang (601). They are different, the improved J-10 is the one being refered to as the stealth twin engine aircraft and the Shenyang proposal is different. I imagine the TVC would be similar placement to the OVT



The number of chinese a/c you contribute to this foe is the number, you deduct from your Orbat. Either ways, you're dedicating aircraft to this theatre, and those a/c better be capable of dealing with the Mirage 2000s and F-16s that the ROC has. Note that these are also being upgraded and revamped.


A force of 200 BVR platforms and 200 older planes like the J-7E/G




posted on Nov, 17 2006 @ 11:01 AM
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Originally posted by chinawhite

I dont think all MKIs will be ready by 2015, so goes with the MRCA program, wasn't it license production instead of actually importing the aircraft. I used 2020 as my date because the MRCA will surely be finished by then while 2015 is just apossiblty considering the rate of the MKI and other indian programs, not to mention that the deal doesn't given seem to be over yet



What you think is irrelevant. MKIs are targeted to by done by 2015.Production rate 13-15 a/c a year. Check it up if you want.



It has already started with the J-10s and J-11 in the chengdu region and most likey continue towards Lanzhou next.


Lets get one thing straight: Where are LangZhou and Chengdu?
Both (ESPECIALLY Langzhou Mil region) are 1000km or more from the closest Indian territory,Arunachal Pradesh. Quite ironically, the distance between the arunachal border and Chengdu(closest BVR base you mention) is almost equal to the distance between Okinawa and the chinese coast!!

Lanzhou is atleast another 500km away.
Kunming is again at that same distance of ~1000km.
You are gauging deployments in these bases as a counter balance to the proximity of India.
That is a complement of sorts, but its seems otherwise.
Kunming is quite obviously positioned to act as a southern buffer bordering North Vietnam,Laos etc.
I'm not saying that these states are US satellites.. not at all; but the base is in my perception a southern buffer and NOT an Indian counterbalance.
At best it could serve a dual role in timesof crisis, but I feel its primary objective is a southern buffer.
Lanzhou actually borders Mongolia!! You're getting ahead of yourself.
Except for the 44th division in Kunming having J-10s I can see no perceivable BVR threat from India's point of view. Note that India doesn't have anything jazzy on this side either(except the bisons and a partial stationing of a MKI sqdrn).
My point something totally different though:
China cannot station a sizeable air superiority force on the Indian side, because it has a ~1000 strong BVR fighter force staring at it from the East! Add F-22s in the USAF(and possibly JSDF/SK AF) and you've got a serious problem there.

300 JSDF a/c;300 SK AF a/c;150 ROC AF a/c; 300+ USAF a/c(2/3 carrier grps included)
It can go ahead and station forces on the Indian side of course; But it would be stupid.



The ASEAN nations like thailand have extremely good relations with china. Even though they are so called allies of the US, doesn't mean they will fight or help America in a war

I was talking about nations like Singapore and the Phillipines.Others are more or less neutral(except for Malaysia maybe)



Kadena already supports one wing of F-15s and their associated supports. That is about 100 F-15s and other fighters. Its not really big to support the amount of fighters you are suggesting and will be targetted by strike aircraft as well as ballistic missiles. Once hostilities commence, Kadena will be first to be targetted


Depends on who targets what first!



Atsugi is about 900 miles, but you cannot say the japanese will join this war for sure. Their new president and their old president was looking to improve relations with china as well as.


Yep.. and Both have visited the Yakazuni Shrine..not a very common trait for Japanese PMs.
Are you crazy? Are truely trying to make me believe that he Japanese and chinese are buddies of sorts while India and China are sworn enemies?
On one side you have the JDSF helping the US in place like Iraq and you have incidents like the Song class surfacing and you still believe that the Japanese are not wary of China and not bum chums of the US?
What's even more preposterous is the fact that you think China has no animosity towards Japan!!
I'm sure you think China believes India to be more of a military threat than Japan!





- Japan has been a pacifist country for 50 years while India and Pakistan have not

Yet the primary foe for the JSDF is NK and China. It being pacifist doesn't mean it is a Switzerland sitting on the Fence!


- India and Pakistan have relations which make the "worsening" Japanese-chinese
relationship look like their at war.

Your opinion. Its a relative concept.



- China and japans relationship will improve over the next few years

Amen!!!
until somebody goes and visits some shrine!



- China and japan have never been in a war with their current governemnts.


Same with India and Pakistan..
Same with the US and Russia..
Same with Iraq and the US for that matter!
The permutations are limitless!!!
Absolutely irrelevant!!



- Japan and china have never stated they are secruity risks to each other\


I am going to refrain from quoting various links that show how Kozumi has slowly but surely converted the Japanese parliment intoa right-wing aggressive proactive and anti-chinese body. Abe is a result of that.



- Nuclear weapons ahve always been a detergent


strange.. I never would thought of that!!Imagine that big mushroom..soap bubble!!

The deterrence status is irrelevant to the is topic.



Japan and Chinas relationship is much like Russia and Chinas current one.


Put India and China in there as well.
Anyways I think your analogy is totally wrong.




But if you insist on the japanese and american alliance having some worth, then Russia will join in this senario as well. Read article 9 of the " Treaty of Good-Neighborliness and Friendly Cooperation Between the People's Republic of China and the Russian Federation "


Oh but only if you read numerous soviet and russian era treaties signed with India.
Are you going through all this trouble to try and convince me that the chinese do NOT perceive japanese military assets as a threat? That they'd be content at viewing the US in solitary and India as a more immediate threat?
You've got Chinese perception all wrong!!
Russia's relations with China and India are complex. They do not side with either government over the other.




I imagine in 5 years time, the south koreans will be closer to china bar formal treaties than to the US.


I imagine that you live in utopia.. Its more likely that South Koreans will get the F-22..and they might be getting it you know.
Again what are you trying to prove?
India bigger threat?

China stills needs to counter a 1000 a/c atrong BVR force on the eastern frontier.



I sure as hell cant think of a reason why i would say that??????

I can try and dig it if you want



The Su-33 is all but name, just like the MRCA deal.

Really?
We'll have to wait and watch



Here is a picture of the SD-10 J-8F combination


Any specs on this Type 1421 radar?




There are two competing firms,

Chengdu (611) and Shenyang (601). They are different, the improved J-10 is the one being refered to as the stealth twin engine aircraft and the Shenyang proposal is different. I imagine the TVC would be similar placement to the OVT


Interesting.. I never knew that..


The number of chinese a/c you contribute to this foe is the number, you deduct from your Orbat. Either ways, you're dedicating aircraft to this theatre, and those a/c better be capable of dealing with the Mirage 2000s and F-16s that the ROC has. Note that these are also being upgraded and revamped.




A force of 200 BVR platforms and 200 older planes like the J-7E/G

Thats 200 BVR platforms right there.
What is the flight sortie sustainibility for the J-7s?
Try and find that one out..One hour max I bet.
Or are they going to undertake one way missions to the island?
Are we still talking 2015-2020 btw?



posted on Nov, 17 2006 @ 11:53 AM
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Originally posted by chinawhite
What about the very possible event that the LCA program stalls again, would that make the MRCA more of a option.


That is exactly why the deal could have gone from 130 to 200.


Realisticly, the LCA program has not yet reached the end of the road where it has become a feasible program.

The IAF judges the feasibility of the LCA by ordering it or not.Its feasible as of today.
Whether its going to be an amzing operational success with all those gizmos and customisations;only time will tell..



The MiG-21 was and still is a light intercetor.

Please read up on the roles the MiG21 fullfills around the world
The IAF itself has the FL/M/MF/Bis/Bison versions out of which the M/MF are fighter bombers,and the Bis/Bison are rudimentary MRCA.




For its role as a MiG-21 replacement, it more than compensates for the MiGs lost but as a fighter for a future role to only carry such i small load for such a small distance.

Small load??!!
Sufficient for intended roles..



The MiG-29 had a larger range and was considered "light"

The MiG 29 had volumnar area greater than that of the F16 too..



posted on Nov, 17 2006 @ 08:30 PM
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Originally posted by Daedalus3
Check it up if you want.


I already know about the new target of 2015, i was making a point about induction of the production planes and not when production will be finished. Whats more important is the entry dates of the MRCA aircraft which you didn't answer



Lets get one thing straight: Where are LangZhou and Chengdu?
Both (ESPECIALLY Langzhou Mil region) are 1000km or more from the closest Indian territory,Arunachal Pradesh.


They actually both BOARDER india, which is 0km to the nearest indian territory



Kunming is about 750km away from the indian boarder



China cannot station a sizeable air superiority force on the Indian side, because it has a ~1000 strong BVR fighter force staring at it from the East!


No it doesn't, chinese views on foriegn policy is not to activitly confront countries and seek trouble. I see no edvidence that south korea will help the american forces let alone fight with them. Japan on the other hand has 300 BVR aircraft but they cant all fly to china let alone sutain these operations. You shoud check out how much tankers the japanese airforce has or the number of airbases the japanese have on their nearest island, Kyūshū. Or are you proposing that the japanese can sustain 300 aircraft on air operations over china?

And back to my opint about having no edvidence the japanese will even be involved in any conflict between the americans and chinese. If the chinese dont station fighters to counter the japanese, they japanese dont station fighters to counter the chinese.

Actual forces ahould be

- 200~300 ROC fighters
- 300+ USAF (3+ carrier groups)
- And the very very slightest possiblty of japanese fighters.



I was talking about nations like Singapore and the Phillipines.


Countries like Singapore and the Phillipines wouldn't have even thought of making air operations 100km beyond their boarders, let alone china thinking about a possible strike coming out from the direction. Not one chinese wargames has been to counter a AESAN country nor has one been developed to counter the south koreans


Are truely trying to make me believe that he Japanese and chinese are buddies of sorts while India and China are sworn enemies?


I am hardly making that point, i am saying that when china starts renewing for airforce fleet in the western areas of china. The total number of delpoyable fighters would number more than 150. It doesn't mean that china sees india as a threat but the forces along the indian border will number what it has always been numbered but will have improved capabilities like all airforcecs go through .The chinese still leave their boarders mostly un-guarded. The most militerised areas in china is its boarder with North Korea which is considered a friend.

I see japan as chinas most likey friend as well as south korea and russia. Japanese and chinese relations pre-Koizumi were extremely friendly. There are some good books in english about Deng Xiao opinoin about future sion-japanese realtions


until somebody goes and visits some shrine!


There is a difference between what Koizumi and what the japanese presidents have done. Its not just visiting the Shrine, its actually doing it as a public event. Other japanese prime ministers have visited the shrine with no problem because it was done in their own personal time. Mr Koizumihas made it as public event and thats what has got most asian nations angry about



I am going to refrain from quoting various links that show how Kozumi has slowly but surely converted the Japanese parliment intoa right-wing aggressive proactive and anti-chinese body.


Quote away



Are you going through all this trouble to try and convince me that the chinese do NOT perceive japanese military assets as a threat?


All #ries see other countries forces as a threat, even if they are allies (in the case of America, targeting friendly countries with nukes). My point is, china does not nessaryly act on every threat it has. Vietnam is a threat to china yet it has de-militerised the sino-vietnamese boarder. South Korea is a threat, yet we dont patrol the Korean coastline. Threats are everywhere, its how you deal with those threats that matter.

China is worried about japanese POTENTIONALLY re-arming in the FUTURE, which most articles will clearly indicted. Its not a threat from its current position. China does not need to counter all threats on its boarder and does not treat all potentional threats as actual threats. Why do you think china has been opening up its boarders since Mao and Nixons talks in 1971 even though they posed a potentional threat


I can try and dig it if you want


Please do, the only thing i do remember is talking about the Su-30MK2 range potentional or was that the Su-34


Any specs on this Type 1421 radar?


The Type 1492 is a new PD radar which was 75km track and two targets. They are round about figure but i had a picture of its specs at a military airshow. I have never heard of the Type 1421 but there has been some suggestion its for the J-10

To answer your question about the range, the J-7E has -

Radius: (Long-range interception with two AAMs and three 720 liter drop tanks at speed of Mach 1.5) 850km; (Interception with two bombs and three 720 liter drop tanks, lo-lo-hi) 550km
Range: ferry range 2,200km



posted on Nov, 17 2006 @ 09:31 PM
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Originally posted by Daedalus3
190MKI (Irbis AESA equipped)


The Irbis is PESA



posted on Nov, 18 2006 @ 03:36 AM
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DD3,

Here is a very recent photo of the proposed J-11B package

img226.imageshack.us...



posted on Nov, 20 2006 @ 12:19 AM
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Originally posted by chinawhite
I already know about the new target of 2015, i was making a point about induction of the production planes and not when production will be finished. Whats more important is the entry dates of the MRCA aircraft which you didn't answer

For that the only close approx. for us outsiders would be to judge what is the mean time between factory rollout and operational induction. Remember, its 190 a/c at a rate of 13 every year. If you put a operationalisational cycle of even 1-2 years for each a/c, the whole lot should be operational by 2017. Note that the a problem plagued a/c like the LCA is to achieve IOC in 2007. Licensed manufacturing has a much faster time to FOC .
The MRCA is still in the RFP stage. When the final supplier is selected(2007 max), we weill be in a better position to judge how many are being bought off-the-shelf and how many are being maunfactured. If the winner is MiG or Dassault, then obviously the procuction times will be exponentially faster than say the F-16,F-18,Eurofighter or Grippen. My 2015 timeframe still holds. The quick operationalisation of the eventual MRCA has indeed become an imperative for the IAF as stated by the current chief, esp. due to the delays and lobbying for the selection.






They actually both BOARDER india, which is 0km to the nearest indian territory





Thats all fine but please tell me what military assets IN Lanzhou are less than 1000km from the Indian border?
Its absolutely irrelevant that the 'region' may border India. Why the Chengdu and Lanzhou 'military regions' take up more than half of China!!
Bottomline except for Lhasa, there isn't anything remotely close(500-1000km) the India in terms of peacetime deployments. Yes, you may have airfields here and there(that too only on the plateau) but the infrastructural capabilities would be rudimentary at best.



Kunming is about 750km away from the indian boarder

I'd say 800 but its all the same. Also you're presuming that all distances are linear; and that the airspaces of countries like Nepal and Burma are for China's personal use. Neither country would want to open their airspace to hostile military aircraft from EITHER India or China, irrespective of their intentions. Whether these countries go ahead and do so covertly is another matter and is at a great risk of including a 3rd variable in the threat assesments of interdiction missions.
NOT recommendable at all.



I see no edvidence that south korea will help the american forces let alone fight with them.


Why are you looking for moral evidence? Isn't it worrying enough that there is a ~80000 american force in South Korea; That the US Army, USAF and USN actively operate from Korea? That there are undeniable military alliances between the two countries?
Hec even Pakistan and China do not have such overt military ties!!!
Using your logic regarding Japan and South Korea, I find no reason to believe that China will (in your words)

You've got to kidding if you believe that Japan cannot conduct air operations against the Chinese coastline. And about them all flying to China:..apples and oranges..
No force can continuously commit their entire strike force for forwad operations at all times; Not Japan, not China, not anybody!!
However this has absolutely nothing to do with strategic threat perception!!

You CANNOT base a threat perception on the assumption that you(China) will be able to actively deploy ALL strike assets continuously while your foes will suffer from logistical disadvantages!
You (any sane strategist) will obviously take into consideration, the entire strike force of your foes when you plan your own force deployments to counter balance.
You CANNOT say: "ok these guys have 300 fighters but they'll only be able to use say 100 due to logistical and tactical constraints"!!



You shoud check out how much tankers the japanese airforce has or the number of airbases the japanese have on their nearest island, Kyūshū. Or are you proposing that the japanese can sustain 300 aircraft on air operations over china?




And back to my opint about having no edvidence the japanese will even be involved in any conflict between the americans and chinese. If the chinese dont station fighters to counter the japanese, they japanese dont station fighters to counter the chinese.


huh??! while all the time japanese conduct military exercises with US in order to test their capabilities as a allied military force against threats that are very symmetric and conventional. Also there are repeated incidents in which these threats continuously test the Japanese military systems in an unprovoked fashion.



Countries like Singapore and the Phillipines wouldn't have even thought of making air operations 100km beyond their boarders, let alone china thinking about a possible strike coming out from the direction.


But these nations are US allies and are inclined to see an active US role in ASEAN so as the balance the growing chinese influence(read military as well as economic) in the region. They (ASEAN) look to India to play a similar role.


Are truely trying to make me believe that he Japanese and chinese are buddies of sorts while India and China are sworn enemies?




I am hardly making that point, i am saying that when china starts renewing for airforce fleet in the western areas of china. The total number of delpoyable fighters would number more than 150.


My point is that they never will, at least not BVR capable top line fighters like J-10,J-11,Su30 etc..
That may only happen if the US comes right upto the western chinese border through Afghanistan and the CARs. The SCO is formed to counter that.



I see japan as chinas most likey friend as well as south korea and russia. Japanese and chinese relations pre-Koizumi were extremely friendly. There are some good books in english about Deng Xiao opinoin about future sion-japanese realtions


Theoretically everyone can 'get along'.. Just doesn't happen in reality though. I call it wishful thinking..and that too just on your part;not the chinese strategic think tank.


until somebody goes and visits some shrine!



There is a difference between what Koizumi and what the japanese presidents have done. Its not just visiting the Shrine, its actually doing it as a public event. Other japanese prime ministers have visited the shrine with no problem because it was done in their own personal time. Mr Koizumihas made it as public event and thats what has got most asian nations angry about

Which other Japanese PMs have paid homage to these controversial shrines? It is not in Koizumi's hand to make it a public event. The fact that he did it when he was the PM is what made it sensational.Notably it shows a marked change in Japanese ideology.




The Type 1492 is a new PD radar which was 75km track and two targets.

And this radar can be used for the SD-10?!!



posted on Nov, 20 2006 @ 12:46 AM
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One of you is forgetting the US air bases in SK, Japan, Guam, Alaska and Hawaii, and the logistics the US can offer Japan in time of war. In any eventuality there will be more than US carrier based fighters.


[edit on 20-11-2006 by WestPoint23]



posted on Nov, 20 2006 @ 01:40 AM
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That person is saying that the bases in Japan and SK will not be allowed for usage against China by the respective govts..
And that he believes SK and China will have closer ties that SK and the USA sometime in the near future..
and so on and so forth..



posted on Nov, 20 2006 @ 02:03 AM
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Originally posted by Daedalus3
That person is saying that the bases in Japan and SK will not be allowed for usage against China by the respective govts...


If the current leadership in SK persists I can see this happening, but for Japan? Not likely. If China makes a move against a PACRIM nation Japan will allow US forces use of it's facilities.



posted on Nov, 21 2006 @ 07:58 PM
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Originally posted by Daedalus3
When the final supplier is selected(2007 max), we weill be in a better position to judge how many are being bought off-the-shelf and how many are being maunfactured.


The selection dates are still very varible, you cant say 2007 because there have been a lot of dates set for the MRCA. When the agreement is signed then we can discuss, but putting a deadline on such a project has proved to be futile.The MRCA was also imperative in the 1990s when the indians saw a sharp decline in the number of fighters they had. How much squardons did they have in the 1990's?. 30?. Unless they see any of these as a real threat, they would most likely wait until the best offer comes along.

The indians want a ToT and its not yet clear how much planes will be brought or how many will be directly imported or how many are knocked down kits. You would need to set up production facilities for new aircraft if they were foriegn and you would have to train staff. New production techniques for new aircraft and the fact that the aircraft vying for the deal are not even fully developed. The so-called MiG-35 is still in its prototype stage while the avonics that were destined for it have not even been developed yet.

The Su-30MKI was signed in 2000 and the best avaible time is 2015. A 15 year gap for a licensed production aircraft. Not even the deals that were signed with Russia for aircraft have arrived on time. The russians would also need to set up porduction to produce the MiG-35 because of the new airframe and technologies used. What about the Rafale F3 or the Eurofighter Tranche 3.




Thats all fine but please tell me what military assets IN Lanzhou are less than 1000km from the Indian border? Yes, you may have airfields here and there(that too only on the plateau) but the infrastructural capabilities would be rudimentary at best.


Kashi airbase is located roughly about 600~700km from India. Kunming is about 750km away from the indian boarder. Inlcuding Lhasa, there are three airbases facing india which hold more than 200 aircraft altogther, there are a lot of lesser airfields in operation as well. The Airport in Lhasa was actually the prominant airbase until they moved south of Lhasa and can be used as a airfield since its adjacent to the tibetian army headquarters

You mentioned that the "infrastructural capabilities would be rudimentary at best", what do you mean by that?


Also you're presuming that all distances are linear; and that the airspaces of countries like Nepal and Burma are for China's personal use.


I never said china should activitly take part in a war between india and pakistan. I was pointing out that India would ahve to deploy forces to counter the chinese which means that the IAF cant shift all their forces againest pakistan to gain a big ratio againest the PAF. 200 aircraft next to the Indian border is not going to go away and would ahve to potentionally prepare for chinese intervention. 2015 is a long way to think about and anything could change by then

Burma and China have a military pact, we supply them weapons and other aid, and they entitle us to some "benifits" like the cocos islands base. If war actually starts, china is not going to worry about what the Burmese government will say. They wouldn't attack china because of our secruity argremments anyway. Nepal is another story but what will they do?

In 2015, J-11 and J-10 are not going to be elite forces, but abundant and would become the mainstray of the chinese airforce


Isn't it worrying enough that there is a ~80000 american force in South Korea; That the US Army, USAF and USN actively operate from Korea? That there are undeniable military alliances between the two countries?


80000??????

There was roughly 35000 tropps in 2004 while another 12,500 will be withdrawn in the coming years. The Koreans are mulling the idea of no US troops in South Korea and their new treaty practically makes these US soldiers under the command of the Korean forces. The US soldiers being based in South Korea aswell as japan are funded by their tax payers and the South Korean governemnt forefits the majority of the cost with housing them .Of course there is a military alliance between these two countries, that is undenible. The level of the ties and commitment is the thing we are looking to in the FUTURE, and not the present tense.

The South Korean aircraft would not be in a position to conduct offensive operations into china. If South Korea is such a large threat to china with its 300 aircraft, why is the bulk of chinese forces positioned in the South. Why is their sparsely ANY airbases covering South korea. Why would there be more chance of conflict with South Korea than there is now when relations are moving in the opposite direction to aggresion?. When there are US aircraft in South Korea then there will be a problem but the aircraft there are basically transports


You've got to kidding if you believe that Japan cannot conduct air operations against the Chinese coastline.


They are not deployed to, they are not trained to, they are not even thinking about deploying their airforce on strike missions.


You CANNOT say: "ok these guys have 300 fighters but they'll only be able to use say 100 due to logistical and tactical constraints"!!


Can you name some airbases in china which are deployed to counter the Japanese or Korean airforces?. China not only sees them as very distant, they are see them as a large trading partner. Unless you want to lose trade when rattling your sabre or preparing forcces to counter other people, its not wise to do this in peace time. Thats one reason why the J-11 deployments, the Su-27/30/30MK2 and J-10 has been so widespread instead of concentrating on chinas east coast.

The chinese airforce is not just the only defense and works with the chinese ground based defenses to defend chinese airspace. The recent developments have been with the Western deployed divisions which ahve been upgraded to manuver divisions as well as the recent helicopter deployments


But these nations are US allies and are inclined to see an active US role in ASEAN so as the balance the growing chinese influence


The word ally implies a nation which is full heartly leaning to one side. But which side are they really leaning to in these cases?




Which other Japanese PMs have paid homage to these controversial shrines?


All of them starting have and even in 1980 when the Class A war crimminals were put in. What Mr Koizumi is doing is visiting it on important dates




And this radar can be used for the SD-10?!!


Yes and the R-27 and PL-11



posted on Nov, 22 2006 @ 02:50 AM
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Daedalus3, IDEAS 2006

Its reported to be the FC-1 inflight re-fueling pod




posted on Nov, 23 2006 @ 09:42 AM
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ahh.. forget it..
its a core difference of opinion..
only fighter numbers and sqdrn deployments could prove on of us correct.
I still feel the PLAAF cannot deploy more than 100 BVR capable fighters on the Indian side esp if we're looking at 800 BVR fighter in 2015..
If 1000 then possibly 150 on the Indian side, but I still doubt it.
China's force deployments have always been concentrated to the east coast and even to the north along the border with Russia. Infact China has more bases positioned for a Russian counter than an Indian counter.
Burmese relations are good with India as well except for the Aung Saan Su chi bit. We supply them we equipment too I believe. Violating sovereign airspace of a third party would severely complicate the situation for the violators. You cannot base your strategic military judgements on the same purely on goodwill,future perceptions of probable friendship etc etc..
Also the prominence with which you used chinese forces as a grave threat the India, while at the same time severely downplaying the analogous roles of Japan and South Korea vis-a-vis China is quite hypocritical anyaways..
As westpoint noted PACRIM states are obligated to act in unision.

That inflight refuel probe would make more sense if they had the tanker to go with it.
More so an inflight probe would make other countries like Israel raise an eyebrow rather than India.
The probe would certainly give the FC-1 a maritime advantage, but I doubt it is configured for sea operations.I doubt the FC-1 due to replace PN mirages?
FC-1 T/W ratio references are 0.9



posted on Nov, 26 2006 @ 03:18 AM
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Heres something interesting i came upon

Y-8 with balance beam radar


Here is a Picture of the Y-8 type AWACS aircraft which visited Pakistan a few months ago with a radome
img393.imageshack.us...
img207.imageshack.us...
img207.imageshack.us...



Pakistan, China agree to jointly develop AWACS



ISLAMABAD: Pakistan and China on Friday signed a memorandum of understanding for a long-term collaboration in defence production including development of an airborne early warning surveillance system.

The announcement came during the visit of Chinese President Hu Jintao to Pakistan. China has been the main supplier of military hardware to Pakistan for decades.

A statement from Pakistan's air force said the two countries agreed on collaboration and co-development of aircraft manufacturing and related fields.

Pakistan, concerned over rival India's growing defence capabilities, in May approved plans for the purchase of a $1 billion airborne early warning surveillance system from Swedish firms Saab and Ericsson to boost its air defences.
Defencetalk.com


[edit on 26-11-2006 by chinawhite]



posted on Nov, 26 2006 @ 08:54 AM
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Interesting esp since the erieye systems are almost exactly similar to the Y-8 config..
similar to the extent that Sweden(SAAB) agreed on the deal only on a set of conditions that would not allow the Erieye to come in contact with chinese personnel.
Don't knwo how they plan to enforce it but I read this in a JDW a few months back.



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 09:18 PM
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Heres some news which was published a week or two ago

- 8 FC-1 to be delivered to Pakistan in 2007
- Regular production begins in 2008
- Under $20 million a plane


JF-17 Thunder’s regular production by January
European and Latin American nations want to collaborate with Aeronautical Complex, says chief

By A H Khanzada

KARACHI: Air Marshal Khalid Chaudhry, the Chairman Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Board (PACB), Kamra, has saluted those who had established, built, enhanced and maintained by all means the PAC in the past and now taking the complex on the victory stand.

“We will acquire the first two JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft by March next year, while the remaining of the first batch of the eight aircraft will be arriving afterwards,” he said, adding that Pakistan would commence

regular production of JF-17 by January, 2008.

The aircraft would cost less than USD 20 million, which is one-third of the cost being charged in the open world market. “That’s why we call it a very attractive equipment for the developing countries having small air forces and small budgets,” he remarked.

The News International


EDIT: Added quotes



[edit on 27-11-2006 by chinawhite]



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 09:31 PM
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Aside from the arguing, this has become a very educational thread!

And here I was lead to believe from the Title that it involved poor old Gunga Din.



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