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Hispanic Activists Sue Over Illegal Immigrant Crackdown in Pa.

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posted on Aug, 17 2006 @ 11:29 AM
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Originally posted by Escrotumus
Now if that aint a play on words then I don't know what is. There are many things in life that aren't 'specifically' laid out for you, but it is common knowledge that you aren't allowed to do them. I'll try using that excuse the next time I am pulled over for speeding. I'm sorry officer, but it doesn't 'specifically' say that in your rulebook...

The fact that illegals are excluded can easily be determined by reading the passage directly before the only part that you seem to be interested in to further your own cause. Citizens and legal aliens ARE subject to the jurisdiction of the US, illegals are not, hence that pesky little word in bold illegal. Ill state it for you again:


You simply must be kidding. Further debate is pointless.




posted on Aug, 17 2006 @ 11:39 AM
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All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside.


The important part is the following line:

No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States

The passage you pasted defines what a citizen is and the one that I pasted says that no state can pass a law against this previously defined definition of a citizen. Since illegals are not citizens, then it is inferred that they do not share in these same protections that we as citizens are granted.

As for the rest of your argument, I would say that it is a very good idea in theory. Unfortunately, it would run up against too much opposition for many reasons that I'm sure neither of us could comprehend or agree with. Revitilization and the de-corruption of Mexico is ultimately the only effective cure for these problems, but since that will never happen, then strictly enforcing the laws and securing the borders is the best that we can do.

[edit on 8/17/2006 by Escrotumus]



posted on Aug, 17 2006 @ 11:42 AM
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You simply must be kidding. Further debate is pointless.


I am not kidding, and yes I agree that further debate with you IS pointless.



posted on Aug, 17 2006 @ 11:52 AM
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This is my first post and I am a non-native speaker so sorry for the spelling , the grammar and the length.

As an expat living in Thailand, let me share with you how it's managed over here.

1) Illegals/visa overstay: you are required to carry your passport at all time. If you are caught before the airport without a valid visa or overstaying your visa, you are jailed until you get a valid plane ticket plus the money to pay for the days spent in jail and the overstay fine. You share the cell with 10-15 inmates and you sleep on the concrete unless your friend brings you a blanket, you get very basic food and no medical treatment unless you can pay for it. Once everything is paid for, you are escorted to your plane and you are persona non-grata in Thailand (all offenders spending time in jail or paying over a certain fine amount are deported and blacklisted to prevent they ever come back).

If you are caught at the airport overstaying, you just pay the overstay fine, get a nice stamp in your passport and a status change in the database, which has consequences the next time you apply for a visa.

2) Work permits: only foreigner experts are allowed here, and tough requirements are applied to make sure no Thai can do your job. There is also a list of jobs forbidden to foreigners (such as law services, accounting, farming…) Your employer is also required to pay a certain amount of tax and to have a minimum number of Thais employed for each foreigner. A work permit allows you to work only at one place for a specific job. It's renewed yearly. Caught working without a valid work permit: huge fine and/or jail for the employer; jail, deportation and blacklist for you. Without a valid work permit and a proper visa, it's almost impossible to rent anything here.

3) 90 days reporting: every landlord, host or hotel hosting foreigners has the duty to report them to immigration, so passport, arrival card and, depending on the visa type, work permit have to be shown before renting. Failure to report the foreigner involves a huge fine for the landlord. The foreigner has to report where he or she stays every 90 days. Failure to report involves a fine and perhaps cancellation of the visa. If he or she leaves before the 90 days, this requirement falls.

To make all these checks, immigration maintains a database of all the entry cards numbers. If you entered illegally you won't have an entry card so it's impossible you'll get a work permit, and it's highly unlikely that anyone will rent you anything. If you forged your entry card, you will be tracked when the landlord report its number for the first time.

As far as the landlords are concerned, the situation is much more secure here than in the US: as long as they report the foreigner they are safe because the responsibility to check if the tenant is legit lies with immigration.

The above may sound tough but I must say I am quite happy living here. The locals don't have any problem with this either: the unemployment rate is almost inexistent and they have a feeling that their country is effective keeping the undesirables out.


Of course you can also stay as a tourist (max 90 days), as a retired person (over 50 years of age and minimum monthly amount coming from abroad) or as an investor (minimum investment amount) but you are not allowed to work and you bring money in.

To get some "exotic" inspiration, you can read some stories at www.thaivisa.com... (Thai visas, residency and work permits section)

Cheers.



posted on Aug, 17 2006 @ 12:05 PM
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David your post was excellent, concise and to the point. Welcome to ATS. If some of the people in this thread have a problem with the fact that America and 70% of its countrymen want strict enforcement of the immigration laws then I wonder what these people would think about your country? Sounds to me like a well oiled machine that keeps out troublemakers and leeches that would seek to use and abuse the system.


[edit on 8/17/2006 by Escrotumus]



posted on Aug, 17 2006 @ 12:26 PM
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Originally posted by Escrotumus
David your post was excellent, concise and to the point. Welcome to ATS. If some of the people in this thread have a problem with the fact that America and 70% of its countrymen want strict enforcement of the immigration laws then I wonder what these people would think about your country? Sounds to me like a well oiled machine that keeps out troublemakers and leeches that would seek to use and abuse the system.


[edit on 8/17/2006 by Escrotumus]


I would like to add a little bit to your last sentence.

Sounds to me like a well oiled machine that keeps out troublemakers and leeches that would seek to use and abuse the system, unlike in the US machine.



posted on Aug, 17 2006 @ 12:32 PM
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I would like to add a little bit to your last sentence.

Sounds to me like a well oiled machine that keeps out troublemakers and leeches that would seek to use and abuse the system, unlike in the US machine.


Well that much goes without saying! In fact, David's example of his country's immigration policy is pretty much the same policy of every rational country EXCEPT for the US. Go anywhere else in the world and sneak across the border, demand free healthcare, education, and welfare benefits from the country whose laws you broke by doing this in the first place and you will find yourself either jailed or shot. Only in America....



posted on Aug, 17 2006 @ 03:48 PM
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Not exactly on topic, but interesting.

Mexican Government has produced and handed out pamphlets on how to cross the US border and how not to get noticed/caught/arrested once in the US

Mexican Guide for Illegal Immigrants to US

In one part of the pamphlet on how not to get caught/arrested it says:


Avoid calling attention to yourself, at least while you arrange your stay or documents for living in the United States.



Avoid loud parties; the neighbors might be bothered and call the police and you could be arrested


Yeah, the Mexican government reeaally wants to help us with our illegal immigrants problem, don't they.




[edit on 17/8/06 by Keyhole]



posted on Aug, 17 2006 @ 09:06 PM
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Originally posted by 2stepsfromtop
Ahem:

Equal Housing


Sec. 804. [42 U.S.C. 3604] Discrimination in sale or rental of housing and other prohibited practices


As made applicable by section 803 of this title and except as exempted by sections 803(b) and 807 of this title, it shall be unlawful--

(a) To refuse to sell or rent after the making of a bona fide offer, or to refuse to negotiate for the sale or rental of, or otherwise make unavailable or deny, a dwelling to any person because of race, color, religion, sex, familial status, or national origin.
(b) To discriminate against any person in the terms, conditions, or privileges of sale or rental of a dwelling, or in the provision of services or facilities in connection therewith, because of race, color, religion, sex, familial status, or national origin.

(c) To make, print, or publish, or cause to be made, printed, or published any notice, statement, or advertisement, with respect to the sale or rental of a dwelling that indicates any preference, limitation, or discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, handicap, familial status, or national origin, or an intention to make any such preference, limitation, or discrimination.

(d) To represent to any person because of race, color, religion, sex, handicap, familial status, or national origin that any dwelling is not available for inspection, sale, or rental when such dwelling is in fact so available.


Nothing in there about discrimination because the people are using FAKE IDENTIFICATION or are in the USA ILLEGALLY. The Law should stand.


In fact, I would think that people using fake I.D. would be considered possible terrorists.



To add a little more to this, some troublemakers in Thailand recently complained about their "inequal" treatment to the constitutional court. The ruling of the court was then in short: "The Thai constitution is only for Thai people."

To make things clear and avoid such issues, you could maybe have your constitution ammended by adding something like:

"The present constitution only applies to US nationals and people residing legally in the US."

Then no more worries about discriminating against people who shouldn't be there in the first place.



posted on Aug, 18 2006 @ 12:09 AM
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I'm hispanic, came to the US legally over 20 years ago and I find these 'hispanic activists' very supressing to the efforts of those trying to come to this country legally. Shame on them.


apc

posted on Aug, 18 2006 @ 07:44 AM
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Originally posted by DYepes

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside.


There is a period at the end. That clause only states what defines an American citizen, not that American citizens are the only one entitled to these rights.


No but it does define what a citizen is. The next word choice of "person" instead of "citizen" obviously states that any person, foreign or domestic, legal or illegal, is entitled to due process of law. It does not mean they have the same rights as citizens. It just means they can't be executed on the spot (without a trial if the legal system were to suddenly decide to start doing this...).



Making them a state will also give us the ability to squash that rediculous Aztlan group once and for all and no more worries about reuniting the homeland BS.

Sounds like good ol' communist rhetoric to me. Tax the Hell outta them, and then deny them their freedom of speech. If we wanted to 'squash' the Aztlan, the best thing to do would be to leave Mexico as is and operate within the nation. If Mexico were a US state, the Aztlan would have just as much a right to exist as the KKK or Black Panthers.



posted on Aug, 18 2006 @ 08:03 AM
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To make things clear and avoid such issues, you could maybe have your constitution ammended by adding something like:

"The present constitution only applies to US nationals and people residing legally in the US."

Then no more worries about discriminating against people who shouldn't be there in the first place.


The amendment I pasted above already says that. The word citizen is defined very clearly and then it spells out that citizens have certain rights. Illegals are not citizens by this very definition. All the twisting and distorting of the amendment by those who would choose to support these lawbreakers does not make it any less clear to me or anyone else capable of rational thought.

I understand that we might have some very religious people on here that choose to do the Christian thing and help these people out regardless of the facts. The illegals know this and pray off of them. Even in the crusades there were priests and there were knights. Both were devout Christians capable of loving their God and acting honorably. The knights were tasked with the defense of the realm and protecting it from people who would seek to do it harm. I choose to be a knight myself while others here may choose to be a priest and help them out.

And as far as whoever made the comment about this being a made-up government issue so as to keep the sheeple concentrated on a non-issue---puhlease. I'm about as far from a sheeple as anyone can get. I live in the middle of illegalville. I'm watching my town being slowly ransacked and converted into little Mexico, so please don't assume to tell me that the issue of which we speak is actually some grand government conspiracy to keep us all occupied.


[edit on 8/18/2006 by Escrotumus]



posted on Aug, 18 2006 @ 10:30 PM
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The point about the term "illegal" is just what it means, it is AGAINST THE LAW. This isn't a new phenomena. Think about it. What else do we consider illegal? Sex with a minor, even though it is in our blood (look in the history books). Killing for your honor, dont see that happen anymore. We have these laws for a freakin reason. But, I also believe in the value of a human life. If these immigrants are running here and WANT to be citizens, then there is one place I will put them, in jobs of great importance to our life. Food production, military positions (not in active combat, but in the places of MORE importance, National Guard and Militias. If they are willing to not only teach their language AND learn ours, I have no problem with them living in this "formerly" Great Nation.

As long as they aren't slacking, making fun of us for being stupid, "Putos" or whatever that means or is spelled, and following the dream of this nation, I will be proud to fight for their freedom if they are willing to fight for it.



posted on Aug, 21 2006 @ 09:40 PM
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The idea that illegal immigrants are somehow causing us, citizens, some kind of hardship is ludicrous.


REPLY: The net loss to the American taxpayer per year, at present, is over $90 BILLION dollars. There are hospitals in California, near the border, that may have to close because of the illegals (criminals) are using the hospitals like it was their personal doctors office.

Land mines and CIWS systems on the border.


And then we have that much less border to protect....


REPLY: No ....... then we'd have to patrol the southern border of Mexico, which would be so much more difficult and much larger. We should use the same laws Mexico uses for their illegals.



posted on Aug, 22 2006 @ 08:08 AM
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Sure, anyone can pull numbers out of the air.

Here:

Q: What are the effects of illegal immigration on the overall U.S. economy?

A: There's no dispute that a larger pool of workers -- whether legal or illegal -- boosts gross domestic product. More workers means more output. More people means more consumers spending money on food, rent and a range of necessities and luxuries.

A better question is: How do immigrants affect the size of the economy per U.S.-born citizen?

"GDP per domestic person goes up," said James Smith, a senior economist at the Rand think tank in Santa Monica and lead author of the National Research Council's study "The New Americans: Economic, Demographic and Fiscal Effects of Immigration."

Since 1980, he said, all immigrants, including both undocumented and legal, have boosted GDP by $10 billion per year. "That's not to be sneezed at," he said. "On the other hand, we have a $10 to $11 trillion economy" so proportionately, it's a small impact.


Same source:

Q: How do illegal immigrants affect wages?

A: Some economists think undocumented workers drive down wages in low-skilled jobs. Some say that the effect is minimal and that a larger pool of low-skilled workers attracts new industries that can capitalize on them.

The most-cited study of immigrants hurting wages was published last year by Harvard economists George Borjas and Lawrence Katz. They found that illegal Mexican immigrants undercut wages for U.S.-born high school dropouts by 8.2 percent from 1980 through 2000.

"That's 40 cents an hour (less) as a result of 20 years of Mexican migration," said David Card, an economics professor at UC Berkeley. "In the several studies I've done over almost 20 years, if there are such effects (of lowering wages), they are very, very small."

His studies have compared cities with large immigrant populations to those with few or no immigrants. He found that wage differentials between high-school dropouts and more-educated workers were the same in cities, regardless of the size of immigrant population.

Hans Johnson, a demographer at the Public Policy Institute of California, thinks that immigrants do affect wages, but only minimally. Moreover, other factors besides immigration have undercut the market for low-skilled labor, he said. Those factors range from the loss of union jobs to globalization, which has prompted manufacturing to move offshore, and advances in technology, which require a more educated and experienced workforce.


How about facts and supported sources;

CALIFORNIA may seem the best place to study the impact of illegal immigration on the prospects of American workers. Hordes of immigrants rushed into the state in the last 25 years, competing for jobs with the least educated among the native population. The wages of high school dropouts in California fell 17 percent from 1980 to 2004.But before concluding that immigrants are undercutting the wages of the least fortunate Americans, perhaps one should consider Ohio. Unlike California, Ohio remains mostly free of illegal immigrants. And what happened to the wages of Ohio's high school dropouts from 1980 to 2004? They fell 31 percent.


Same previous source;

Other research has also cast doubt on illegal immigration's supposed damage to the nation's disadvantaged. A study published earlier this year by three economists — David H. Autor of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Mr. Katz of Harvard and Melissa S. Kearney of the Brookings Institution — observed that income inequality in the bottom half of the wage scale has not grown since around the mid-1980's.

Even economists striving hardest to find evidence of immigration's effect on domestic workers are finding that, at most, the surge of illegal immigrants probably had only a small impact on wages of the least-educated Americans — an effect that was likely swamped by all the other things that hit the economy, from the revolution in technology to the erosion of the minimum wage's buying power.


Give me a bit and I'll dig up some supporting facts on the actual affect on health care.



posted on Aug, 22 2006 @ 10:04 AM
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Concrete affects on health are actually difficult to find. I am fond of relying on factual evidence and not the rhetorical rantings of persons who get a hormonal kick out of issues of this sort.


Many illegal immigrants already avoid getting care from government offices because they fear being caught and deported, Nevin-Woods said. This month, Pueblo health workers struggled to locate a family that was thought to have been exposed to tuberculosis, a contagious disease that infected 14,517 people nationwide in 2004.

The law lets health agencies investigate disease outbreaks without verifying the immigration status of people that officials contact. But many illegal immigrants try to avoid any contact with the government.

“People will be frightened to check to see if they’re even eligible, because they feel once anyone in government finds out who they are, they’ll be deported,” Nevin-Woods said. “We’ll never know for sure, but we had a hard time finding the family. One wonders whether they’re just afraid to get back with us.”

Some worry that efforts to restrict medical care could have unintended consequences, such as encouraging the spread of disease and denying health care to U.S. citizens who lack the paperwork to prove citizenship. Experts also express concern that the efforts might not save much in tax money and could backfire in the form of higher long-term health costs.

source

I'd rather they get some health care. Last thing I would like to see is an epidemic.



Congressional Research Service immigration specialist Alison Siskin said studies have been unclear about immigration's impact on health care. "The studies are all over the place," she said, adding, "There are not studies that have shown rampant abuse."

source

I'm having trouble finding them too.


A Medicaid rule takes effect tomorrow that will require more than 50 million poor Americans to prove their citizenship or lose their medical benefits or long-term care.

Under the rule, intended to curb fraud by illegal immigrants, such proof as a passport or a birth certificate must be offered at the time a person applies for Medicaid benefits or during annual reenrollment in the state-federal program for the poor and disabled. Critics fear that the provision will have the unintended consequence of harming several million U.S. citizens who, for a variety of reasons, will not be able to produce the necessary paperwork. They include mentally ill, mentally retarded and homeless people, as well as elderly men and women, especially African Americans born in an era when hospitals in the rural South barred black women from their maternity wards.

source

This would be a poor result.


Legislation passed by the U.S. House of Representatives would not only make being in the country illegally a felony, but would also make it a crime to offer aid to illegal immigrants. This could lead to situations in which doctors might be prosecuted for caring for such patients.

“They are human too—are we just supposed to deny them care?” Cabral said.

source

Do we? Can we deny health care to human beings?



posted on Aug, 22 2006 @ 11:19 AM
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Originally posted by R3KR
This is just plain stupid. I dont think they have a chance in hell that they will win. Nice media coverage though. Did anyone know mexico hasnt decided who one the last election and there are two sides of the coin. One seems to be extreme.


Yep...one is right wing, while the other one is left wing bordering on communist.



posted on Aug, 22 2006 @ 11:27 AM
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Originally posted by mrmonsoon
We are talking about "ILLEGALS" they have no rights in the US.

Capture all of the illegals and dump them over the boarder into Mexico which they came from.
you do know you'd be dumping a very important part of your workforce?


Furthermore, Anyone who rents to them should go to jail-the property owner/operator.
People who rent them not necessarily know they are renting to illegals, why jail them?


Anyone hiring Illegals, should go to jail and their illegal workers sent back home-to Mexico.
Maybe legalize them would be smarter...


These stupid "illegal rights groups" are lame. For "legal" immigrants-fine-help and support them all you want with YOUR money/time and effort-not my tax dollars
Well, since those illegal immigrants bring loads of money to your country, they should get something in return...wonder where the US would be, if they had a "crackdown" on inmigrants during the 1800's...


Again, Illegals have no rights and if they don't like it GO HOME!!!!!!!!!
Ever heard of the KKK? Sure you have...



posted on Aug, 22 2006 @ 12:22 PM
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KKK? Here we go with the racist claims again. You are guilty of breaking Escro's Law. Just because some of us honor the US Constitution and respect the rule of law does not mean we are racists. Pulling the race card is the first ditch effort of the uninformed and unintelligent, and the last ditch effort of the people that know they are arguing a losing battle. Let's keep this thread on track and stow the racist comments.



posted on Aug, 22 2006 @ 01:55 PM
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Originally posted by Escrotumus
KKK? Here we go with the racist claims again.
There's a reason for them.


You are guilty of breaking Escro's Law. Just because some of us honor the US Constitution and respect the rule of law does not mean we are racists.
I would agree...if I didn't know that the term "illegals" now means hispanic, when there are loads of chinese, eastern european and middle east inmigrants going into your country through your North border. More so, it's saddenly ungrateful, since the US was once composed of "illegal" inmigrants, invading Indian and Mexican lands. Pulling the illegal card is just contradictory.

Pulling the race card is the first ditch effort of the uninformed and unintelligent
quite the contrary, I'm afraid.

and the last ditch effort of the people that know they are arguing a losing battle.
Battle? Where? Ooh...the battle against the evil inmigrants, which from your very country is composed...right...

Let's keep this thread on track and stow the racist comments.
Sure let's try...



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