Racial Profiling Of Muslims

After reading the posts in this thread I have to say I’m disappointed and now have no doubt that we are doomed to repeat history.

i30.photobucket.com...
April 1st, 1933. Nazis organzed a nation-wide anti-Jewish boycott.
Full translation here.

April 11, 1933 - Nazis define a non-Aryan as "anyone descended from non-Aryan, especially Jewish, parents or grandparents. One parent or grandparent classifies the descendant as non-Aryan...especially if one parent or grandparent was of the Jewish faith."

July 14, 1933 - Nazis pass Law to strip Jewish immigrants from Poland of their German citizenship.

Sept 29, 1933 - Nazis prohibit Jews from owning any land.

Oct 4, 1933 - Jews are prohibited from becoming newspaper editors.

Jan 24, 1934 - Jews are banned from the German Labor Front.

May 17, 1934 - Jews denied national health insurance.

May 21, 1935 - Jews are banned from serving in the military.

Jan 1937 - Jews are banned from many professional occupations

July 23, 1938 - Jews over age 15 have to apply for identity cards from the police, to be shown on demand to any police officer.

Oct 5, 1938 - Law requires Jewish passports to be stamped with a large red "J."

For more click here.


1940. A new movie in Germany "The Eternal Jew."



1943. "The Jew: The inciter of war, the prolonger of war."

Will we be killing 6 million Muslims before this is over?

Originally posted by Byrd

Originally posted by dgtempeI happen to think since the perpetrators of this entire terrorism mess (supposedly) are Muslims, i think they should definatedly racial profile these people.

"Racial profile" a Muslim? That's kind of like saying "let's go out and by-god racial profile the Christians!"

Muslims are Blacks. They're also Caucasians as pale as I am. They're also Hispanics. They're also AmerInd. They're also Pacific Islanders. They're also Australian... etc, etc. They're men and women and children.

It's a religion. Anyone can join -- and the "Shoe Bomber" is Muslim and he's as paleskinned and Joe Whitebread looking as George Bush.

You mean Reid the shoe bomber? i think you'll find he's not white if you take a look at his mugshot. you obviously have not been watching the news the past 2 years. plus, his photo is the icon for this very forum i believe.

Originally posted by picklewalsh
Well if were going to use racial profiling in the UK to help stop terrorism, I want all Irish people checked after all there is still a small group of people who would like to bring the IRA back. I would also like all Americans checked and any other nation that supported the IRA and other terrorists. OH i know why not just search people, regardless of race or colour, it would make things so much safer.

And no this isn't a Anti US or Anti Ireland post, i was just making a point.

Well picklewalsh, when I travelled in Europe in the 1980's I was scrutinized very carefully because of my looks and my last name. At the time I was in my 20's, 6'-2" with bright red hair and an Irish last name.

What I find hilarious with this subject is that no matter what the Police or Security people do there will be fault found with it. How many news reports heve you seen ridiculing airport security because they made some 70 year old lady or some 5 year old child submit to extra checks? If they single out those who fit the statistical evidence they are accused of profiling. If they check a statistical cross section of those who travel then you have the stories that I referred to.

There was a quote made several years ago that pretty much sums this up. A news reporter asked an anti-terrorism expert why security was so tight several weeks after an incident. His reply was "The terrorists only have to get lucky once. We have to be lucky all of the time.".

Originally posted by Guy Fawkes
After reading the posts in this thread I have to say I’m disappointed and now have no doubt that we are doomed to repeat history.

WHAT a poor analogy. the nazi propaganda was based on lies mostly, though there may be some truth to jewish involvment in bankrolling the russian revolution and supporting communism in the east. of course, most the fathers of communism were jewish and this caused hitler to hate them even more.

IN the 1930s the jews were not flying planes into Berlin office blocks or attempting to blow up civilians every few mths as now appears to be the norm. there religion did and does not teach "j"ihad and does not have an apocalyptic world view. they were (and still are) a very small group compared to the size of the islamic faith.

WHAT you fail to grasp is that this isn't merely racial/religious profiling - but sensible, logical (and PC-less) crime investigation and prevention. we are looking for a particular 'fit' based upon past events - the majority (not all, but a good 90%) of terrorists are male, muslim, and of arabic/persian/southasian descent. and (why do i need to state the obvious) all islamic terrorists happen to be muslim - the majority (i'd say 99%) are male and of the same ethnicity described supra. though there have been a few women (more of you count suicide bombers in israel) and a few blacks too.

I would defy anyone here to post a photo/mugshot of an islamic terrorist who is not arab/mideastern/southasian/persian etc. i think think of maybe one, and that's the padilla guy arrested in the US who is hispanic i think. there are hardly any.

IF you are a cop and some witnesses tell you that they saw a tall blonde woman in her 50s rob the bank, you are going to be looking for that profile.


Mod Edit: Big Quote – Please Review This Link.


[edit on 16-8-2006 by mrwupy]

I wonder how many people on this thread have actually been stopped and harrassed due to racial profiling. Does anyone know how humiliating it is to be judged based on skin color or clothing?

Edit:
Just because most terrorists are 20 something Muslims, doesn't mean most 20 something Muslims are terrorists. As a matter of fact, I'm sure the number is a small percent, just a very vocal one. Once again I pont out that by the very same logic, I can assume all white people are klansmen until I search them, or interrogate them, and find otherwise.

[edit on 16-8-2006 by Rasobasi420]

Originally posted by jackvance88
no, profiling may not "feel" cozy, but it is logical. anyone who thinks otherwise does not have the education and logical thinking patterns necessary to ever make a decision on the subject.

Usually when I see an 88 in people’s internet names I give them the benefit of the doubt that they don’t realize that 88 for HH or Heil Hitler.
However, with your boasted higher intelligence it is pretty clear that you would know such a thing. (Though it is a shame that an educated man like your self doesn’t use capitol letters.)

So thanks for the neo-Nazi point of view. David Duke would be proud to see your influence on a big board like this one.

Originally posted by thesaint
Im all for makiing it safe and performing the neccasary checks but if this comes into action i can see relations between ourselves and Muslims getting out of hand

This is very true.....but the "radical" Muslims brought this unto themselves and it is the responsiblity of EVERY NORMAL MUSLIM to root out these insane radicals.

For any Muslim who knowingly ignores a "radical muslim" and sees what they are doing is just as guilty as the "radical" himself. For too long the Muslims of the world have turned a blind eye to the crazies that have infected their religion and now they are paying the price for their complacency. This could be seen coming a mile off yet the Muslims of the world did or do nothing to stop the insanity of their "radical" brothers and for that I believe the profiling is deserved.

Originally posted by Guy Fawkes
Usually when I see an 88 in people’s internet names I give them the benefit of the doubt that they don’t realize that 88 for HH or Heil Hitler.
However, with your boasted higher intelligence it is pretty clear that you would know such a thing. (Though it is a shame that an educated man like your self doesn’t use capitol letters.)

I didn't even notice the 88, maybe we should hold this one for questioning.

Jake, how do you feel about Abraham Lincoln? Remember to think about your answer carefully. The wrong one could land you in Guantanimo.

I support any type of profiling for tracking down criminals. Here’s why…
Did you know that the police often use the distance from where various crimes have been committed to track down criminals? You know say 7 knife crimes-murders, muggings all occur within a 4 mile radius. But surely the PC indoctrinated should to ask: “Isn't this distanceist?”
I mean it’s unfair on the people living there right? You could be an 80 year old grandmother sitting in a second floor flat; and now all of a sudden you have to contend with more police vehicles using up parking places. Disgusting isn’t it?
Then again I suppose saying she’s an 80 year old grandmother sitting in a second story flat doesn’t mean she isn’t the serial killer right? It’s known that many old people have a lot of mental problems (profiling 1) and may feel alone, isolated and hostile towards others (profiling 2). Then again the good news is that because she lives within a 4 mile radius of the killings she might at least be more likely to be picked up (profiling 3).

Personally I believe U.S arms exports to countries like Israel pose a greater threat to world peace than terrorism. But I also think that the absence of a nationwide 2 mile an hour speed limit endangers my life more than, some old man eating a goat in a cave, as he dishes out instructions to the CIA (and reads the Financial Times!!).
But statistically (another dangerous word); a 2 mile an hour speed limit would waist more hours of my life than that dished out by the possible terrorist threat. Then again we can’t be certain can we? You could be sitting on a plane dying over the fact you were sitting next to someone with a 20 million dollar bounty on their head (then you loose all the hours of your life).

But Seriously...
The only real argument I can see against the racial profiling of Muslims is that it could make them feel even more alienated.
But there’s a lot of black people who feel alienated, and they don’t go blowing themselves up with half a ton of Semtext. But if the problem with suicide bombers was that they simply felt alienated then I could see why racial-cultural profiling would be counter productive.
So perhaps the difference between black men who have suffered racial discrimination and Muslims who have suffered the same is that black people don’t have to contend with the fact that their European “brothers” have occupied one of their countries like Iraq where over 7000 civilians died in Baghdad alone, in this July 2006 (alone), all because of the chaos we have unleashed by removing a secular dictator who at least kept order. Then again black people have suffered far worse crimes at our hands (particularly if you go back more than a hundred years).
So perhaps the real (terrorist) problem is not just what our foreign policy does to Muslims, or the way society discriminates-alienates them. Instead perhaps it’s merely the existence of extremist branches (of an otherwise peaceful religion) that follows concepts which were last fashionable at about the time the dinosaurs became extinct?
If so I find it hard to see how airport passenger, racial profiling is really going to make that much of a difference to medieval extracts turned upside down. Especially as the terrorists sub-religions have already shown themselves to be quite capable of recruiting well educated; well to do Muslims (who have rarely ever suffered discrimination) as they are capable of recruiting people from the ghetto.
At the end of day suicide bombers become bombers because they think its something they do for others. If they had a problem with someone who discriminates against them its hardly going to be the top of the agenda in their suicide mission; on the other hand our foreign policy will be; and (as the comparison between black and Muslim men shows) their indoctrination will be the route of it. I think believing blowing yourself up on a plane with men, woman, and children is the right will alienate you infinitely more than an airport que; and I think recruitment is largely independent as it is both a political, social, and twisted religious argument.

If we don’t use racial profiling then the terrorists have once again demonstrated what an obstacle the PC indoctrinated are to our society, economy and global position as a first world nation. They may laugh in their caves because by endangering our own peoples lives we do not take the moral high ground; only the weak and politically cowardly one.

Originally posted by Alpha Grey

Originally posted by thesaint
Im all for makiing it safe and performing the neccasary checks but if this comes into action i can see relations between ourselves and Muslims getting out of hand

This is very true.....but the "radical" Muslims brought this unto themselves and it is the responsiblity of EVERY NORMAL MUSLIM to root out these insane radicals.

For any Muslim who knowingly ignores a "radical muslim" and sees what they are doing is just as guilty as the "radical" himself. For too long the Muslims of the world have turned a blind eye to the crazies that have infected their religion and now they are paying the price for their complacency. This could be seen coming a mile off yet the Muslims of the world did or do nothing to stop the insanity of their "radical" brothers and for that I believe the profiling is deserved.

When you put it like that i can quite agree.

I didnt open this thread with the intention of defending the Muslims but more to focus on the possible consequences this could have on neighbouring communities however some good points have been made in this thread.

I imagine this could further the distance between the "Decent" Muslims and ourselves when we really need their help in rooting out the bad eggs so to speak.

I think if this is actioned at airports etc it could spark a new recruitment of young radical muslims prepared to blow us up in return for what they will no doubt label as racism and victimisation.

Its a very unstable weighing scale and trying to get the balance right for the benefit of non muslim and muslim people without causing riots, further attacks is a task in itself.

[edit on 16-8-2006 by thesaint]

Sooo...
When an officer stops me on the street, searches me, and smacks me around for asking too many questions, should I blame the black guy who's "profile I fit"?

That's the lovely thing about te police state. When it comes, the people will be all for it. After all, it's for their own good.

Originally posted by afeent1
If we are really going to get serious about airline security, then we will need to adopt Israel's El Al screening process. EVERY passenger is literally grilled with 30 minutes of questioning.

Well, the problem is one of logistics, and also of relative danger.

First, the relative danger aspect:

Israel sits in the middle of a hotbed of terrorist activity and global violence, and is also populated by what has historically been the race most often targeted for extinction. To be honest, I'm surprised that it's only a 30 minute grilling process.

In America, however, we share only 2 borders: Canada, with whom we are friendly, and Mexico, also with whom we are friendly.

Israel gets missiles launched at it by terrorists on a regular basis. They get suicide bombed on a daily basis.

America, on the other hand, averages one terrorist attack every few years.

Israel is actively hated by its neighbors as well as a good portion of the rest of the world, and even some of the members of its military allies.

America, on the other hand, is largely liked, feared, or disliked, but most of the people who actively hate America live overseas (or in the White House, *rimshot*)

So as far as relative potential danger tp people boarding a plane in Israel vs. people boarding a plane in America, I'd say there's really no comparison. America is like 10 times safer, when you look at the facts and not the perception.

I should also point out that in addition to the 30 minute grilling process, I'm led to understand that Israeli passenger planes have uniformed guards with automatic weapons on each flight. THAT would be a HUGE deterrant.

Second, logistics.

www.bts.gov...

The average number of U.S. domestic and international airline passengers, per month, is 64 million, with an average number of flights hovering around 900 thousand, and an average number of passengers around 80 per flight.

Now, just purely from a per flight perspective, 30 minutes worth of grilling for every passenger for every flight would take 40 worker-hours to complete. Now in order to constantly accomodate 1250 flights per hour (which is again what it averages out to), with a 30 minute grill time, you have to somehow fit 40 worker-hours into thirty minutes, 1250 times.

That's 100,000 people, nationwide, working constantly, around the clock, doing nothing but grilling passengers before they board. However, people are not machines, they need sleep, vacation, etc, and the average business has to have at least 4 shifts to cover all hours, and usually overstaffs an additional shift worth of people to cover the gaps left by sick days, vacation days, etc.

So you're looking at anywhere from 400,000 to 500,000 employees, whom require very extensive and expensive training, whom can be trusted not to abuse their power, whom are able to get Security Clearance (which takes thousands of dollars and sometimes years to attain), whom not only produce zero revenue, but are actively discouraging business and upsetting customers. AND they have to be paid well enough to prevent them from considering bribes.

To put that in perspective, you would need a THIRD of the size of McDonald's GLOBAL work force, just to interrogate people for half an hour before boarding a flight in America.

Originally posted by Guy Fawkes
After reading the posts in this thread I have to say I’m disappointed and now have no doubt that we are doomed to repeat history.

(snip)

Will we be killing 6 million Muslims before this is over?

No, Guy, I honestly believe we won't. I asked myself that a few times over the last couple of years and even thought about it yesterday while driving home. No one said America was perfect or that it handles every situation with the ideal amount of balanced consideration for humanity, liberty, and security whenever a crisis arises. However, we're getting a little bit better at it each time.

When America first become a nation, its first racial target were the Native Americans. They were slaughtered in ways and numbers that would command respect even from holocaust survivers, if they knew. Next was the Mexicans, who were usually just shot or hung. Then later were the blacks who were hung, but not as openly, and usually only sickos like the KKK were involved. Then suddenly the Japanese (well, any Asians, really) got thrown into camps and had their property taken, but were not actively slaughtered. Then anyone who was suspected of being a communist was merely arrested and/or blacklisted from employment. Later gays were simply ostracized and occasionally beaten up. And now we've arrived at Middle-Easterners, and their hazing consists of being delayed for a bit at the airport and people wondering if they're packing explosives.

So if you think about it, we really have come a LONG way. I'm not by any means condoning mistreatment of any minority. I happen to be Native American. Most of my tribe was wiped out by Abraham Lincoln's orders on the same day he signed the Empancipation Proclamation for no more reason other than the fact they'd sent a protest about being forced from the Great Lakes to Okla-frickin'-homa. So please understand when I say America, as a nation and government, has REALLY come a LONG way in their treatment and discretion when dealing with a profiled people.

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
Also, Id like to know why mexicans and puerto ricans refer to themselves as "Latinos' since its their native side they are proud of and not the european and hence "latin" ancestry?

Obviously you have not taken the time to see from where the Latino came from is actually from the romance languages and Latin was the language from were Spanish was born.

Latino is actually a language base and people that speak Spanish.

Latin America is mostly from where Spanish is mostly spoken.

But many groups claim Latino as a race on its own looking for identity and completely has change the meaning of the word.

I know my roots and I know my heritage and I can tell you this much We latinos are not a race but a mix of many I am proud of it too.

So I careless about some spanish speaking groups wanting to make it into a racist issue, because I know my history.

[edit on 16-8-2006 by marg6043]

Originally posted by Byrd

Muslims are Blacks. They're also Caucasians as pale as I am. They're also Hispanics. They're also AmerInd. They're also Pacific Islanders. They're also Australian... etc, etc. They're men and women and children.

It's a religion. Anyone can join -- and the "Shoe Bomber" is Muslim and he's as paleskinned and Joe Whitebread looking as George Bush.

I think you nail the issue very well. . . if searches are going to be conducted then let it be all of us Innocent and guilty alike.

No just a group and a name tag to it . . . make it equal for all.

if all muslims are dead, there will be everlasting peace. Imagine a world without arabs. I think we should push forward a smart racial profiling scheme and put an extra-line up for muslims only which will search their bags extensively and look into their backgrounds. i think this will ensure safety for a really long time and it will definitly kill off their need to terrorize everyone. And maybe in the future we could ban muslims from earth and ship them to mars. ya #'em. let them play mr. suicide bomber in the red sand. And ya i'm muslim and i wanna get the # outta here.

Originally posted by Dioxholster
if all Muslims are dead, there will be everlasting peace.

I am going to guess that you are only been sarcastic.

Because I see that you completely are unawared that Terrorist has been around even before Muslin and middle east became an issue.

Your post kind of make me think of how many people in the US still think that Saddam was the mastermind of 9/11 and the reason US invaded Iraq

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
I wonder how many people on this thread have actually been stopped and harrassed due to racial profiling. Does anyone know how humiliating it is to be judged based on skin color or clothing?

(snip)

...I can assume all white people are klansmen until I search them, or interrogate them, and find otherwise.

YES, as a matter of fact I DO.

I look white. Despite being a CDIB-card carrying Native American, having an entire branch of my family that's black, genetic roulette determined I would inherit the apparent genes of my Scottish, Irish, and Jewish ancestors.

My family never owned slaves through its history as far back as we've traced all branches (and we're pretty deep into the geneology). My father and mother taught me to treat women with respect as equals, and I treat my wife as my partner and equal say in all things. My entire genetic makeup is the result of people who were shat upon by oppressors in one region of the globe or another.

Yet what do "minorities" think when they look at me? The think I'm the cause of the world's problems. They think I'm the one holding them back. They think I'm the slave-owner. They think I'm the KKK member. They think I keep women beneath the men. They think I am an oil-thirsty tyrant. And I won't even begin to tell you what they say about white people's physique.

I can't even fit in at the annual powwow for my tribe, because I look like a bloody white male tourist. I have to wear a shirt that lists my ancestory before they'll even talk to me, unless they've met me before.

I have been judged an oppressive racist chauvenist pig every goddamned day of my life for looking like a white male. Do I know what it's like to be judged? You bet your ass I do. And so does everyone else on Earth. That's how humans are. It's an intrinsic xenophobic trait that humans have not yet evolved past.

This, however, is not judging someone from the color of their skin. This is a matter of national security. When 95%+ of terrorists and people making active threats and plots against innocent United States Civilians look like Profile A, then it is only logical that Profile A is going to be under more scrutiny in a situation where innocent American lives are on the line. Once they begin to look like Profile B the vast majority of the time, they will proceed to ignore A and focus on B.

It sucks! It really sucks. There's no way anyone wants this (except, perhaps, the terrorists). But what other options would you suggest beside logical criminal investigative practices? What can you suggest that will not only speed up the process, but completely avoid inconveniencing anyone and keep everyone's feelings from getting hurt, and still manage to stay within an acceptable cost-range AND allow for timely travel?

So the Final Solution is to judge people based on their race, religion and place of origin.


Yep, sounds like the final solution to me.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
I wonder how many people on this thread have actually been stopped and harrassed due to racial profiling. Does anyone know how humiliating it is to be judged based on skin color or clothing?

Edit:
Just because most terrorists are 20 something Muslims, doesn't mean most 20 something Muslims are terrorists. As a matter of fact, I'm sure the number is a small percent, just a very vocal one. Once again I pont out that by the very same logic, I can assume all white people are klansmen until I search them, or interrogate them, and find otherwise.

[edit on 16-8-2006 by Rasobasi420]

Great post. I figure many in the US are forgetting the "innocent until proven guilty" motto. For one, merely suspecting someone of a crime isn't evidence enough to find them guilty. People are are stating that "all" terrorists fit into the same mold, and yet I can easily prove any of their "molds" wrong. My challenge to anyone here who believes racial profiling will work, please post a real life image of someone you would stop at an airport, if you were the security. Others also forget that by advocating religious profiling or racial profiling, the Supreme Law of the Land (the Constitution) is broken.

I see many bring up the "terrorist granny on an airplane" arguement, but you fail to see that terrorism can occur in any age group, any faith and belief, and anyone. There are still people in hate groups like the KKK that are in their 60's,70's, and 80's who would still kill blacks if they had the opportunity to do so.

Raso, I live in the south and there are numerous times when KKK members still get involved in terroristic acts. A week after the 9/11 incedent, a group put a shot gun to my chest for supporting Islam, rather than hating Arabs and Muslims. I wasn't killed that day, but I knew from then on that there would be a backlash against Arab looking people, while all other terrorists like the KKK and gang members would go free. To all who think that profiling will work, you're wrong. Another kind of person like Timothy McViegh or Seas of David will thank you for letting their kind get off without suspicion.

[edit on 16-8-2006 by DJMessiah]

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
So the Final Solution is to judge people based on their race, religion and place of origin.


Yep, sounds like the final solution to me.

No, it's not a final solution by any stretch.

A final solution would be for people to get over their religious, racial, and homeland differences and realize that, until actions prove otherwise, every human should a right to go on living their life as they please.

Now to do that, there's a whole lot of people that are going to have to change.

Until then, people have to make due with the imperfect tools that they have at their disposal to attempt to prevent further loss of human life against people who think other people shouldn't exist.